Warhammer Warhammer General discussion thread: Now with 100% more Space Marines

That's not the case, the legions only rarely gathered as a single body during the crusade, typically they were broken up into smaller formations. Not as small as in contemporary 40k, granted, I think it was closer to chapter strength or maybe a couple chapters.
And by chapter do you mean like the 30k version of Chapter or 40k version?

The first being like Ultramarine Legion chapters with 10000 Astartes, the seven Death Guard great companies with over 10k Astartes each, etc... or the 40k era 1000 strong Chapters?
 
40k chapter, though to my knowledge the 30k era formation of the same name was of broadly similar size.

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From Horus Heresy Tabletop codex book number five and its Ultramarines section.
 
Hm, looks like a slight variation on the standard structure:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/w...cture_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131001033403

With chapters as an intermediate formation to keep track of the companies.
And Space Wolves had great companies within the range of several hundred to nearly ten thousand in place of chapters.

And there were 95000 Death Guard divided into seven great companies.

Iron Warriors had grand battalions of several hundred to 4500 Astartes.

Emperor's Children had 30 Millenials each a bit over 3000 strong.

White Scars had five independent Hordes with 5000-20000 Astartes.

Blood Angels were divided to 300 fighting companies of 400 Astartes.
 
What I find so cognitively dissonating is the difference of Astartes capacity during 30k and 40k. Where as in 30k it takes an entire legion to conquer a planet where as mere chapters do that in 40k. And that kind of diminishes the oomph factor of how powerful a legion is. Like given that legions generally were made up of what would be 100-200 40k era Chapters.

Legions should have been like conquering at least like a hundred planets at once with like a Chapter being able to conquer a planet like in 40k verse.

Individual Space Marines (and squads) have conquered planets in 40k. It doesn't even begin to take an entire chapter to do that.

The biggest difference between 30k and 40k is the degree of opposition though. In 40k, it is incredibly rare to face a developed polity with multiple systems and technology on par with the Imperium. In 30k it was basically the default level of expected opposition.
 
I generally also find the amount of Astartes way too low realistically. Like no matter how super, I find an Astartes company turning around the tide of war in a star systems with fronts in the tens of millions way too few.

I personally headcanon that realistically each Chapter should realistically be about a million strong.
 
I generally also find the amount of Astartes way too low realistically. Like no matter how super, I find an Astartes company turning around the tide of war in a star systems with fronts in the tens of millions way too few.

I personally headcanon that realistically each Chapter should realistically be about a million strong.

I suspect that's because 40k doesn't really show how space marines are supposed to fight. The movies tend to have then just running around on the frontline shooting things, which is not what they should be doing. Typically they're hitting soft targets, key positions, etc, and then moving on before anyone can respond.

IE, a hundred guys could not have turned the tide of WW2 just by running around the front line shooting people, even if they were insanely good at shooting people. But if you have a hundred insanely good guys that can drop in with no warning into any army HQ, any depot, any R&D project, any political center, any key point in a battleline, and just wipe that place out within minutes and bug out before reinforcements can arrive, and yeah you can swing the tide of a war really quickly.
 
I suspect that's because 40k doesn't really show how space marines are supposed to fight. The movies tend to have then just running around on the frontline shooting things, which is not what they should be doing. Typically they're hitting soft targets, key positions, etc, and then moving on before anyone can respond.

IE, a hundred guys could not have turned the tide of WW2 just by running around the front line shooting people, even if they were insanely good at shooting people. But if you have a hundred insanely good guys that can drop in with no warning into any army HQ, any depot, any R&D project, any political center, any key point in a battleline, and just wipe that place out within minutes and bug out before reinforcements can arrive, and yeah you can swing the tide of a war really quickly.
But the problem also is that there is too many targets for a single company to destroy in a timely manner.

Like in a front thoudands of kilometers in length, there are hundreds of HQs of different command echelons along with all other targets like signal units, communication units, etc... and eventually after losing a few times to Astartes the enemy may learn to adapt. Like focusing everything on not allowing any Astartes force make a safe landing by blowing their transports out of the sky with anti air missiles and aircraft of their own.

