Military US Military Is Scared Americans Won't Fight For Globalism
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King Arts
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Under normal circumstances yes. But men and women are different. The Ancients Spartans honored women who died in childbirth the same as dead soldiers. I’m a bit leery at policies that punish reproduction.
Agent23
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Yeah, they knew that numerical inferiority would be the death of them, and it was.
Shipmaster Sane
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Women do not have a place in the military. Arm them fine. Show them how to shoot and hike and survive, teach them whatever skills you want so that they might preserve their life and their home in a time of extreme need, but do not send them to war.
Women and men are not equivalent, not even at the same mass. Women suffer exponentially more non combat injuries in the military. Their joints take more damage, leading to exponentially higher rates of life long debilitating injuries. Their reflexes are slower, their hips in particular are less suited to infantry activities, their metabolisms are not adapted to these stresses. They have exponentially higher rates of psychological difficulties. Double digit percentages of female personnel intentionally become pregnant during their service. It all contributes to soldiers who fight poorer, march slower, march for less time, get sick more, get injured more, get crippled more, and quit more. Best case scenario you are throwing the fittest, bravest, most civic minded women of your generation into a situation that minimizes their contribution to society and maximizes their likelihood for permanent injury. You cannot expect women to be soldiers, nor should you encourage, or even allow it.
But I agree!
The right to vote and the responsibility to serve should be one in the same. Having people vote on matters of war with out having any skin in the game leads to bad things. You don't have to serve in the front lines, you can do medical work, you can do clerical work you can do support positions.
But the deal is when shit hits the fan and your called you show up, if your not willing to even try then you shouldn't be allowed to vote or hold office.
Shipmaster Sane
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I said I agree!
Shipmaster Sane
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Absolutely not.
The only systems that work are Starship Troopers "Service guarantees citizenship" voting only by veterans, or simple one house one vote limited franchise to land owning men.
The problem is that in that system most people would not be called up ever simple because... in most cases the military and supporting institutions would rarely need more than 1-4% of the population, unless the country turns out to be in a world war equivalent or total war otherwise, in which case people's decisions will be dictated more by other factors (like chances of winning, chances of system surviving, expected casualty levels, patriotism/nationalism, likely style of occupation) than the future of their vote and legality of draft dodging.
Shipmaster Sane
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In the "service guarantees citizenship" system presumably you would cycle people faster in peacetime, have those applying for citizenship through service serve shorter terms before becoming "veterans" and be kicked back into the public sector, retaining their vote.
In such a heinleinian system you would presumably also class other kinds of dangerous labor as granting citizenship.
That all said, most people don't vote. Most people don't want to vote. Most people, in fact, dont even really care to have a say in their governance as long as their lord's hand is not too hard across their back. In a Starship troopers system I bet you dollars to donuts people desperate to earn their franchise at all costs would not be as big a problem as you might think.
So, the irony here would be that the "heineleinian system" would get you a crappy military with lots of poorly trained manpower with high incentives for corruption in form of Russia style "monetization" of the free labor superfluous conscripts can be.
Also in developed countries there wouldn't be all that much other dangerous labor, unless artificially made dangerous, or we go to purely commercial ventures like crab fishing, which would be ridiculous.
Umm, i think we have a lot of data for that specific question and you are straight out wrong. A slight majority of people votes. US election turnout usually is around 55-65%, and many other democracies are within +/-5% of that.
If China was still China,not commie hellhole,i would consider it.Okay well what if they had a different kind of government?
But the thing is there's a billion people there see if you look over south of them, you know why India is so chaotic.
A billion people is kind of hard to govern with a democracy.
It doesn't mean that India won't eventually find its way it's just that.
Consider a company wants to build a new port facility, but there's houses in the way.
Well an authoritarian state just declares imminent domain, and moves the people then they build the port.
Ironically in our world, the state that does that is the United States.
China has a problem with 'nail houses' you really think it would be the other way around but no, China apparently has better private property laws.
It's kinda both, mix freedom and authoritarianism you get a large country that functions well.
You don't really think that you're actually voting when you vote on those electronic voting machines now do you.
Of course it counts
And,in Poland i just voted without using machines.
King Arts
Well-known member
Heck no. Service guarantees citizenship is fine. But landholders requirements are bullshit unless you think Bill Gates is a great idea for a voter. Look at history and you will see many incompetent heirs, being born rich enough to own land is no guarantee of virtue.
Agent23
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Service does not mean military service, the whole idea of the book was to have a voting base that suffers for its rights and has skin in the game.
And it did not envision some type of permanent military and MIC, where the career military would perpetually vote for bigger budgets and more expansion.
