Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]
- Thread starter Navarro
- Start date
Navarro
Well-known member
What do you think are being blown up from the air by US warplanes? The BOS already has a lot of bunkers, they're pretty much their basis for maintaining control over territory much the same way as castles did in feudal Europe. The problem they're really facing is that the people they're governing don't see themselves as part of the BOS, there's no BOS "nation" to rally around the flag for. Whereas NCR and E-US are modern day states driven by nationalism, the BOS aren't. Which makes them especially fragile against a sudden blitzkrieg-type attack.
It's civil labour, not military, and similar to pre-existing E-US (and US IRL) systems of prison labour - their POW camps are similar in many respects to their minimum-security prisons. Not to mention the use of POW labour in WW2 by the WAllies (forced POW labour is legal under the Geneva convention).
The problem is that he's running up against time. If he doesn't try to control how the truth gets out, the truth will get out anyway in an uncontrolled way, which may have worse consequences for the NCR (and for his political career). And, as the extract I've given of his speech shows, he is trying to pivot.
Definitely. But this is to a large extent what happens in major wars - look at WW2 for instance, which saw new models of tank developed continuously during the war by all powers. And a lot of these are designs already in advanced development or that were already designed (w/ mockups and prototypes and all) and lost out for some reason or other before being called back into service.
Lithium deuteride, the same stuff used for H-bombs IRL. As for your comment on NCR mini-nukes, [REDACTED].
Technically they're overperforming, a WW2 or IRL modern army in the same situation - out of position when your staging areas are suddenly blitzed - would have already been encircled and overrun. Instead they've managed to pull off a defence in depth that's bleeding the enemy.
Heheheheh yeah it's a nice break from Bethesda Fallout designs. The only good ones of those are the ones where they're directly aping real tech, something in FO1-2, or the laser rifle and marine armour.
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SuperHeavy
Well-known member
The sun may one day grow cold but I will remember what they tried to pass off as a tank in Fallout 4 forever.
Navarro
Well-known member
Especially compared to E-US which has been using propaganda as one of its main weapons for decades and has centuries of experience in it, all the way down from William Randolph Hearst's yellow journalism. Even by Autumn Morning times they had a substantial machine operating, and it's only gotten better.
Navarro
Well-known member
Which is part of why the NCR is keeping on the attack continuously, forcing US artillery to constantly disperse its firepower to deal with broad-front attacks on US positions. They also have less shells than they'd like due to limitations on resupply - while sea and air are still viable, the NCR has cut off land routes.
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Big issue with large artillery parks like what the NCR is using...You can really screw with your own fires...by launching so much in such a tight area.
Additionally, any return fire will likely hit something important. There's so much there that secondary explosions will likely also claim multiple assets...if you don't have an outright catastrophic cascade.
As for continuous fire...that's a myth. An artillery park simply can't keep up continuous fire against dispersed assets. They don't have the sheer damage-spread unless you're just launching nukes. In this exchange, the dispersed, highly mobile assets will deal more damage than they take.
Next problem for the park, even if they want to 'pop smoke', they have the sheer congestion of all the other assets to deal with. It's a very non-trivial thing to move that much metal along roads/trails.
OK, and that will work...until you just can't. You run out of bullets, or gas, or armor, or just energy, and your troops simply start taking too long to make the charge...or get to cover...or sight in the enemy.
Being on the attack take SO much more out of the combatant then staying in cover and holding in place.
Yes, the attackers can set the pace, but only for so long. And I didn't think the NCR had the kind of numerical superiority in place to keep these attacks up and running for a long period of time. By this I mean more than a few days.
Any EUSA force that survives the initial onslaught is probably going to be able to handily clear their area of concern once that happens.
Also, I'm just waiting for a Rod-From-God or nuke to drop on that big-ass artillery park.
IIRC the EUSA has some, and they're supposed to be pretty efficient at destruction.
Navarro
Well-known member
They're viable, the gov't just isn't willing to pay the expense. Like how two separate projects to replace the M109 with a superior artillery piece fell through because the Bush and Obama admins decided they would be too expensive
Navarro
Well-known member
Honestly they're a mix of IOM and Tau. IOM's emphasis on firepower, use of power armour, willingness to be more brutal than others (a lot more restrained than 40K) and willingness to get stuck in mixed with the Tau's mobility and precision.
