Warbirds Thread

[Zachowon]

Fighter 'generations' have become meaningless qualifiers, used for marketing teams to try to convince people 'ours is better than the competitor's'.

US has always been the defined of it..

They already put it into production without having even a test flight? And I thought the Soviets were terrible with pushing designs that had not been sufficiently tested into production.

Jokes aside, this the first of six prototypes. There will be extensive testing and aircraft will enter production once most of the encountered problems are dealt with.

You do know that they have been testing it right?

 

[Bacle]

They already put it into production without having even a test flight? And I thought the Soviets were terrible with pushing designs that had not been sufficiently tested into production.

Jokes aside, this the first of six prototypes. There will be extensive testing and aircraft will enter production once most of the encountered problems are dealt with.

Uh, no.

They have obviously done test flights and such before doing the public roll out. The roll out usually only happens once the main body of testing is done and the air frames/assembly lines are set for full production.

 

[TheRejectionist]

They already put it into production without having even a test flight? And I thought the Soviets were terrible with pushing designs that had not been sufficiently tested into production.

Jokes aside, this the first of six prototypes. There will be extensive testing and aircraft will enter production once most of the encountered problems are dealt with.

Pardon me guys, but hasn't this company the same reputation and history of Lockheed of planes that are badly built or have the tendency to crash when their about to land or similar?

 

[Captain X]

Can't say I've heard that one. They've made a lot of very good airplanes over the decades, including the likes of the SR-71.

 

[bintananth]

Can't say I've heard that one. They've made a lot of very good airplanes over the decades, including the likes of the SR-71.

The Lockheed L-188 Electra (better known as the P-3 Orion), P-38 Lightning, P-80 Shooting Star, and F-104 Starfighter all had serious design flaws which needed to be and were somewhat corrected ASAP.

 

[Captain X]

The Lockheed L-188 Electra (better known as the P-3 Orion), P-38 Lightning, P-80 Shooting Star, and F-104 Starfighter all had serious design flaws which needed to be and were somewhat corrected ASAP.

And yet all of those aircraft went on to serve very well, and aside from the P-80, they're all thought of as very good or excellent aircraft. The P-38 in particular out of that list (incidentally also designed by Kelly Johnson).

 

[bintananth]

And yet all of those aircraft went on to serve very well, and aside from the P-80, they're all thought of as very good or excellent aircraft. The P-38 in particular out of that list (incidentally also designed by Kelly Johnson).

Are you saying that the P-80 wasn't a good aircraft? It was 60mph faster than an ME-262 at any altitude and the basis for the T-33 ... which was still in service over 50yrs after the P-80 first flew.

The biggest problem the early P-80s had was the Allison J-33's tendency to suddenly and catastrophically "self disassemble" when the throttle was wide open.

 

[Zachowon]

Pardon me guys, but hasn't this company the same reputation and history of Lockheed of planes that are badly built or have the tendency to crash when their about to land or similar?

Uh no?
The B2 was made by them.

 

[bintananth]

Uh no?
The B2 was made by them.

Lockheed also has a history of wading into the "we're just guessing" unknown and guessing wrong.

 

[LordSunhawk]

This isn't Lockheed, this is Northrup Grumman.

It has NOT flown yet, they've said this over and over again, what was rolled out was the first prototype which will start flight testing next year. Which they also said over and over again.

 

[Captain X]

Are you saying that the P-80 wasn't a good aircraft? It was 60mph faster than an ME-262 at any altitude and the basis for the T-33 ... which was still in service over 50yrs after the P-80 first flew.

No, I'm saying it isn't a very stand-out one, mostly owing to how quickly the technology took off.

 

[bintananth]

No, I'm saying it isn't a very stand-out one, mostly owing to how quickly the technology took off.

Fair enough.

Compared to what came shortly after the P-80 was completely outclassed. When compared to what came before they outclassed everything in the sky in ways that weren't funny.

