Military US Military Is Scared Americans Won't Fight For Globalism

[Agent23]

Technological changes mean the professional military system has to stay one way or another, even in early industrial age it was the officers being the military leaders, though a lot of manpower was needed below them. Now? A year is not really enough to even git gud at commanding a tank, nevermind a platoon of them, or servicing their electronics, and let's not even get into ships, jets or more strategic systems of any sort.

Why is 1 year the total time?

In SST they basically served for the duration.

It's the least bad form of corruption as it's predictable, controllable and calculable.
Still in the end it's far from the worst MIC around in terms of their price to quality ratio in international arms market.

Singapore runs on third world immigration and authoritarianism, while their expected military opponents are also third world, so they can afford that in terms of incentives and necessary effects.

It is doing a hell of a lot better than some other countries where value added is concerned.

Singapore Military Spending/Defense Budget 1970-2023

Poland Military Spending/Defense Budget 1960-2023

With a military budget only slightly less than those of some other people.

And they have their own military industrial complex, and are a major arms dealer:

ST Kinetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Singapore is world's 20th biggest arms exporter

That's more practical, but still, good luck settling the details and getting that passed through courts, constitutions, parliaments etc.

That's a political problem, not manpower problem. Most of the current teachers would teach Mises if they get told to in university and will get unceremoniously fired if they refuse. But they won't, they are believing and teaching what the leftists and their political allies in ministries and universities want them to, because they would get fired if they didn't. That's one of main problems with inflating the government sector, that's a lot of people the establishment as-is gets to boss around for own purposes.

And you see me contradicting this, which was my own point, where exactly?

Ironically, according to statistics, a lot of the parasites predictably don't bother to lift their asses up once every few years to even vote for more parasitism.

Yeah, sure, tell that to the paid electorates of ghetto blacks, UK ghetto Pakistanis and ghetto roma all over the place, some of which get paid directly to vote.

You do not need all of them and the parasite bureaucracy around them to vote, just enough to dilute the vote of the right.

Seems like bothering to vote at all even when anyone can do it for free is correlated with some sort of basic level of civic-mindedness too, and leftists hate it, hence schemes with "vote harvesting", compulsory voting and so on.

Vote harvesting is exactly the type of bullshit we need to block.

 

[Bassoe]

Aside from the obvious problems that slavery remains morally wrong and a civilization which can't voluntarily motivate enough of its inhabitants to fight its wars deserves to lose them, none of this is taking into account the fact that the majority of the American military isn't "defending us" nor necessary to do so. We could cut the military down to nuclear second-strike MAD deterrence and still be impossible to invade.

The current status quo is making things worse for us. Bush's "fight them over there so we don't fight them here" transformed into:

1. Invade and bomb Over There™ and worst, not even the right portion (Iraq) of Over There™ actually responsible for attacking us (Saudi Arabia).
2. This ensures the survivors hate us for destroying their homes and killing their friends and families.
3. Now that the survivors are definitely radicalized against us, even if they weren't before, invite them Over Here™ in vast numbers as refugees fleeing the destruction we inflicted.
4. When they inevitably carry out terrorist attacks Over Here™, use it as justification to invade another portion of Over There™ and repeat the cycle.

 

[Marduk]

Why is 1 year the total time?

In SST they basically served for the duration.

Paper will take everything. But that in turn would mean little "turnover", few percent of people vote.

It is doing a hell of a lot better than some other countries where value added is concerned.

City state with line must go up policy and rich people attraction vs normal medium country. You should know better than try to compare that. Next thing i know you will claim Luxemburg is a perfectly normal example of EU country.

https://dollarsandsense.sg/singapores-average-household-income-different-salaries-earn/

With more than 80% of people in Singapore living in HDB flats, the household income for HDB flats may be most relevant for many of us. Naturally, those who live in bigger HDB flats also tend to earn a larger household income.

Monthly Household Income by Type of Dwelling ($)
	2021	2022
Average	$12,276	$13,124
1- & 2-Room HDB Flat	$3,174	$3,588
3-Room HDB Flat	$6,894	$7,189
4-Room HDB Flat	$9,771	$10,385
5-Room & Executive HDB Flat	$13,136	$13,814
Condominiums and Other Apartments	$19,935	$21,497
Landed Properties	$25,425	$26,659

Singapore Military Spending/Defense Budget 1970-2023

Poland Military Spending/Defense Budget 1960-2023

With a military budget only slightly less than those of some other people.