Info: PA Models in US Service
Navarro
Well-known member
Placards from the American Museum of Technology Powered Combat Armor Exhibit
T-45
The First powered combat suit to see service, developed in response to the Chinese invasion of Alaska. T45 saw field deployment through most of the Third World War, though it suffered from a critical flaw - its fusion-core based power system could only handle approximately eight hours of activity before the core ran dry and it needed to be replaced. As such, the hard limit on the length a T-45 suit could be used made it less useful as an offensive weapon than its successor. After the invention of T-51, T-45 suits were distributed to National Guard units throughout America as they were replaced on the front line.
As a result, they have been used by rebel factions and raiders across United States territory. The Brotherhood of Steel in Washington D. C. used this suit en masse in their attempt to capture or destroy the Project Purity water treatment system developed by the US government working with local scientists. The severe tactical limitations this placed on them was one of the factors, most historians agree, that led to their defeat. However, T-45 derivatives have seen a long afterlife in civilian applications; such as mining, construction, riot police duties, warehouses, and extreme sports.
T-51
The T-51 was superior to the T-45 primarily due to its improved protective capabilities and its incorporation of a purpose-built microfusion reactor capable of lasting for hundreds of years without maintenance or refuelling. T-51’s main improvement was the improved tactical and operational mobility it gave power armoured units, enabling them to operate in the field for much longer periods, advancing further and faster. As such, the T-51 suit was critical to the Yangtze campaign and General Chase’s final breakthrough on the Anchorage Frontline. Very rare on the east coast due to most units being deployed to China, many however were in transit facilities and military warehouses on the West Coast and have since been stolen by various rebel organisations.
This vacuum-sealed, jetpack-equipped model saw service in orbit and on the Sea of Tranquility front during World War Three and was recovered during the evacuation of US Continuity of Government Base ELECT.
T-60
An attempt to repurpose T-45 suits by reequipping them with the microfusion reactor of the T-51, the T-60 saw testing by National Guard units in the Atlantic and New England Commonwealths before the atomic war. Not truly a mark of power armour in its own right, the T-60 program was cut short by collapse of US government control over large areas of US territory.
This exhibit is one of the few that was not scrapped for parts and melted down after its recovery by US forces.
T-67
The next generation of power armour to be developed pre-War, work on T-67 was greatly delayed by the atomic war of 2077. President Richardson was a key figure behind the resumption of development of the suit in the early 23rd century; however, no more than a few hundred were ever made due to complex production processes and shortages of raw materials. The heavy collar was a key factor in improving protection over the T-51, but proved to take up excessive amounts of materials. Most, it is presumed, were lost in the fall of Navarro or captured by rebel forces. T-67 innovated in having multiple systems intended to improve a soldier’s ability to stay in the field, and in being the first suit to incorporate a ceramic/metal composite construction. A Mark 2 was in development just before the destruction of Control Station Enclave. All known prototypes were lost, but surviving schematics allowed the US Army to develop the T-72.
T-72 ‘Black Devil’
The most common powered armour system in use today, T-72 ‘Black Devil’ suits (originating as a nickname given by the Brotherhood in D.C.) were designated X-02 in their field testing phase during the fighting to reclaim Washington D.C. Representing a stripped-down massed-production variant of the T-67 Mk. 2, it still retains a slight edge over base T-67 while being cheaper and easier to produce. T72B suits, incorporating an additional power pack and Tesla system, were deployed in D. C. but fell out of favour after that campaign as they were uneconomical to scale up production.
The early marks of T-72 experimented with all-ceramic construction before the Mk. 7, the current one in use, introduced duraframe-ceramic composite design. The ‘horns’ on the suit’s helmet house advanced sensor relays and radio equipment. This particular exhibit, with its black finish, gold trim, red-white-blue tricolour stripe on each pauldron, and Presidential Seal embossed on the chestplate, is a Mk. 9 command model used by President Autumn to lead US troops into battle in campaigns such as Pittsburgh and Massachusetts. It was donated by him to the museum after his retirement from politics.