Berlin and back from England at speeds a P-51 with a wide open throttle can't keep up with? Yes, that's doable by a P-80 pilot because a P-80s cruising speed was basically a P-51s top speed.

 

[Zachowon]

This isn't Lockheed, this is Northrup Grumman.

It has NOT flown yet, they've said this over and over again, what was rolled out was the first prototype which will start flight testing next year. Which they also said over and over again.

That we know of.
We know the AF has already confirmed the first 6th gen aircraft has already been flying.

Why would they unveil something that isn't even flying?
The F35 for instance was flying, at least variations by the time it became widely known.

Hell, the F35 prototype, the X35 flew in 2000 well before the 09 reveal date iirc.
Followed by the F35A in 06.

So...yeah they have most definitely flown it

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The Lockheed L-188 Electra (better known as the P-3 Orion), P-38 Lightning, P-80 Shooting Star, and F-104 Starfighter all had serious design flaws which needed to be and were somewhat corrected ASAP.

The "design flaws" in the F-104 Starfighter consisted almost entirely of nations like Germany taking an aircraft that was very specifically designed as a high performance, high altitude interceptor and trying to use it as an all-weather multirole fighter-bomber. Lockheed's culpability in that matter extends only to the infamous bribery scandal, not the engineering work.

 

[bintananth]

The "design flaws" in the F-104 Starfighter consisted almost entirely of nations like Germany taking an aircraft that was very specifically designed as a high performance, high altitude interceptor and trying to use it as an all-weather multirole fighter-bomber. Lockheed's culpability in that matter extends only to the infamous bribery scandal, not the engineering work.

The F-104 didn't actually suck in that role despite being "almost but not quite entirely unlike tea" to quote Douglas Adams.

 

[PsihoKekec]

This isn't Lockheed, this is Northrup Grumman.

It has NOT flown yet, they've said this over and over again, what was rolled out was the first prototype which will start flight testing next year. Which they also said over and over again.

They can't hear you over their jingoistic boners

 

[Bacle]

That we know of.
We know the AF has already confirmed the first 6th gen aircraft has already been flying.

Why would they unveil something that isn't even flying?
The F35 for instance was flying, at least variations by the time it became widely known.

Hell, the F35 prototype, the X35 flew in 2000 well before the 09 reveal date iirc.
Followed by the F35A in 06.

So...yeah they have most definitely flown it

Yeah, no way it hasn't flown if they did the public unveiling already.

I had a subscription to "Air and Space" magazine as a kid, and the aviation industry hasn't changed it's production/PR schemes/schedules that much.

They do not roll out the brass like that for something that, if it hasn't passed about 95% of all tests and has tooling for full production. They definitely do not do it for something that hasn't even flown.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Yeah, no way it hasn't flown if they did the public unveiling already.

I had a subscription to "Air and Space" magazine as a kid, and the aviation industry hasn't changed it's production/PR schemes/schedules that much.

They do not roll out the brass like that for something that, if it hasn't passed about 95% of all tests and has tooling for full production. They definitely do not do it for something that hasn't even flown.

That's the typical schedule, but in this case there have been public announcements about the B-21, stating that it has completed the ground test phase but *not* first flight. With the B-2 Spirit, the first *public* flight was after rollout; with the B-21 Raider, the official word is quite explicitly that it hasn't flown yet.

 

[Bacle]

That's the typical schedule, but in this case there have been public announcements about the B-21, stating that it has completed the ground test phase but *not* first flight. With the B-2 Spirit, the first *public* flight was after rollout; with the B-21 Raider, the official word is quite explicitly that it hasn't flown yet.

Yes, and anyone who believe's that is rather naive, or stuck under an NDA.

Though I guess if they were desperate for the PR win and confident in the airframe to a very high degree, televising the 'first flight' would make sense.

 

[Husky_Khan]

British Blackburn Buccaneers

Served for over thirty years with the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Air Force only being retired in 1994.