Humanity managed to actually Star Trek it, before everything went to shit.
To Hell With Space Elves: Misanthropy in Science Fiction
- Thread starter Laskar
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Humanity managed to actually Star Trek it, before everything went to shit.
Cyan Saiyajin
Well-known member
To be honest I see "humanity deserves extinction" scifi is as much a mass produced cliche as anything else, sure some maybe even most of it may be produced with intent. But I hate to see intent just assumed, honestly its a solid idea as far as some people will like it. I mean James Cameron may of meant it in the Avatar films, but at the same time it seems like a good way to make a buck.
having said that I certainly don't like it usually. It does come off as misanthropy.
having said that I certainly don't like it usually. It does come off as misanthropy.
Navarro
Well-known member
They could have even bounced back from the machine revolt had the Eldar not fucked up Warp travel for everyone and destroyed galactic civilisation.
EDIT: And you know what? By creating Slaanesh, the Eldar supercharged Chaos.
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I actually really agree with the OP, and the fun part is that I'm actually a registered member of a tribe, yet I still see the revenge porn for what it is. The funny thing is, while so many people apparently liked Avatar, I was pretty upset by it and its hippy-derived view of Natives, and frankly just how cheap and one-dimensional the writing was. I also found it pretty hilarious that while that movie is lauded as some kind of "woke" take on the way Natives were exploited by white people, that it was still at its core a white savior movie, where the white guy is better at being Native than the Natives. Oh, and did you notice that none of the humans in the movie were Native? I did. Of course, I'm probably somewhat unique in my views, as both my mother and my sister liked that movie. Honestly my take on it and "wokeness" in general is that people seem to want to continue to live in the past, and even pretend like things are still the same as the past. The closest this comes to any kind of a parallel is that there are still problems with mineral rights, and things like that pipeline they insisted on routing through sacred ground, and which put our tribe (and really everyone downstream from the pipeline) at risk from contamination for any leaks that might develop. Really, though, I think the biggest problems facing modern day Natives is that there's very little opportunity for those living on reservations, which in turn makes them very dependent on the government. Many are concerned with tribal sovereignty, but it becomes something of a moot point when everyone is in poverty because there's no way to fill the tribe's coffers or our own pockets. It's hard to be fiercely independent while also being dependent on the government so you can keep paying the bills so you can even have a home.
I also don't much care for the whole noble savage trope, either. I have a certain respect for the fierceness and fighting prowess of my ancestors and how they lived, but that doesn't mean I fantasize about living like that myself. I'm sure my ancestors on both sides of my family would find me pretty soft, but I'm rather fond of the luxuries of modern technology, and not having to deal with that whole feast or famine thing that comes with living as a nomadic hunter/gatherer, or constantly having to fight off enemies who would kill me for what I have or try to take me as a slave. Natives were also not always the nicest people either, and I find the depiction of them always being justified in their actions to ring rather false as well. I mean, strictly speaking, if I go far enough back in my ancestry, there were probably Vikings there on the other side of the family, and they weren't exactly the nicest people either.
I also don't much care for the whole noble savage trope, either. I have a certain respect for the fierceness and fighting prowess of my ancestors and how they lived, but that doesn't mean I fantasize about living like that myself. I'm sure my ancestors on both sides of my family would find me pretty soft, but I'm rather fond of the luxuries of modern technology, and not having to deal with that whole feast or famine thing that comes with living as a nomadic hunter/gatherer, or constantly having to fight off enemies who would kill me for what I have or try to take me as a slave. Natives were also not always the nicest people either, and I find the depiction of them always being justified in their actions to ring rather false as well. I mean, strictly speaking, if I go far enough back in my ancestry, there were probably Vikings there on the other side of the family, and they weren't exactly the nicest people either.
Hey, thanks for reminding me that this thread exists!
Avatar was the culmination of what I call Hollywood Eco-Misanthropy. Throughout the nineties (Probably earlier, but that's when it become obvious enough for me to notice it) the morality espoused by Hollywood was sort of a utilitarian humanism with a strong affinity for green causes. Movies told us to be good people and do the right thing and take care of the environment. This is why Jeff Goldblum spouted off pseudoscientific bullshit about how "Life finds a way" in Jurassic Park, and ranted about the hole in the ozone in Independence Day.
The flip side of humanism seems to be misanthropy, a disdain for humanity that often slides into anti-natalism. I think the reason for that is that while humanists value humanity, they're often disappointed that humanity doesn't live up to their expectations. This leaves them hating humanity, or at least wistful for projects that will either improve human nature or make sure that there's not that many humans around to wreck stuff.