T-90 ‘Hellfire’
Predominantly used by United States Marine Corps and United States Secret Service units, the T-90 represents the first powered suit to use duraframe as a component material and the most protective suit yet developed. Originally used by heavy weapons troopers in the later stages of fighting in D.C. ‘Hellfire’ suits remain relegated to use by elite units. However, it offers superior protection to any other form of power armour in service by US or rebel forces.
T-45
The First powered combat suit to see service, developed in response to the Chinese invasion of Alaska. T45 saw field deployment through most of the Third World War, though it suffered from a critical flaw - its fusion-core based power system could only handle approximately eight hours of activity before the core ran dry and it needed to be replaced. As such, the hard limit on the length a T-45 suit could be used made it less useful as an offensive weapon than its successor. After the invention of T-51, T-45 suits were distributed to National Guard units throughout America as they were replaced on the front line.
As a result, they have been used by rebel factions and raiders across United States territory. The Brotherhood of Steel in Washington D. C. used this suit en masse in their attempt to capture or destroy the Project Purity water treatment system developed by the US government working with local scientists. The severe tactical limitations this placed on them was one of the factors, most historians agree, that led to their defeat. However, T-45 derivatives have seen a long afterlife in civilian applications; such as mining, construction, riot police duties, warehouses, and extreme sports.
T-51
The T-51 was superior to the T-45 primarily due to its improved protective capabilities and its incorporation of a purpose-built microfusion reactor capable of lasting for hundreds of years without maintenance or refuelling. T-51’s main improvement was the improved tactical and operational mobility it gave power armoured units, enabling them to operate in the field for much longer periods, advancing further and faster. As such, the T-51 suit was critical to the Yangtze campaign and General Chase’s final breakthrough on the Anchorage Frontline. Very rare on the east coast due to most units being deployed to China, many however were in transit facilities and military warehouses on the West Coast and have since been stolen by various rebel organisations.
This vacuum-sealed, jetpack-equipped model saw service in orbit and on the Sea of Tranquility front during World War Three and was recovered during the evacuation of US Continuity of Government Base ELECT.
T-60
An attempt to repurpose T-45 suits by reequipping them with the microfusion reactor of the T-51, the T-60 saw testing by National Guard units in the Atlantic and New England Commonwealths before the atomic war. Not truly a mark of power armour in its own right, the T-60 program was cut short by collapse of US government control over large areas of US territory.
This exhibit is one of the few that was not scrapped for parts and melted down after its recovery by US forces.
T-67
The next generation of power armour to be developed pre-War, work on T-67 was greatly delayed by the atomic war of 2077. President Richardson was a key figure behind the resumption of development of the suit in the early 23rd century; however, no more than a few hundred were ever made due to complex production processes and shortages of raw materials. The heavy collar was a key factor in improving protection over the T-51, but proved to take up excessive amounts of materials. Most, it is presumed, were lost in the fall of Navarro or captured by rebel forces. T-67 innovated in having multiple systems intended to improve a soldier’s ability to stay in the field, and in being the first suit to incorporate a ceramic/metal composite construction. A Mark 2 was in development just before the destruction of Control Station Enclave. All known prototypes were lost, but surviving schematics allowed the US Army to develop the T-72.
T-72 ‘Black Devil’
The most common powered armour system in use today, T-72 ‘Black Devil’ suits (originating as a nickname given by the Brotherhood in D.C.) were designated X-02 in their field testing phase during the fighting to reclaim Washington D.C. Representing a stripped-down massed-production variant of the T-67 Mk. 2, it still retains a slight edge over base T-67 while being cheaper and easier to produce. T72B suits, incorporating an additional power pack and Tesla system, were deployed in D. C. but fell out of favour after that campaign as they were uneconomical to scale up production.