Of course, they are in a kinda Israel like situation, with need to be prepared to try stop a Malaysian or Indonesian bumrush.

And they have their own military industrial complex, and are a major arms dealer:

ST Kinetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Singapore is world's 20th biggest arms exporter

Jump of 11 spots seen as a spike, not a trend, and is result of recent large sales

And you see me contradicting this, which was my own point, where exactly?

Ok? I can't read your mind whether you will contradict it or not, but you implied it is a problem that would be fixed by changing the people who do the job, while it requires changing he people who give them orders regardless of who will do the job.

Yeah, sure, tell that to the paid electorates of ghetto blacks, UK ghetto Pakistanis and ghetto roma all over the place, some of which get paid directly to vote.

You do not need all of them and the parasite bureaucracy around them to vote, just enough to dilute the vote of the right.

Paying for it should be putting people in prison, and many of them should not be in a position to vote in the first place.

Vote harvesting is exactly the type of bullshit we need to block.

Oh absolutely. It's too exploitable, and even when not exploited, it's a crutch for the parasite lobby to get parasites over their parasitism at least enough to draw an x on a piece of paper sometime.

Aside from the obvious problems that slavery remains morally wrong and a civilization which can't voluntarily motivate enough of its inhabitants to fight its wars deserves to lose them, none of this is taking into account the fact that the majority of the American military isn't "defending us" nor necessary to do so. We could cut the military down to nuclear second-strike MAD deterrence and still be impossible to invade.

It's not middle ages, if you "muh slavery" country is not a superpower and get attacked by a competent opponent, "motivating" enough people, gathering them and training them will take so much time in some scenarios it's gonna be over before they start fighting even if they want to.

The current status quo is making things worse for us. Bush's "fight them over there so we don't fight them here" transformed into:

1. Invade and bomb Over There™ and worst, not even the right portion (Iraq) of Over There™ actually responsible for attacking us (Saudi Arabia).
2. This ensures the survivors hate us for destroying their homes and killing their friends and families.
3. Now that the survivors are definitely radicalized against us, even if they weren't before, invite them Over Here™ in vast numbers as refugees fleeing the destruction we inflicted.
4. When they inevitably carry out terrorist attacks Over Here™, use it as justification to invade another portion of Over There™ and repeat the cycle.

Leftists legends, leftist problems, leftist solutions.

 

[King Arts]

The reasoning is that owning some land entails a certain bare minimum of competence that is not assured of impoverished tenants. Additionally, due to the frontier lifestyle still being common, the vast majority of landowning households were small farms, meaning that voting power rested primarily in "the middle class" as it was at the time.

Now, look at where the Democrats are getting their votes. Then tell me that removing this qualification has nothing to do with the intensity of problems.

I understand what the reasoning was. It was wrong because those land owners voted for the wrong things annd were not competent and themselves expanded the franchise.

Also the worst offenders of the left are the affluent not the poor. So No having wealth requirements for voting which is what a land requirement is would just give us idiotic spoiled brats as voters.

No, the last thing we want is government workers getting to vote on if the government should expand. Because Bureaucracy will quickly make sure that they qualify.

Though I do disagree on the tax part: tax dodging is a moral good, and shouldn't be discriminated against!

Well the thing is in starship troopers government workers were not allowed to vote. FORMER government workers were. If you are currently in the military or government service you don’t get the vote till you get out. Even if you meet the year long requirement if you are doing it as a career you don’t get the vote till retirement.

 

[Aldarion]

Aside from the obvious problems that slavery remains morally wrong and a civilization which can't voluntarily motivate enough of its inhabitants to fight its wars deserves to lose them, none of this is taking into account the fact that the majority of the American military isn't "defending us" nor necessary to do so. We could cut the military down to nuclear second-strike MAD deterrence and still be impossible to invade.

The current status quo is making things worse for us. Bush's "fight them over there so we don't fight them here" transformed into:

1. Invade and bomb Over There™ and worst, not even the right portion (Iraq) of Over There™ actually responsible for attacking us (Saudi Arabia).
2. This ensures the survivors hate us for destroying their homes and killing their friends and families.
3. Now that the survivors are definitely radicalized against us, even if they weren't before, invite them Over Here™ in vast numbers as refugees fleeing the destruction we inflicted.
4. When they inevitably carry out terrorist attacks Over Here™, use it as justification to invade another portion of Over There™ and repeat the cycle.