So, Avatar. In Avatar, the eco-message got wrapped up in an anti-colonialism message, but morality was entirely determined by how people lived with nature. The natives weren't good because they were natives, but because they were co-existing with nature on Pandora. Humans were evil because they strip-mined and overindustrialized their planet and were coming to strip-mine Pandora. The scientists were good because they used their science to communicate with Pandora's nature, and they used their technology to integrate with that ecosystem.
One of the more ridiculous parts of that movie is the scene where the Na'vi were all sitting cross-legged around a tree, literally connected to the planet through their pony-tail USB ports. I think I'm the only one that was laughing during that shot in the theater, though.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Personally, if I had to point to a Hollywood film that pushes an ecological message right, there's Star Trek IV: The Journey Home. Humanity wiped out the whales, and now it's biting them in the ass, but Humanity also has a chance to set things right, not just for the whales, but also themselves and countless other species in the Federation that got dragged into the mess with Humanity. And it does all that with a perfect blend of drama and comedy that makes for a fun evening in front of the TV.
Hell, it even somehow managed to simplify the philosophical details of environmentalism while driving it home without having to hammer it down people's throats. In fact, it fits with both the themes of the film and the character/s speaking it.
Spock: To hunt a species to extinction is not logical.
Gillian: Whoever said the Human species was logical?
Even Spock's nonverbal language shows he admits it answers his question very well (and something he has noted plenty of times himself).
Best of Fantastic Part Two
So, I did finish the book. To my great surprise, I somehow left the best stories for last.
Paingod, by Harlan Ellison, was a little difficult to get into, at first. It is the story of a god of pain, a transcendent being whose job is to inflict pain on all creatures in the universe, from tiny swamp flies to great leaders of interstellar empires. The Paingod does as he does because it is his job, and it is his job because other transcendent beings created him to do so.
But doubt is starting to creep in. Why pain? Why anything? Why cause harm, and is harm evil?
These doubts grow over the eons, until the Paingod sets forth to find answers. He knows that other paingods have done so, and chose to never come back to their station. He takes the body of a dead wino, a drifter who knew nothing but failure before he expired, and he strikes up a conversation with a failed artist named Colin. A statue-maker who is no good at what he does, who watched a promising career stutter out because he couldn't sand, he couldn't chip, and he couldn't make the chisel do what he wants it to do.
The Paingod does the cruelest thing he can do. He takes Colin's soul by the hand and shows him the wonders of the universe, the lights of other galaxies and the little whirly-winged insects and the great man-machines that rule two sectors of the universe. In doing so, the Paingod finally understands the pain he has inflicted upon countless trillions, and what its purpose is.
Colin wakes up back at his studio, at the foot of the most beautiful statue he has ever seen. And he carved it. Somehow he carved it, and yet he knows that his hands will never carve another statue to match that beauty.
The Paingod goes before its creators, and tells them what he has learned.
The Paingod knows what has become of the other paingods. They reached this realization, and they could not take the next step. But he understands. He returns to his post, and he will send more pain than ever before. More and greater.
And in knowing his purpose, he has found happiness.
There's some other stories in there, but they'll have to wait for another day, perhaps tomorrow. I'm thinking of turning this thread into a general review of some old, obscure science fiction.
Paingod, by Harlan Ellison, was a little difficult to get into, at first. It is the story of a god of pain, a transcendent being whose job is to inflict pain on all creatures in the universe, from tiny swamp flies to great leaders of interstellar empires. The Paingod does as he does because it is his job, and it is his job because other transcendent beings created him to do so.
But doubt is starting to creep in. Why pain? Why anything? Why cause harm, and is harm evil?
These doubts grow over the eons, until the Paingod sets forth to find answers. He knows that other paingods have done so, and chose to never come back to their station. He takes the body of a dead wino, a drifter who knew nothing but failure before he expired, and he strikes up a conversation with a failed artist named Colin. A statue-maker who is no good at what he does, who watched a promising career stutter out because he couldn't sand, he couldn't chip, and he couldn't make the chisel do what he wants it to do.
The Paingod does the cruelest thing he can do. He takes Colin's soul by the hand and shows him the wonders of the universe, the lights of other galaxies and the little whirly-winged insects and the great man-machines that rule two sectors of the universe. In doing so, the Paingod finally understands the pain he has inflicted upon countless trillions, and what its purpose is.
Colin wakes up back at his studio, at the foot of the most beautiful statue he has ever seen. And he carved it. Somehow he carved it, and yet he knows that his hands will never carve another statue to match that beauty.
The Paingod goes before its creators, and tells them what he has learned.
The Paingod knows what has become of the other paingods. They reached this realization, and they could not take the next step. But he understands. He returns to his post, and he will send more pain than ever before. More and greater.
And in knowing his purpose, he has found happiness.