And a single planet has way too many political centers for a single company as well.

Modern Earth for instance:

200 countries and that means 200 national level governments with each national level government having multiple locations like White House, Congress, SC, etc... and all the other agencies like Department of Defense with their own premises, etc... And then there are the state and city level governments of the world. We're likely talking about tens of thousands of targets at minimun.

And again there are thoudands of R&D labs across the world. Some of which are located underground in hardened bunkers.

Which is why I think the more realistic size for a Chapter would be a million Astartes. That means a Chapter could deploy a hundred thousand Astartes which when you minus the support staff would come to around three divisions or a hundred companies.

With this kind of amount of companies, they could conduct strikes at large enough and quick enough intervalls that the enemy would not be able to come up with a counter attack plan.
 
Think about it this way. If space marines are invovled it generally means heavy firepower is already being used. They are often special forces teams deployed to help battles the IG, SoB, or AM have started and need help on. Put it into perspective that a dreadnought is capable if taking on what would equate to a division of the enemy if they are guard equivalent for instance.
That is without including it having backup. Terminators may also be invovled.

The cain novels when they involve the space marines in the Emperors finest, it shows that the guard do a lot of the main fighting and the space marines drop in as SF.

Remember, the SM are unstoppable by most things not with heavy weapons. And even then it still isn't enough at times unless they are equally as powerful.
 
Think about it this way. If space marines are invovled it generally means heavy firepower is already being used. They are often special forces teams deployed to help battles the IG, SoB, or AM have started and need help on. Put it into perspective that a dreadnought is capable if taking on what would equate to a division of the enemy if they are guard equivalent for instance.
That is without including it having backup. Terminators may also be invovled.

The cain novels when they involve the space marines in the Emperors finest, it shows that the guard do a lot of the main fighting and the space marines drop in as SF.

Remember, the SM are unstoppable by most things not with heavy weapons. And even then it still isn't enough at times unless they are equally as powerful.
But there are plenty of ways to take out large swaths of Astartes. Heck while they're landing just send a nuclear tippped missile to their transport ships path.

Or use tac-nukes on ground against them.

Or massive artillery barrages.
 
But there are plenty of ways to take out large swaths of Astartes. Heck while they're landing just send a nuclear tippped missile to their transport ships path.

Or use tac-nukes on ground against them.

Or massive artillery barrages.
And how often are they in range of said things? How often are said things invovled?
In a cain novel the SM were teleporting, so that would not work. They destroyed an artillery battery by doing so.

You also have to remember. Generally they are able to withstand most of the stuff that hits them, and the enemy is often preoccupied
 
But the problem also is that there is too many targets for a single company to destroy in a timely manner.

Like in a front thoudands of kilometers in length, there are hundreds of HQs of different command echelons along with all other targets like signal units, communication units, etc... and eventually after losing a few times to Astartes the enemy may learn to adapt. Like focusing everything on not allowing any Astartes force make a safe landing by blowing their transports out of the sky with anti air missiles and aircraft of their own.

And a single planet has way too many political centers for a single company as well.

Modern Earth for instance:

200 countries and that means 200 national level governments with each national level government having multiple locations like White House, Congress, SC, etc... and all the other agencies like Department of Defense with their own premises, etc... And then there are the state and city level governments of the world. We're likely talking about tens of thousands of targets at minimun.

And again there are thoudands of R&D labs across the world. Some of which are located underground in hardened bunkers.

Which is why I think the more realistic size for a Chapter would be a million Astartes. That means a Chapter could deploy a hundred thousand Astartes which when you minus the support staff would come to around three divisions or a hundred companies.

With this kind of amount of companies, they could conduct strikes at large enough and quick enough intervalls that the enemy would not be able to come up with a counter attack plan.

I think you're still missing a few details. They don't need to kill every single leader, torch every lab, and cut every phone line to win.

