Transgender Rights

[Grimalkin]

That's a dangerous precedent. "Don't tolerate this shit."

Who decides what this shit is we do or do not tolerate? Where do we draw the line?

Trans people can't be tolerated? What about gay people? Or, like, I don't know, the Jews.

"Look what happened after we freed the blacks from slavery. Give them inch, they try to take a mile."

Where's the acceptable line?

One of the lines is people trying to dissolve fundamental categories like gender or forcibly change the language. As for gay people, as long as they don't insinuate themselves into the raising and teaching of children let them do what they want for the most part.

Another one of the lines is eugenics and racialist rhetoric, people spouting that shit or trying to otherwise implement it need to be shut down. One ethnic or religious group trying to gain supremacy over another is not something that should be tolerated.

As far as trans people, they should be treated the same way as anorexics with lots and lots of therapy. And you keep looking for better alternatives, conduct clinical trials, and try to fix the problem instead of just giving up on them.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

@evilchumlee @Grimalkin I feel like a fence sitter here because I agree with you both on various points it's just a matter of how far you take things. @evilchumlee is right that everything is live and let live. The problem is I've yet to see that from the trans community, Even people I thought were chill and (relatively normal were not) this whole invasion of women's sports was sort of a wake up call on that front. Saying "X group cannot be tolerated" CAN EASILY be a precedent, but what happens when tolerance so far it goes into the other way?

How do we treat it? I don't know, neither political party takes mental health seriously and have different ways of saying "Just shut your eyes and it'll go away" I don't want to see people locked and ignored by the rest of society as IMO that's just murdering them slowly. But clearly the current way of doing things aren't working as we have more and more post-transition horror stories coming out daily.

 

[Ixian]

I wouldn't agree with that at all, but I would agree that transgenderism is a mental illness... I don't know why we need to deny that, but also it seems like the treatment for it is to just... let people dress/act how they want.

What it shouldn't do is give anyone special privilege's.

If you were born a man and feel like you need to live as a woman? Who are any of us to stop you? Live your life.

You just... also can't expect other people to pander to you, agree with you, or take part in it with you.

For example, i'll use whatever pronouns you want if you ask me, because i'm not an asshole. Whatever, that's what you want to be called, that's fine. I also might slip occasionally because i've been on this planet for 38 years and this pronoun thing has been like, two years and I don't even know anyone in the real world who does pronoun stuff. But... whatever. That's fine, I will. It's *ALSO* ok if people don't.

The world would be a better place if everyone could just not be an asshole, like all around. Let people do what they do and don't force other people to do what you want. That's all. It should be so simple.

It's an ineffective treatment, the communities suicide rate is still alarming high, even after the individuals transition and are "affirmed" in their self choosen lifestyle.

It also exacerbates the real problem, the individuals delusions that they were born in the wrong body. They weren't, they were born as whatever sex they were born as and that's it, confirming a Trans individuals delusions is probably about as helpful as confirming a Apotemnophile's delusions.

 

[Ixian]

Those two things are not the same. That's quite the false equivalency.

Why should we give people surgery to "change their sex"? Because they want to? And we can?

I do agree that it shouldn't be something to be done lightly and we need to get over this weird society thing of trying to push it on people, absolutely. But if somebody wants it done? Doesn't hurt anyone else, none of my business to tell them no.

Sure, let then mutilate themselves if they wish. I mean it's a free country.

Now explain exactly why we shouldn't let someone with anorexia mutilate themselves?

Why shouldn't we let someone with Apotemnophilia cut off their left arm? Heck, why shouldn't we affirm the beliefs of a schizophrenic?

Seriously, I constantly hear how "it's different" when this question is asked, but thats based on the presumption that body dysmorphia isn't a mental illness (iT iSn'T In tHe DsM).

 

[mrttao]

It's an ineffective treatment, the communities suicide rate is still alarming high, even after the individuals transition and are "affirmed" in their self choosen lifestyle.

The "treatment" is by and large the cause of the suicide.
A lot of suiciding trans explicitly noted how awful things were after they got "affirming care".
Constant pain, constant bleeding, dilating, infections...
having a bleeding wound and calling it a vagina is very very far from healthy.

they have started picking up on it themselves which is why the new craze is men who "identify" as women without castrating themselves.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Why shouldn't we let someone with Apotemnophilia cut off their left arm? Heck, why shouldn't we affirm the beliefs of a schizophrenic?

problem is Slippery slope

the justification for the above ends up being the same for:

"Why Shouldin't we let these people of different races marry?"

"Why shouldin't we let people choose how to live thier lives?"

"Why shouldin't we let people question the state?"

It ends up becoming one of two justifications. "Keep the land pure." or "it's for their own good.

 

[Ixian]

problem is Slippery slope

the justification for the above ends up being the same for:

"Why Shouldin't we let these people of different races marry?"

"Why shouldin't we let people choose how to live thier lives?"

"Why shouldin't we let people question the state?"