Eh, that is mostly US and Euro plutocrats trying to destroy Europe for the sake of their pockets. Once you realize that, points 1-4 actually make perfect sense.

Rulers of this world are not stupid; they are evil.

 

[Agent23]

Paper will take everything. But that in turn would mean little "turnover", few percent of people vote.

City state with line must go up policy and rich people attraction vs normal medium country. You should know better than try to compare that. Next thing i know you will claim Luxemburg is a perfectly normal example of EU country.

https://dollarsandsense.sg/singapores-average-household-income-different-salaries-earn/

With more than 80% of people in Singapore living in HDB flats, the household income for HDB flats may be most relevant for many of us. Naturally, those who live in bigger HDB flats also tend to earn a larger household income.

Monthly Household Income by Type of Dwelling ($)
	2021	2022
Average	$12,276	$13,124
1- & 2-Room HDB Flat	$3,174	$3,588
3-Room HDB Flat	$6,894	$7,189
4-Room HDB Flat	$9,771	$10,385
5-Room & Executive HDB Flat	$13,136	$13,814
Condominiums and Other Apartments	$19,935	$21,497
Landed Properties	$25,425	$26,659

Much higher up the value chain than you are.

Much smaller, yet has an almost comparable military budget, makes a lot of its own weapons...

Sure, sure.

Poland: average monthly gross wages 2022 | Statista

6k zloty, is, what, below 1400 usd/eur?

Even the lowest segment makes more than your average.

Of course, they are in a kinda Israel like situation, with need to be prepared to try stop a Malaysian or Indonesian bumrush.

Yes, and Malaysia is not exactly an Africa/middle east level non-entity.

Jump of 11 spots seen as a spike, not a trend, and is result of recent large sales

Still, it is an impressive domestic industry.

Ok? I can't read your mind whether you will contradict it or not, but you implied it is a problem that would be fixed by changing the people who do the job, while it requires changing he people who give them orders regardless of who will do the job.

Paying for it should be putting people in prison, and many of them should not be in a position to vote in the first place.

payment can always be indirect, and good luck proving that even the direct payments, pressure and vote harvesting happen.

Oh absolutely. It's too exploitable, and even when not exploited, it's a crutch for the parasite lobby to get parasites over their parasitism at least enough to draw an x on a piece of paper sometime.


It's not middle ages, if you "muh slavery" country is not a superpower and get attacked by a competent opponent, "motivating" enough people, gathering them and training them will take so much time in some scenarios it's gonna be over before they start fighting even if they want to.

Because nuclear weapons are not a thing...

And can you explain again why we should over-expand the franchise to cover too many people?

The less voters there are the more valuable your vote is, hence the more incentive you will have to stay part of whatever national service you are practicing, especially if you consider yourself some type of patriot.

Skin in the game.

Leftists legends, leftist problems, leftist solutions.

Neo/tradcon talking points.

Go to that war memoria of the battle for Chattanooga Tennessee where the US managed to vanquish the combined forces of Pol Pot, Ho Chi Mihn, Mao and Brezhnev lately?


What about that one that is for the western victims of Saddam's WMDs?

Oh, yeah, that was a neocon delusion.

 

[Marduk]

Much higher up the value chain than you are.

Much smaller, yet has an almost comparable military budget, makes a lot of its own weapons...

Sure, sure.

Poland: average monthly gross wages 2022 | Statista

6k zloty, is, what, below 1400 usd/eur?

Even the lowest segment makes more than your average.

Wage vs household income, dude, don't try this with me, it's tiring.

payment can always be indirect, and good luck proving that even the direct payments, pressure and vote harvesting happen.

Job for internal security, do sting ops if need be.

Because nuclear weapons are not a thing...

Last resort, useless for sneaky and borderline shit.

And can you explain again why we should over-expand the franchise to cover too many people?

The less voters there are the more valuable your vote is, hence the more incentive you will have to stay part of whatever national service you are practicing, especially if you consider yourself some type of patriot.

Skin in the game.

Inb4 massive lobbying on specific lines and conditions of franchise. No guarantee bullshit will happen there, but i would bet it will.

Neo/tradcon talking points.

Go to that war memoria of the battle for Chattanooga Tennessee where the US managed to vanquish the combined forces of Pol Pot, Ho Chi Mihn, Mao and Brezhnev lately?


What about that one that is for the western victims of Saddam's WMDs?

Oh, yeah, that was a neocon delusion.

Don't care about leftist criticisms of neocons.

 

[Agent23]

Wage vs household income, dude, don't try this with me, it's tiring.

