Does anyone have some experience using either of the marauder bomber variants in 8th or 9th edition? I'm considering converting a HE-111 to proxy as one for 40k, but I'm not sure how useful it would be if used for that role.
Warhammer Warhammer General discussion thread: Now with 100% more Space Marines
- Thread starter Battlegrinder
- Start date
I am nearly 100 percent ground focused so. Cant help much
Space Marines only produce a maximum of two successor Space Marines. The first Progenoid matures after five years, the second after 10 years.
And if Space Marines weren't a bunch of raging idiots, they wouldn't send any Space Marine into combat until after those ten years have passed and both Progenoids have been removed and stored; but alas they are generally a bunch of raging idiots.
Realistically speaking, what SM's should be doing is rotating experienced Marines into stasis after a few centuries and leaving them there. If a chapter gets low on manpower/experience or a new chapter needs to be formed then you break out some of the veterans in stasis. Otherwise you steadily build up a surplus in stasis.
And then, if you ever need a proper SM army the IoM just breaks out the stasis vaults and dumps a few hundred thousand veteran space marines into the fight.
I'm pretty sure there's an in-universe reason why they don't extract progenoids like that and instead wait until after the marine is dead to remove them, though I'm not sure what that reason would be (aside from the fact that "inside a space marine" is, all things considered, probably the safest place you could find to store something valuable). I know that the stockpiles of geneseed chapters do have frequently get raided, destroyed, seized by CSM, etc, so there might be some resistance to the idea of making those stocks even bigger and more valuable.
As for stockpiling veteran marines, I'm not sure that would work. Marine numbers are generally more limited by political concerns rather than logostical ones, I'm pretty sure the high lords would not approve of the marines initiating a large scale buildup "just in case".
As for stockpiling veteran marines, I'm not sure that would work. Marine numbers are generally more limited by political concerns rather than logostical ones, I'm pretty sure the high lords would not approve of the marines initiating a large scale buildup "just in case".
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
I thought that the training period actually was about a decade under the Codex Astartes, so all full Battle-Brothers of Codex-compliant Chapters are ready for Proginoid extraction in the event of their death by not-total-obliteration means... Which, given the lines of what it takes to kill an Astartes, is still kinda stupid for how rarely they should have intact Proginoids when killed in the line of duty.
The training takes a long time, but all the organs aren't implanted at once, it's spaced out throughout the marine's training. Proginiods are second to last, and given that they're deployed in combat as scouts before the final organ, the black carapace, is added (per some sources, anyway), it's totally possible there's less than 5 years between that point and when they get the proginoids.
So, I've nearly finished my marine army, the only units left to paint are some flyers, 2 hunters, (plus some predators tanks and whirlwinds, but those are both low prorities since I'm probably never going to use them again), and the only stuff I plan to buy and build are some of the new gravis troops, a gravis captain, and maybe one of the gladiators. Call it basically 3-4 months to finish everything.
Which means it's almost time to start working on my long-neglected IG, who keep being back burned by marine stuff I need to get done ASAP, or after the anti-soup rules update, the fact they don't quite work as an army by themselves. However since the anti-soup stuff was mostly geared at nerfing marines with IG support and not the other way 'round, I'm giving the list a second look while I tinker with test models and pick out a color scheme.
Right now I'm thinking of running it as scions with IG armor as support, and some marines to back everyone up. I've got a couple squads of infantry, 9 mortars (you can guess what they used to be used for back in 8th), plus APCs, 3 tanks, 2 Valkyries, and a superheavy baneblade and maybe a marauder destroyer if the HE 111 model I've got coming is the right scale. I've also got an arvus lighter and a squad of crusaders, but I don't think they can be fielded alongside IG in 9th edtion (at least not easily). Which is no great loss, the "toss dudes out the back of a flying tin can and have them make with the stabbing" strat has literally never worked as anything more than the joke it was supposed to be. Is there anything anyony thinks the list is missing?
Also, could use advice on color schemes. The infantry are a bunch of 3rd party models from anvil, look mostly like this:
I'm thinking of going grey/dark grey on the armor, but I'm not sure which should be the primary and secondary color. I'm also not sure about the cloth under the armor, leaning towards black but could use advice.