So, while I agree with most of Heinlein's ideas I think there are problems with applicability if you do not put in the entire system from the book, and the collapse that brought it upon.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
The reasoning is that owning some land entails a certain bare minimum of competence that is not assured of impoverished tenants. Additionally, due to the frontier lifestyle still being common, the vast majority of landowning households were small farms, meaning that voting power rested primarily in "the middle class" as it was at the time.
Now, look at where the Democrats are getting their votes. Then tell me that removing this qualification has nothing to do with the intensity of problems.
Agent23
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Read the book, several times if you do not get it the first time.
And frankly, a system of democracy where only the male warriors voted was basically the norm with many tribes and civilizations before the middle ages.
The Slavs for example were known to have "decided everything in democracy" and that all warriors got the vote.
Of course, specialization and lack of manpower, and the loss of civic virtue leads to us getting a more specialized caste of military leaders, e.g. the various knights and other inbred hereditary buffoons that ran shit after the fall of Rome and prior to the American and French Revolutions.
This type of oligarchy and special bureaucratic class formation is nothing new, but it is not a good thing, either.
As to graft, corruption and incompetence, well the US MIC is massively overpriced and leeches money from the citizenry, and has a revolving door between itself and the professional military.
How many generals end up on the payrolls of Lockheed and Raytheon, again?
And then end back in governmnet, like as we like to call him here, "Lord" Austin of Raytheon.
Interestingly enough, Singapore actually has a system where their police, emergency and military services are made up of draftees.
And the easiest way would be to give the power to only some volunteer military people that meet the requirements and to net payers to the fisc.
We can also include people with valuable skills that benefit the society, like doctors, engineers and the like.
There are also lots of dirty, socially vital jobs that might need volunteers to improve them, like a variety of emergency services as well as stuff like education, because a strong nation needs to produce thinking, productive and patriotic citizens, but that will require a massive reform, since right now most countries are just trying to make dumb drones and dole leeches and sheeple taxpayers.
A few teachers that can explain how actual economics works to some students, or get them to go into the natural sciences, as opposed to just sucking off the government teat, can have a huge impact on the nation's well being.
But we on the right are increasingly letting education turn into an overpriced daycare that coddles dumb brats and instills no discipline, or knowledge.
I am reminded of one scifi book where these blind crustaceans had "teachers" who literally had to capture the young of the species and force them to "speak", think and frigging stop eating each-other.
We are doing the same, every generation or so every single society as assailed by an army of barbariens, we call them kids and teenagers.
And what do we do?
We let tiktok and social media and advertising and MTV and the purple haired otherkin buffoons run shit in education.
Yes, that is because of the steady dilution the vote and letting all sorts of parasites vote for what is basically an uni-party run by the same corrupt elite with the same buddies and agendas.
No, the last thing we want is government workers getting to vote on if the government should expand. Because Bureaucracy will quickly make sure that they qualify.
Though I do disagree on the tax part: tax dodging is a moral good, and shouldn't be discriminated against!
Agent23
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Yeah, thst is why you need to sacrifice something to get the vote, not get it because you get s nice grift out of it, and plan to vote for more grift.
I am fine paying some taxes as long as they are reasonable and I get s bigger say in how they are spent.
By some, I mean less than 20% on all income and less than 20% VAT/duties/other stuff.
Technological changes mean the professional military system has to stay one way or another, even in early industrial age it was the officers being the military leaders, though a lot of manpower was needed below them. Now? A year is not really enough to even git gud at commanding a tank, nevermind a platoon of them, or servicing their electronics, and let's not even get into ships, jets or more strategic systems of any sort.
It's the least bad form of corruption as it's predictable, controllable and calculable.
Still in the end it's far from the worst MIC around in terms of their price to quality ratio in international arms market.
Singapore runs on third world immigration and authoritarianism, while their expected military opponents are also third world, so they can afford that in terms of incentives and necessary effects.
That's more practical, but still, good luck settling the details and getting that passed through courts, constitutions, parliaments etc.
That's a political problem, not manpower problem. Most of the current teachers would teach Mises if they get told to in university and will get unceremoniously fired if they refuse. But they won't, they are believing and teaching what the leftists and their political allies in ministries and universities want them to, because they would get fired if they didn't. That's one of main problems with inflating the government sector, that's a lot of people the establishment as-is gets to boss around for own purposes.
Ironically, according to statistics, a lot of the parasites predictably don't bother to lift their asses up once every few years to even vote for more parasitism.
Seems like bothering to vote at all even when anyone can do it for free is correlated with some sort of basic level of civic-mindedness too, and leftists hate it, hence schemes with "vote harvesting", compulsory voting and so on.