There's some other stories in there, but they'll have to wait for another day, perhaps tomorrow. I'm thinking of turning this thread into a general review of some old, obscure science fiction.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Do the Cthulhu Mythos count as science fiction?
I can't take that school seriously anyway. You know why? Because all these rich scumbags are preaching to the unwashed masses to stay poor and starving while the rich and beautiful get to enjoy the benefits of modern civilization. They might claim it's for the betterment of the world, some might even believe it, but at its very nature it's about pulling up the ladder with which they rose to top percenter and smashing it so they don't have to share anyone with anyone.
EDIT: It's like Solarpunk for that matter.
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What's the sitch?
Well-known member
There is the day the earth stood still original vs the remake with keanu reeves
Original was about being warned and needing to set aside our warlike ways before we enter the galactic neighbor hood.
In the remake we are under actual threat of alien extinction(not just given a warning/threat) because they are eco terrorists for justice and have determined that we don't deserve our planet and are going to cleanse the filthy humans. Also they strawman the behavior of multiple people to be exceptionally stubborn and unwilling to see any sort of reason and just be crazy in general.
Original was about being warned and needing to set aside our warlike ways before we enter the galactic neighbor hood.
In the remake we are under actual threat of alien extinction(not just given a warning/threat) because they are eco terrorists for justice and have determined that we don't deserve our planet and are going to cleanse the filthy humans. Also they strawman the behavior of multiple people to be exceptionally stubborn and unwilling to see any sort of reason and just be crazy in general.
ShadowLord
Well-known member
What is bad about solarpunk?
Yeah, but I'm not going to talk about those books. Too well known, and everything that can be said about them has been said about them.
Syzygy
Well-known member
Hey, if you like obscure science fiction, but don't have the time to read, there is an excellent archive of old works adapted for radio.
X Minus One
Highlights include "Mars is Heaven" with a simple twist delivered exquisitely well and "A Thousand Dollars a Plate" which is surprisingly optimistic and quite domestic in scope, a humorous tale of one-upmanship that leads to unlikely friendship. "Lulungomeena" is also a gem. Really, all of them are decent stories expertly told. It's so strange seeing the wild possibilities that sprang from the minds of authors who freely speculated on the future and the universe without fear of inaccuracy or plausibility.
Fair warning: sometimes the interface doesn't function so the only way to listen is by downloading the archive.
X Minus One
Highlights include "Mars is Heaven" with a simple twist delivered exquisitely well and "A Thousand Dollars a Plate" which is surprisingly optimistic and quite domestic in scope, a humorous tale of one-upmanship that leads to unlikely friendship. "Lulungomeena" is also a gem. Really, all of them are decent stories expertly told. It's so strange seeing the wild possibilities that sprang from the minds of authors who freely speculated on the future and the universe without fear of inaccuracy or plausibility.
Fair warning: sometimes the interface doesn't function so the only way to listen is by downloading the archive.
In its essence, it is saying "Forget about your children having a better life than you! The community is more important than any individual! Hand over all technological and medical advances to big brother, and accept your lot as a second world citizen!"
To quote Bassoe on spacebattles:
Simon Roy's comic "Protector" had the perfect example in why Solarpunk is suspect:
ShadowLord
Well-known member
...you're going to have to walk me though how one gets that out of this:
Solar Punk - TV Tropes
Solarpunk is a genre of Speculative Fiction that focuses on craftsmanship, community, and technology powered by renewable energy, wrapped up in a coating of Art Nouveau blended with African and Asian aesthetics. It envisions a free and …
tvtropes.org
It's in the implications rather than openly stated.
f1onagher
Well-known member
The noble savage trope infantalizes what were perfectly functional civilizations with their own cultures, economies, and foreign relations. Lazy US history skips over the centuries of back and forth warfare and complicated politics that went on between Indians and the US. And that doesn't even touch on everywhere else. Remember, the tribes of the American southwest drove the Spanish empire from their territory repeatedly and the British limited American westward settlement not out of some higher minded sense of honesty, but because it was too expensive to fight the entrenched and paranoid tribes on the other side of the Appalachians. Its infuriating to me since it simultaneously disrespects Indians as helpless babes and demonizes American pioneers as the equivalent of baby killers.
Aesthetically, nothing. Its just a more Green looking future. Once you get into the implications of the punk genre though it turns into a reductive, communistic, neoprimitive hellhole. The stuff you're reading on TV Tropes is the business pitch for it, or more cynically a propaganda cover. Even at its most generous its a Utopian setting in much the same way Dinotopia is. Its clearly artificial and is not made to compete with actual hardship.
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
Cyberpunk is both more realistic and more desirable than solarpunk, IMO.