I'm also having trouble picking a look for the vehicles. Fluffwise, these guys are supposed to be an IG-esque force my marine chapter has built to handle rear area garrisons, act as a buffer/liason between the chapter and other IG units, lead the followup attacks after the marines smash something, etc, so one option is to make their vehicles match the paint scheme of my marine armor:
Modelwise, these guys are also supposed to be used as proxies for fire warriors when I eventually start working on my tau army, which will also be using the grey/dark grey/probably black color scheme as well, and so I might paint the IG armor to match. Any suggestions?
Which means it's almost time to start working on my long-neglected IG, who keep being back burned by marine stuff I need to get done ASAP, or after the anti-soup rules update, the fact they don't quite work as an army by themselves. However since the anti-soup stuff was mostly geared at nerfing marines with IG support and not the other way 'round, I'm giving the list a second look while I tinker with test models and pick out a color scheme.
Right now I'm thinking of running it as scions with IG armor as support, and some marines to back everyone up. I've got a couple squads of infantry, 9 mortars (you can guess what they used to be used for back in 8th), plus APCs, 3 tanks, 2 Valkyries, and a superheavy baneblade and maybe a marauder destroyer if the HE 111 model I've got coming is the right scale. I've also got an arvus lighter and a squad of crusaders, but I don't think they can be fielded alongside IG in 9th edtion (at least not easily). Which is no great loss, the "toss dudes out the back of a flying tin can and have them make with the stabbing" strat has literally never worked as anything more than the joke it was supposed to be. Is there anything anyony thinks the list is missing?
Also, could use advice on color schemes. The infantry are a bunch of 3rd party models from anvil, look mostly like this:
I'm thinking of going grey/dark grey on the armor, but I'm not sure which should be the primary and secondary color. I'm also not sure about the cloth under the armor, leaning towards black but could use advice.
I'm also having trouble picking a look for the vehicles. Fluffwise, these guys are supposed to be an IG-esque force my marine chapter has built to handle rear area garrisons, act as a buffer/liason between the chapter and other IG units, lead the followup attacks after the marines smash something, etc, so one option is to make their vehicles match the paint scheme of my marine armor:
Modelwise, these guys are also supposed to be used as proxies for fire warriors when I eventually start working on my tau army, which will also be using the grey/dark grey/probably black color scheme as well, and so I might paint the IG armor to match. Any suggestions?
Tyzuris
Primarch to your glory& the glory of him on Earth!
If you had to pick a SM Chapter to join, which would it be?
Imperial Fists or one of their successor other than the Black Templars.
Practical Chapter / successor chapters with good well thought out doctrines preferring cunning tactics and strategies instead of human wave tactics. And their legacy of Preatorians of Terra standing against several traitor legions alone for several years before Sangiunisu arrived to give a hand is an awe inspiring one. And Dorn is one of the best Primarchs as shown by his leadership in defense of Sol and Terra.
Imperial Fists or one of their successor other than the Black Templars.
Practical Chapter / successor chapters with good well thought out doctrines preferring cunning tactics and strategies instead of human wave tactics. And their legacy of Preatorians of Terra standing against several traitor legions alone for several years before Sangiunisu arrived to give a hand is an awe inspiring one. And Dorn is one of the best Primarchs as shown by his leadership in defense of Sol and Terra.
Tyzuris
Primarch to your glory& the glory of him on Earth!
Why?
I am a crazymf that is why. Being a Cadian or Valhallan fits me so well. I would try to be a Kaskrin/Stormtrooper, and if an Orphan a Scion.
Because nothing says balls of steel like staring down someone that can kill you with his pinkie
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
I like the idea that Geneseed 'matures' and takes on traits from the space marine it was extracted from. With this idea, geneseed taken from a braindead clone that spent its days in a tank would get the job done, but it would be inferior to geneseed that had been allowed to mature in a space marine that had served for a century. Imagine if geneseed had a lineage, with the most promising recruits being implanted with geneseed from heroes.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
While I absolutely love the Black Templars memes, I would still prefer to be one of those sneaky Raven gits. Dem beakies.
It technically does, the marines do keep track of the lineage of each marine's geneseed and what other marine has been part of that line, but that's just for record keeping/bragging.
Raptors or Aurora Chapter.
I'd point out that no marine chapter really endorses human wave tactics, and also that if you're looking for a tactical and pragmatic chapter, the fists would not be my first choice for that. Great chapter, don't get me wrong, but they're a very proud and stubborn chapter and tend to embrace a lot of the more ill-advised practices that marines get up to (refusing to retreat from a lost battle or call for aid, "camouflage is the color of cowardice", etc).
Tyzuris
Primarch to your glory& the glory of him on Earth!
How practical would a White Scars or their successor be?