Unless you are a magnste and get lots of passive income from your rststes your household income is a paecentage of your wages.One you get after you remove taxes and the like.

Job for internal security, do sting ops if need be.

And when companies that grt government building contracts and they employ particular parts of the electorate...
Aaand when the people you are supposed to audit actually control your budget....


Let me introduce you to a fun little game called POLITICS.

Last resort, useless for sneaky and borderline shit.

Inb4 massive lobbying on specific lines and conditions of franchise. No guarantee bullshit will happen there, but i would bet it will.

Yes, so perhaps a slightly better system than we have now in the worst case.

Don't care about leftist criticisms of neocons.

Nice non-argument.I don't care about neocons and leftists, they are both retarded.

 

[Abhorsen]

Well the thing is in starship troopers government workers were not allowed to vote. FORMER government workers were. If you are currently in the military or government service you don’t get the vote till you get out. Even if you meet the year long requirement if you are doing it as a career you don’t get the vote till retirement.

I don't want former bureaucrats to vote. IMO, any government worker other than frontline combatants should instead lose (probably permanently) the right to vote, as they do not produce stuff and live off of theft.

 

[Agent23]

I don't want former bureaucrats to vote. IMO, any government worker other than frontline combatants should instead lose (probably permanently) the right to vote, as they do not produce stuff and live off of theft.

Um, you have doctors and other medical personnel, firefighters, police...

 

[Abhorsen]

Um, you have doctors and other medical personnel, firefighters, police...

Doctors and medical personal don't work for the government in the US, and shouldn't be anywhere. Yes, cops shouldn't vote. And firefighting should either be privatized, or in some places its done on a volunteer basis, or again, lose the right to vote. If you are getting public funds, you shouldn't be able to vote for more public funds to be given to you, or on your job in general, or on other public servants jobs, etc.

 

[King Arts]

Doctors and medical personal don't work for the government in the US, and shouldn't be anywhere. Yes, cops shouldn't vote. And firefighting should either be privatized, or in some places its done on a volunteer basis, or again, lose the right to vote. If you are getting public funds, you shouldn't be able to vote for more public funds to be given to you, or on your job in general, or on other public servants jobs, etc.

Brain dead take.

 

[Agent23]

Doctors and medical personal don't work for the government in the US,

Most of the world does not work like the USA, though...

and shouldn't be anywhere. Yes, cops shouldn't vote. And firefighting should either be privatized, or in some places its done on a volunteer basis, or again, lose the right to vote. If you are getting public funds, you shouldn't be able to vote for more public funds to be given to you, or on your job in general, or on other public servants jobs, etc.

And if a lot of these services become volunteer based but still government sanctioned and run, then will you be ok with them gaining the right vote?

Brain dead take.

American libertarianism does a lot of things right, and is worng about some stuff.

 

[Marduk]

Brain dead take.

It happens rarely but i will agree, that's one of few services that western governments aren't fucking up badly so far.
Though in Poland, which is known to have a good system on a budget, most of it is local government funded volunteer units, numbering around 230k people, while central government fire service has only like 32k, though with more specialist capabilities.

 

[Batrix2070]

Doctors and medical personal don't work for the government in the US, and shouldn't be anywhere. Yes, cops shouldn't vote. And firefighting should either be privatized, or in some places its done on a volunteer basis, or again, lose the right to vote. If you are getting public funds, you shouldn't be able to vote for more public funds to be given to you, or on your job in general, or on other public servants jobs, etc.

Honestly, I've seen a lot of thoughtless statements, but this time, you really made a good point.

Brain dead take.

I would say more like ideological fanaticism mixed with amerocentrism. A thing typical of an American believing in an idea, at one time it is useful, at others it leads to disaster.
Although here he is not exaggerating so much, as @Marduk mentioned, the overwhelming majority of Polish firefighters are volunteers who voluntarily engage in firefighting in addition to their regular jobs, while the state deals with specialized cases. This system has actually been in place for more than two centuries, so it's as possible.. But let's emphasize, we have volunteer and state fire departments. No private Fire Department, it's just asking for trouble. Such things should either be organized by the government or created from the bottom up as non-profit organizations by ordinary people.

 

[Zachowon]

Technological changes mean the professional military system has to stay one way or another, even in early industrial age it was the officers being the military leaders, though a lot of manpower was needed below them. Now? A year is not really enough to even git gud at commanding a tank, nevermind a platoon of them, or servicing their electronics, and let's not even get into ships, jets or more strategic systems of any sort.