It ends up becoming one of two justifications. "Keep the land pure." or "it's for their own good.

Not a clue what you are trying to say here.

Are you saying that the answer for all of the above questions, yours and mine, are "Its for their own good" or "To keep the land pure"?

 

[mrttao]

Sure, let then mutilate themselves if they wish. I mean it's a free country.

Now explain exactly why we shouldn't let someone with anorexia mutilate themselves?

Why shouldn't we let someone with Apotemnophilia cut off their left arm? Heck, why shouldn't we affirm the beliefs of a schizophrenic?

Seriously, I constantly hear how "it's different" when this question is asked, but thats based on the presumption that body dysmorphia isn't a mental illness (iT iSn'T In tHe DsM).

 

[mrttao]

Not a clue what you are trying to say here.

Are you saying that the answer for all of the above questions, yours and mine, are "Its for their own good" or "To keep the land pure"?

He is making a slippery slope argument

> if you refuse to affirm the mentally ill and forbid doctors from amputating healthy body parts due to mental illnesses then your logic for doing so will get taken to the logical conclusion and you will end up with a big brother totalitarian govt where people are forbidden to question the govt.
> And also you will become white supremacists' racis' who will ban interracial marriage to keep the race pure.
> if you don't want to be this kind of evil totalitarian racist bigot, then you have to affirm mental illnesses and let people self mutilate.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Not a clue what you are trying to say here.

Are you saying that the answer for all of the above questions, yours and mine, are "Its for their own good" or "To keep the land pure"?

That ends up becoming the reasoning 9/10 even when the intentions are legit good. which is why I firmy believe Reagan's wise words of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

 

[Ixian]

A meme is a meme, but if we are willing to acknowledge that body dysmorphia is a mental illness, and we can agree that we don't care if the mentally ill who have body dysmorphia mutilate themselves in an attempt to sooth the mental anguish caused by their mental illness, why not allow those who suffer from several other types of mental illness, some of which are very similar to body dysmorphia, to mutilate themselves as well?

This is a question that leftist and trans ideologists constantly sidestep.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

He is making a slippery slope argument

> if you refuse to affirm the mentally ill and forbid doctors from amputating healthy body parts due to mental illnesses then your logic for doing so will get taken to the logical conclusion and you will end up with a big brother totalitarian govt where people are forbidden to question the govt.
> And also you will become white supremacists' racis' who will ban interracial marriage to keep the race pure.
> if you don't want to be this kind of evil totalitarian racist bigot, then you have to affirm mental illnesses and let people self mutilate.

No Toa I'm saying that there is a slippery slope so you have to be careful with your reasoning. it also can work in reverse as well. As we've seen with the LGBTQ. "If we let the state affirm gay marriage they'll soon go after your kids."

it's darned if you do darned if you don't.

 

[Ixian]

He is making a slippery slope argument

> if you refuse to affirm the mentally ill and forbid doctors from amputating healthy body parts due to mental illnesses then your logic for doing so will get taken to the logical conclusion and you will end up with a big brother totalitarian govt where people are forbidden to question the govt.
> And also you will become white supremacists' racis' who will ban interracial marriage to keep the race pure.
> if you don't want to be this kind of evil totalitarian racist bigot, then you have to affirm mental illnesses and let people self mutilate.

Well thats some full blown libertarianism, big government is certainly bad, but some government is ultimately necessary. I have no interest in living in a Somali situation.

I'm also not sure it really addressed my point. The government is currently allowing one group of mentally ill people to mutilate themselves, and allowing the ideological supporters to mutilate children.

Why not allow other groups of the mentally ill to do the same? Thats my question.

That ends up becoming the reasoning 9/10 even when the intentions are legit good. which is why I firmy believe Reagan's wise words of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

So you would agree that it's okay to allow the mentally ill to harm themselves in a permanent physical and psychological manner?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

So you would agree that it's okay to allow the mentally ill to harm themselves in a permanent physical and psychological manner?

Personally, if it were one of mine I'd do everything I could to try to help them, talk with them get them through things, but right now I don't trust the state like at all. After everything with Covid and some of the stuff going on with my mom, I'm having a hard time trusting doctors right now as everything seems to come down to politics or money when you fear your own home ruining your life more than you fear a foreign invasion it means things truly have gone to heck and I am well at that point. Look at Canada thier answer to treating my disability and my depression is to kill me. (Seriously look up M.A,I.D)

 

[Grimalkin]

How do we treat it? I don't know, neither political party takes mental health seriously and have different ways of saying "Just shut your eyes and it'll go away" I don't want to see people locked and ignored by the rest of society as IMO that's just murdering them slowly. But clearly the current way of doing things aren't working as we have more and more post-transition horror stories coming out daily.

It's not very treatable as it is, but I if I had my way I'd start by putting them through psychedelic clinical trials to see if that has an impact. Children grow out of gender dysphoria most of the time provided people don't reinforce it, so promoting neuroplasticity in adults through psychedelic treatment and then following up on that with therapy after each dose might work or at least help.