Let's go back to WW2. Let's say the nazis have those super commandos I was talking about, and they go out, kill the main generals on the allied side, wipe out the white house, 10 downing street, and wherever Stalin and his people hung out, blow up a couple ports and railyards, and destroy the Manhattan project, all in the space of a few days.

Now, that's not going to break the allied war effort all by itself,but it will buy time for the field armies to push back, will cripplied the allies ability to coordinate their efforts and maneuver thier forces. And the nazis can just do that again and again and again to keep the allies off balance.

As for stopping them, it's not very easy. Astartes are, above all, fast, and deploying the sorts of weapons needed to take them out takes time. When that sort of weaponry exists in the first place. Remember, on of the reasons marines favor deploying via drop pods and jump packs is that it's really hard to shoot them down (ditto for marine aircraft, which are fast and heavily armored, specifically to make high risk insertion easier).

As for million man/hundred thousand man strong chapters, that's a no go. For one, that's actually not enough marines, even freed of the current political restrictions on thier size the imperium couldn't field enough marines to have more than a handful of chapters, and they need far more than that.

And of course it's also way too many marines, as the imperium is not willing to allow such a powerful, independent force to exist, regardless of how effective it might be.

But there are plenty of ways to take out large swaths of Astartes. Heck while they're landing just send a nuclear tippped missile to their transport ships path.

Or use tac-nukes on ground against them.

Or massive artillery barrages.

40k does not have a lot of tactical or strategic nuclear weapons lying around, and those that they do have are not able to be deployed swiftly enough for this to work (specifically so that what you're suggesting cannot work, actually).
 
As for million man/hundred thousand man strong chapters, that's a no go. For one, that's actually not enough marines, even freed of the current political restrictions on thier size the imperium couldn't field enough marines to have more than a handful of chapters, and they need far more than that.
Basically I would have a thousand chapters each a million strong. Basically retcon it that way.
 
Basically I would have a thousand chapters each a million strong. Basically retcon it that way.

You could do that, but I think it's still a bad idea, though more from a narrative stance than otherwise.

The hours heresy novels have formations about thst size, and shifting the scale of warfare has pulled the focus up the chain of command. The heroes of the heresy era are all officers, typically in the upper echelons of the legion, whereas in 40k we have the chance to see a lot more ground level action, and even when it's following a captain or similar, they're much closer to the action. Because in 40k, the smaller scale of the chapters means the guys in the line companies can actually be decisive, whereas in 30k a single squad or single marine is too small to do anything. Or if we are following a single squad, they'll be off doing something else instead of fighting in the main battle.

There's also a practical element. Right now, you can somewhat easily paint up and field a whole company of marines, with your size you can't, it'd be ruiniously expensive and drag the game to a halt. Right now, you can buuld and paint a while chapter (though it'd be a decade's long process and cost thousands of dollars....which given the time frame is actually not that unreasonable), though it'd be unwieldy to play that force without using apoc rules. You could never do that here.
 
There's also a practical element. Right now, you can somewhat easily paint up and field a whole company of marines, with your size you can't, it'd be ruiniously expensive and drag the game to a halt. Right now, you can buuld and paint a while chapter (though it'd be a decade's long process and cost thousands of dollars....which given the time frame is actually not that unreasonable), though it'd be unwieldy to play that force without using apoc rules. You could never do that here.
I would like to see the needed table size for an entire Chapter vs Chapter duel.

Like I bet my entire apartment floor would be too small for that with like 25-27 foot long and 12-14 foor wide.
 
Well, this a spook coincidence. Speaking of chapters vs chapters warfare, Arch just posted the first video in his Badab War series:

 
They do thier job in lore. They are more if a scaple to the Guards hammer
 
Anyone have suggestions for some good armor support for my Vostroyan Firstborn Sons army?
 
Anyone have suggestions for some good armor support for my Vostroyan Firstborn Sons army?

As a general rule, you can't go wrong with a stock Leman Russ, but as for specifics, that depends on what else you have.
 

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