It's the least bad form of corruption as it's predictable, controllable and calculable.
Still in the end it's far from the worst MIC around in terms of their price to quality ratio in international arms market.

Singapore runs on third world immigration and authoritarianism, while their expected military opponents are also third world, so they can afford that in terms of incentives and necessary effects.

That's more practical, but still, good luck settling the details and getting that passed through courts, constitutions, parliaments etc.

That's a political problem, not manpower problem. Most of the current teachers would teach Mises if they get told to in university and will get unceremoniously fired if they refuse. But they won't, they are believing and teaching what the leftists and their political allies in ministries and universities want them to, because they would get fired if they didn't. That's one of main problems with inflating the government sector, that's a lot of people the establishment as-is gets to boss around for own purposes.

Ironically, according to statistics, a lot of the parasites predictably don't bother to lift their asses up once every few years to even vote for more parasitism.
Seems like bothering to vote at all even when anyone can do it for free is correlated with some sort of basic level of civic-mindedness too, and leftists hate it, hence schemes with "vote harvesting", compulsory voting and so on.

I mean, you can learn a lot in a year in the military, just total training BEFORE you actually are in the real military is the issue

Doctors and medical personal don't work for the government in the US, and shouldn't be anywhere. Yes, cops shouldn't vote. And firefighting should either be privatized, or in some places its done on a volunteer basis, or again, lose the right to vote. If you are getting public funds, you shouldn't be able to vote for more public funds to be given to you, or on your job in general, or on other public servants jobs, etc.

So, except combat arms, no one in the military should be able to vote then?

 

[Agent23]

I just love how this is turning into a conversation about Ambulance workers/Firemen from one about, whatever we were discussing before...

EDIT since this is OT anyway, but we are talking about voting: @Batrix2070 @Marduk and @ATP and @Buba I certainly hope you guys did not forget to vote against the Eurostooge closet gay and his new phone company platform.

 

[Abhorsen]

Brain dead take.

I didn't say privatize it. I said that would be the one way to have it and preserve the vote (to shorten the sentence "it should be privatized or lose the right to vote"). I purposely left a variety of options available.

So, except combat arms, no one in the military should be able to vote then?

Yeah. The reason isn't that I hate the military. I don't hate public firefighters or cops either. It's that I know that if it's not that way, suddenly the 'military' will expand to be in charge of regular bureaucracy. The only way to exclude them would be combat arms, people at actual risk of dying. Maybe you could have firefighters who go through a minimum number of burning buildings/year be excluded from this, IDK. But it needs to be risky enough that you can't squeeze a bureaucrat inside of it.

Also, this expands to those that receive public funds generally. Federal contractors? No vote. People on the dole? No vote. And so on. A homeless person who doesn't use government assistant? Vote.

 

[Zachowon]

I didn't say privatize it. I said that would be the one way to have it and preserve the vote (to shorten the sentence "it should be privatized or lose the right to vote"). I purposely left a variety of options available.

Yeah. The reason isn't that I hate the military. I don't hate public firefighters or cops either. It's that I know that if it's not that way, suddenly the 'military' will expand to be in charge of regular bureaucracy. The only way to exclude them would be combat arms, people at actual risk of dying. Maybe you could have firefighters who go through a minimum number of burning buildings/year be excluded from this, IDK. But it needs to be risky enough that you can't squeeze a bureaucrat inside of it.

Also, this expands to those that receive public funds generally. Federal contractors? No vote. People on the dole? No vote. And so on. A homeless person who doesn't use government assistant? Vote.

So... @S'task, can't vote
I can't vote.
90% of the military can't vote.
But not you have a bunch if infantry and SF officers who are the only ones who can vote.
Could be great, could backfire horribly

 

[Abhorsen]

So... @S'task, can't vote
I can't vote.
90% of the military can't vote.
But not you have a bunch if infantry and SF officers who are the only ones who can vote.
Could be great, could backfire horribly

Yeah, but also the teachers can't vote, those on welfare can't vote, teachers can't vote, and bureaucrats can't vote.

Look, ultimately I don't view voting as a right or a goal. Democracy is simply a system. The goal is maximum freedom with some sense of order.

Most of the world does not work like the USA, though...

It should be more like it, but yeah, in the mean time, don't vote.

And if a lot of these services become volunteer based but still government sanctioned and run, then will you be ok with them gaining the right vote?

Yeah. That to me is a self solving problem.