The early marks of T-72 experimented with all-ceramic construction before the Mk. 7, the current one in use, introduced duraframe-ceramic composite design. The ‘horns’ on the suit’s helmet house advanced sensor relays and radio equipment. This particular exhibit, with its black finish, gold trim, red-white-blue tricolour stripe on each pauldron, and Presidential Seal embossed on the chestplate, is a Mk. 9 command model used by President Autumn to lead US troops into battle in campaigns such as Pittsburgh and Massachusetts. It was donated by him to the museum after his retirement from politics.
T-90 ‘Hellfire’
Predominantly used by United States Marine Corps and United States Secret Service units, the T-90 represents the first powered suit to use duraframe as a component material and the most protective suit yet developed. Originally used by heavy weapons troopers in the later stages of fighting in D.C. ‘Hellfire’ suits remain relegated to use by elite units. However, it offers superior protection to any other form of power armour in service by US or rebel forces.
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Crow gotta eat
That peckish, patriotic, Protestant passerine.
Hmmm, just suddenly realized that the E-USA will still have to deal with the Alaskan Brotherhood and it will be interested how the E-USA strategy will deal with them while they are dealing with the NCR. Probably would also be a point the "main" Brotherhood (or rather parts of it) will retreat to that isn't NCR territory if they have any stubborn disagreement, which considering they a feudalistic society and can have their "nobles" suddenly just break off with their main forces, especially if their "homeland" is occupied and they may lose any true centralizing command to organize them possibly.Current frontline:
Might try a "let them bleed each other." Or they might realize their time has finally come and either accept the NCR or E-USA will probably conquer them in future and either side/surrender to one of them, or just stubbornly accept going down swinging in the future in whoever wins in a scenario... if the E-USA doesn't decide to go to Alaska while also fighting with the NCR at the same time first.
Well that is certainly a piece for the exhibit to have. Definitely going to get a few more visitors for that alone.
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f1onagher
Well-known member
An interesting video exploring some of the Brotherhood stuff we've been occasionally talking about. He points out that the Brotherhood was founded by a cadre of disillusioned junior officers seeking survival and purpose in the aftermath of dual tragedies (the discovery of Mariposa's true purpose and then the War). Since an organization's founding will always permanently engrave itself on said organization the Brotherhood has struggled to be more than a close nit unit. They're remarkably capable of accomplishing next-day objectives but are incapable of long-term planning or turning victory into material gains. Their entire greater scope justification of safeguarding technology was a cope to begin with and now that it has outlived its purpose it's an active albatross around the neck of an organization that needs to either evolve into a coherent nation-state or let itself devolve into a smaller NGO. Something I think few in the Brotherhood hierarchy are ready to talk about.
The Enclave is the inverse. As a cadre of incredibly high-ranking government, academic, and industrial figures they're masters of the long term with little idea of how to practically materialize their designs, hence the pre-Autumn fixation on large, one-note solutions. The Enclave can't imagine a world where their word isn't already law and thus struggle when the little people have the audacity to say no. The Autumnite Enclave has compensated for many of its predecessor's weaknesses by letting "middle manager" types like Autumn or Washington run the show for a bit, but the core weaknesses of a top heavy Superstate persist and will likely start to show cracks when more comprehensively aware minds like Autumn or Washinton die off and leave the American Deep State to run on autopilot.
The war between the Brotherhood and the Enclave is akin to two children fighting over an inheritance that burned up long ago, but at this point, the Brotherhood is still living in high school while the Enclave has moved on. California and to a lesser extent Texas are the younger siblings that never had a shot at the inheritance and so are more interested in their own aims. And as with all family squabbles, everyone would be better off if they all agreed to talk things out and let everyone mind their own houses.
Navarro
Well-known member
One of the problems the BOS has is that it was always meant to be temporary. Maxson intended it to preserve technological knowledge, hand it over to post-War survivors and then dissolve. Needless to say, this didn't happen.
Which funnily enough seems to gel with canon implying the collapse of the Midwestern Brotherhood and EBOS loss of control over its territory in the CW. The Brotherhood fundamentally can't think strategically.
In canon, on the west coast the BOS seems to have been pre-empted in forming a nation-state dooming them to Option B. And is forming a BOS nation-state even possible? The core idea of the BOS is of a tight-knit ruling technological elite, knights in power armour. That can give you a state, but I doubt that it can give you a nation (could that be why Brotherhood rule is always so fragile?).