More specifically I'd like to see a clinical trial exploring the efficaciousness of 6-MeO-DMT and 6-MeO-isoDMT, which are DMT derivatives that are thought to have reduced or completely absent hallucinogenic effects but still seem to promote neuroplasticity.

But then there's the issue of the trans-activists who'll probably scream and compare this to conversion therapy.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Well thats some full blown libertarianism, big government is certainly bad, but some government is ultimately necessary. I have no interest in living in a Somali situation.

and I'd rather live in Somalia than China or the Middle East which seems like the West is heading towards. So, we might at an impasse there.

Why not allow other groups of the mentally ill to do the same? Thats my question.

Probably because you can't milk "Treatments" out of these demographics. And I think I'm not explaining myself. I'm not saying that the mentally ill should never be treated. I'm saying I don't trust the state to do it as they have proven to be my enemy more than they have my advocate. I don't trust them.

 

[mrttao]

A meme is a meme, but if we are willing to acknowledge that body dysmorphia is a mental illness, and we can agree that we don't care if the mentally ill who have body dysmorphia mutilate themselves in an attempt to sooth the mental anguish caused by their mental illness, why not allow those who suffer from several other types of mental illness, some of which are very similar to body dysmorphia, to mutilate themselves as well?

This is a question that leftist and trans ideologists constantly sidestep.

I think you mean to say gender dysphoria.

Body Dysphoria is any dissatisfaction with your body.
That includes gender, but also bulemia, annorexia, furries who get surgery to look more animal like, those women who get surgery to remove their lower ribs, footbinding, and more...

Heck, some is even healthy. "I am fat, I need to diet and exercise" is healthy body dysphoria so long as you are actually really fat and your aim is healthy weight instead of anorexic skeleton.
Or "sigh, being old sucks. I wish I didn't have arthritis" is... well, neither healthy nor unhealthy. just normal body dysphoria.

Having body dysphoria is utterly normal for all humans over age 30 and 99.999% of humans under the age of 30.

The mental illness part is when your response to body dysphoria is an unhealthy manner (chop parts off / bulemia) instead of healthy manner (get healthy amount of exercise. stop eating junk food).

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I think you mean to say gender dysphoria.

Body Dysphoria is any dissatisfaction with your body.
That includes gender, but also bulemia, annorexia, furries who get surgery to look more animal like, those women who get surgery to remove their lower ribs, footbinding, and more...

Heck, some is even healthy. "I am fat, I need to diet and exercise" is healthy body dysphoria so long as you are actually really fat and your aim is healthy weight instead of anorexic skeleton.
Or "sigh, being old sucks. I wish I didn't have arthritis" is... well, neither healthy nor unhealthy. just normal body dysphoria.

Having body dysphoria is utterly normal for all humans over age 30 and 99.999% of humans under the age of 30.

The mental illness part is when your response to body dysphoria is an unhealthy manner (chop parts off / bulemia) instead of healthy manner (get healthy amount of exercise. stop eating junk food).

Ah but see that's the thing. you discerned and made 3 very clear distinctions with three very prominent lines. the state as of right now does not do that. It treats it all as the same darn context. It treats it all as the same which is why I argued slippery slope earlier.

 

[Ixian]

I think you mean to say gender dysphoria.

Body Dysphoria is any dissatisfaction with your body.
That includes gender, but also bulemia, annorexia, furries who get surgery to look more animal like, those women who get surgery to remove their lower ribs, footbinding, and more...

Heck, some is even healthy. "I am fat, I need to diet and exercise" is healthy body dysphoria so long as you are actually really fat and your aim is healthy weight instead of anorexic skeleton.
Or "sigh, being old sucks. I wish I didn't have arthritis" is... well, neither healthy nor unhealthy. just normal body dysphoria.

Having body dysphoria is utterly normal for all humans over age 30 and 99.999% of humans under the age of 30.

The mental illness part is when your response to body dysphoria is an unhealthy manner (chop parts off / bulemia) instead of healthy manner (get healthy amount of exercise. stop eating junk food).

Yes, Gender Dysphoria is what I meant.

 

[Wilykit]

Since when did the internet of the '90s and early 2000s not have open and obvious porn everywhere? One of the reasons Google got so big was because their search engine looked at the actual content of pages instead of looking at the meta tags put in the header by the person who made the web pages (because there was a certain amount of trust there in the beginning) and the porn peddlers would just fill up their meta tags with all kinds of random shit just to appear in more search results. The fact search engines stopped doing that is one of the few improvements the nu-internet has. I mean, I have nostalgia for the old internet, too, but that's mainly over the lack of censorship and how easy it was to make your own website if you learned even basic HTML.

Anyway, getting off topic I suppose...

All these years... decades! I thought I was just bad at the whole Internet thing. It was them messing with me. I actually feel a little better about myself.... thanks!