The issue of Agri-Worlds

[VicSage]

An Ecumenopolis would be best built on a planet towards the edges of a system then, makes sense. Why it would be established there in the first place is beyond me, but honestly they don't make much sense to me in the first place. A Forge World makes sense, an Ecumenopolis doesn't really do anything that isn't better suited by being spread out normal cities and in systems that they have the ability to feed said cities in.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Depending on how well communications work, an ecumenopolis is as nonsensical as an agri-planet, but in reverse. Agri-planets only make sense if space travel is very inexpensive. Ecumenopoli only make sense if FTL communications are trash, otherwise setting up an FTL internet with FTL!Zoom calls for politicians to communicate is more sensible and avoids the numerous physics and logistics issues the ecumenopolis runs into.

 

[bintananth]

Depending on how well communications work, an ecumenopolis is as nonsensical as an agri-planet, but in reverse. Agri-planets only make sense if space travel is very inexpensive. Ecumenopoli only make sense if FTL communications are trash, otherwise setting up an FTL internet with FTL!Zoom calls for politicians to communicate is more sensible and avoids the numerous physics and logistics issues the ecumenopolis runs into.

Even without FTL!Zoom calls an Ecumenopolis still doesn't make sense.

If you've got FTL drives but are limited to lightspeed communications talking to someone in a neighbouring star system will be done the old-fashioned way: by mail or paying them a visit in person because that's quicker.

 

[VicSage]

Of course it doesn't make sense. Only boomers use FTL!Zoom, it's all about Spacecord now.

The biggest issue with an Ecumenopolis is its military value. Namely it's nothing but a massive liability. You have to hold entire fleets and armies dedicated to that single world, because it has such a disproportionate value in terms of manpower. The enemy doesn't even need to take said world. Taking over a world like that would be worse guerrilla warfare than anything we've ever seen, there would be no end to hostiles. So why bother when you can just hit a few supply warehouses in a fly by shooting and turn thousands of miles into a food desert? Whereas normal cities on multiple worlds would be far more resilient.

 

[Typhonis]

Actually why not have the planet grow some of it's own food as part of the water and air recycling bit? Simply use strains of algae and yeast that are edible. Cull off the excess and viola. I mean they are cleaning your water and air have them pull double duty. Because if a ship is a closed ecosystem then you can easily use those same systems on a planet.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I would certainly expect to see at least some of that going on for sure. However, aquaponics generates a relatively limited assortment of foods. Unless you've got replicator-type tech to turn the algae and yeast into anything people are likely to want fruit, and meat, and bread, and a host of other things that aren't sushi rolls with no rice. The ecumenopolis in particular is likely to be pretty wealthy by nature of being a ecumenopolis, and usually the political center of the region, and hence demand luxury goods including foods both for the consumption of the wealthy and because you don't want to have a diplomatic state dinner where you serve the other heads of state dried yeast packets.

There's probably a decent range of things you can actually make from algae that I'm not aware of, but I have my doubts you're getting a rack of lamb with rice pilaf and asparagus tips out of it.

 

[VicSage]

Caves of Steel went with the "Xymoveal" option, producing masses of yeast that would be engineered to taste somewhat like certain things, and processed to be somewhat nutritious, with a little bit of wood pulp feedstock among other things. "Fresh Strawberries" in a syrup that were actually yeast may be found in the public refectory, or xymoveal chicken.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

And don't worry. Whatever it is...it'll still taste like chicken.

Real question for the ecumenopolis...how will salt get made? Is that even a real issue? I knownwe need some level of salt intake..or at least a certain amount of minerals.

 

[bintananth]

Real question for the ecumenopolis...how will salt get made?

Mr. Na and Ms. Cl went on a date. There were fireworks and the two got married before the date ended. They're now known as the NaCl's.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Mr. Na and Ms. Cl went on a date. There were fireworks and the two got married before the date ended. They're now known as the NaCl's.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

I guess my concern is that on a city planet the oceans and rainfall are heavily controlled/collected. Since the world's salt flats are pretty much already used or built over, how is the planet getting enough mineral content? Mystery reclamation from the waste? It's an honest question to see if the Ecumenopolis will run into nutrient shortage just aside from the basics.

PS. Not really sure it's even worth wondering about, but it's where my brain has gone.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I guess my concern is that on a city planet the oceans and rainfall are heavily controlled/collected. Since the world's salt flats are pretty much already used or built over, how is the planet getting enough mineral content? Mystery reclamation from the waste? It's an honest question to see if the Ecumenopolis will run into nutrient shortage just aside from the basics.

PS. Not really sure it's even worth wondering about, but it's where my brain has gone.

Probably a mix of reclamation and importing from mineral planets. If we tried to make Earth an ecumenopolis, f'rex, we'd likely run out of key macronutrients like phosphorus before we had enough people to citify the entire planet. I recall reading an Isaac Asimov essay where he analyzed how large the population could get before running out of phosphorus (a point where every bit of phosphorus would be either part of a human or in the process of being reclaimed from one to recycle into food) but it was ages ago and I can't recall the title.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I guess my concern is that on a city planet the oceans and rainfall are heavily controlled/collected. Since the world's salt flats are pretty much already used or built over, how is the planet getting enough mineral content? Mystery reclamation from the waste? It's an honest question to see if the Ecumenopolis will run into nutrient shortage just aside from the basics.

PS. Not really sure it's even worth wondering about, but it's where my brain has gone.

Speaking of rainfall, what about the possibility of rainfall being generated in sufficiently large buildings like the senate building?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Speaking of rainfall, what about the possibility of rainfall being generated in sufficiently large buildings like the senate building?

It just takes a Drill Sergeant and enough Privates being smoked. It'll rain! 😜

 

[VicSage]

Speaking of rainfall, what about the possibility of rainfall being generated in sufficiently large buildings like the senate building?

Put a small hole in the top of the rotunda and the hot air will pull the moisture out with it. It was a fairly common technique in certain Roman temples to keep them cool and dry.

 

[Captain X]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that human "manure" wouldn't actually make very good fertilizer and might actually make the soil worse.

 

[VicSage]

Both yes and no. It's high in certain substances that need a substantial time to break down and rot properly before they become decent fertilizer, and it could lead to certain diseases like Cholera if in water supplies or on harvested food. Here's a couple of articles on both night soil, and on pre-sewage treatment life.

A History of Human Waste as Fertilizer | JSTOR Daily
The Stink About Human Poop As Fertilizer | Modern Farmer
The 19th-Century Night Soil Men Who Carted Away America’s Waste - Atlas Obscura

History Daily

historydaily.org

Farming Know-How: The Science Of Manure Management | Survivopedia
How To Build An Outhouse | Survivopedia

 

[PsihoKekec]

Human manure needs to be composted for at least a year, to kill off the harmful bacteria inside, same for manure of other omnivores like pigs and chicken.

 

[bintananth]

Human manure needs to be composted for at least a year, to kill off the harmful bacteria inside, same for manure of other omnivores like pigs and chicken.

Which works out to nearly a literal ton of shit per adult in the compost pile at all times.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Of course the time can be expedited if you do it in an enclosed system, add some bacteria and ramp up the heat a bit.

 

[McAlistair]

I think Agri-Worlds make the most Sense if we divorce Food from the stuff we eat. If an Agriworld only exports concentratet Vitamins and Amino-Acids and Composts the Rest the Drain is easily compensated for by washing crushed rocks with irrigation-water. These concentrates would then be mixed with sugar from local bacteria/algea Vats and some filler that is constantly recycled from the excrement. This system might be more economic, than lugging huge volumes of aero/hydroponics and/or aquaculture around.