He also talks about another problem that the Enclave has; the schizophrenic division between the military wanting to become a new ruling elite over the wasteland, and the political class being all lolgenocide, something which we see played out over and over again through FO76, FO2 (largely through hints in FNV) and FO3. That gets resolved here; the military win out over the decimated Enclave politicians and become the seeds of a new political class which isn't genocidal, greatly strengthening the Enclave. They can couple wasteland manpower to their high tech, enabling them to raise armies and expand their industry to the point they actually build (or rebuild?) a nation-state.
Most high-tech groups in Fallout are small and insular. E-US, even in AM, isn't. They could, even then, do things like deploy whole thousand-strong regiments of power-armoured soldiers to a spot hundreds of miles away. And they have a narrative that resonates with most people on the East Coast - we're Old America come again, the old glory days returned. Even to this day, nations see themselves as the heir of Rome. Pre-War America is the Rome of the Fallout universe. The idea that most wastelanders would be turned off by pre-War authoritarianism to the idea of restoring the USA doesn't make sense IMO, especially when the people claiming to be restoring those mythical good times are deliberately sweeping the worst of pre-War society under the rug. All these things couple to make them a real powerhouse, especially in the early period when they basically have a free hand to do what they want on the east coast. But they haven't built a utopia, definitely - ch. 31, which is almost completely home front stuff, will delve a bit deeper into the flaws of their society.
So by now, EATB times, they've returned essentially to what they were pre-War; the American Establishment (which I think is honestly the most sensible take as to what the "pre-War Enclave's" relationship to the US government was).
I wouldn't agree with Feral's take on Autumn though, where he seems to present a false dichotomy. He seems blind to the idea that Autumn might be ruthless and brutal because he believes in his stated goals, in his ideology of rebuilding America. You don't have to be a saint to not be nothing more than a powerhungry cynic. Personally I interpret him as similar to figures like Chiang Kai-shek, dictators who ruthlessly dealt with their (perceived) enemies but improved the countries they ruled, weren't genocidal or sadistically insane, and to an extent paved the way for democratisation.
Yeah, I wouldn't say the desire for big dramatic (and bloodthirsty) solutions has gone away completely. They'll face that temptation in future for sure.
I'd say the BOS has abandoned the inheritance. We see fleeting glimpses of references to pre-War America in say, the FO3 Brotherhood's flag, but few hints of anything substantial. When they talk about the Old World it's almost always in negative terms.
The NCR did have a shot; if the Enclave had lost ITTL, they could have waited for EBOS and MWBOS to collapse, live that nuka-western dream, Manifest Destiny in reverse. Whatever managed to coagulate on the East Coast sans Autumn's victory would have been less organised, wouldn't have had a technological edge, wouldn't have had hundreds of years in experience in statecraft and spycraft and propaganda, wouldn't have been innately hostile to the NCR. But IDK myself whether (my version of) the NCR would have made that choice. As I noted in the informational post talking about politics, the NCR's name started as a compromise - New American Republic or California Provisonal Government? They still don't know what they want to be.
And of course, the problem is that Ameriball thinks the whole neighbourhood is his (and has legal deeds to back it up, which he is so smug about), NCRball is paranoid Ameriball is going to steal his house and torture him to death and wants to take out the bastard first, Ameriball has largely calmed down from the stage where he was murderously insane but still has stress-induced moments where you see a glimpse of Enclaveball (you don't want to see Enclaveball), BOSball has signed up with NCRball to take on Ameriball together but feels the constant need to watch his back around him ... it's a screwed up neighbourhood for sure.
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SuperHeavy
Well-known member
This makes me wonder just how warped internet culture is going to be once they get around to inventing that. That and high performance computers that don't weigh a few tons and need enough power to light up an apartment complex.
DarthOne
☦️
You assume that they will. I’d argue that they wouldn’t because of how much of a security risk it would be. They do have an internet, but it seem to just be for emails. And generally seems restricted to job or work related stuff.