I'm not a white scars expert, but my impression is that they're kinda middle of the road? Space marines in general have pride issues and tend to be more focused on the honor of their chapter then whatever the nominal mission is, and the scars are like that too. Bear in mind, the Fists are not unique in being proud and stubborn, they're just notably worse about it than the average, just like the Raven Guard are better about it than average but still have issues in that vein.
That's sort of an issue with space marines, they're not really designed (in or out of universe) to be some sort of pragmatic, practical force, so when you're looking for a chapter that is like that you're sorta barking up the wrong tree. Even the chapters that lean more toward the "super soldier" and not "super warrior" side still have their problems, like the Raven Guard. Sure, the RG have this whole "oh, we're totally the pragmatic, tacticool guys that will do anything to win" thing.....unless it involves significantly deviating from thier established gimmick of "the sneaky jump pack marines", then things can get a bit sticky, because they don't always have the assets to employ other tactics.
There's also the fact that what is and isn't a pragmatic, tactical solution will vary heavily based on the enemy. VS CSM, for example, I'd argue the best tactic is just a straight up force on force engagement aimed just at inflicting causalities, even if it costs the loyalists heavily, so long as the loyalists win in the end. Because loyalist marines can replace loses far more easily than chaos, and in the long run the imperium will be better off wearing down the traitor legions via attrition then they would if they just forced them to withdraw. But that set of tactics and logic is obviously foolhardy when applied to something like orks.
I think in general, the focus on the more "pragmatic" space marine chapters misses the point of what marines are and what 40k is (no offense intended, @Tyzuris Coronati, you're just the first person bringing this up but it's a semi-common things in the 40k fandom). People miss the point of what space marines are and how they thing, and are looking for things that just aren't there. People seem to be looking for a modern-ish army, but with bolters and power armor and chainsaw swords, and it's not going to be there.
Take the most ardent, dedicated Ultramarine, with all his skill, all his understanding of his value as a warrior and member of the chapter, all his tactical knowledge and understanding of the codex and commitment to waging war in a professional manner in accordance with the tactical doctrines and wisdom his chapter has acclimated over the centuries. Someone that knows very well his value to the chapter and imperium, how important it is that he remain alive and fighting for mankind as long as possible and that taking foolhardy risks with his life will only aid the enemies of mankind.
Now, with that image in mind, remember that that same marine would think nothing of giving his life to protect his sacred company banner and prevent it from being dishonored by falling to the ground. He would rather die, then let dirt get one a bit of cloth (very fancy, very historically important and meaningful cloth, but just cloth). Also, he and his chapter went to a warzone and thought to themselves "hey, you know what this muddy trenchline really needs? Our super awesome battle flag. Hey, veteran brother Romanius, go stand up on that hill and hold the flag, instead of using any of your hard earned and quite extensive combat skills to do something useful". And Brother Romanius will go up there and hold that flag and be honored that he was given that duty instead of something more tactically effective.
That's what space marines are like.
Take the most ardent, dedicated Ultramarine, with all his skill, all his understanding of his value as a warrior and member of the chapter, all his tactical knowledge and understanding of the codex and commitment to waging war in a professional manner in accordance with the tactical doctrines and wisdom his chapter has acclimated over the centuries. Someone that knows very well his value to the chapter and imperium, how important it is that he remain alive and fighting for mankind as long as possible and that taking foolhardy risks with his life will only aid the enemies of mankind.
Now, with that image in mind, remember that that same marine would think nothing of giving his life to protect his sacred company banner and prevent it from being dishonored by falling to the ground. He would rather die, then let dirt get one a bit of cloth (very fancy, very historically important and meaningful cloth, but just cloth). Also, he and his chapter went to a warzone and thought to themselves "hey, you know what this muddy trenchline really needs? Our super awesome battle flag. Hey, veteran brother Romanius, go stand up on that hill and hold the flag, instead of using any of your hard earned and quite extensive combat skills to do something useful". And Brother Romanius will go up there and hold that flag and be honored that he was given that duty instead of something more tactically effective.
That's what space marines are like.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Per my interest in both Warhammer 40K and World War Two, I've been dreaming up a scenario in which Heinrich Himmler converted to Chaos at the start of 1942. If it ever becomes a full-fledged story, perhaps I'll call it Eight-Arrowed Swastika, considering the violent ideological overhaul that Nazi Germany would undergo as soon as Himmler puts his plans into motion.
Maybe as he's rummaging through his various materials on the occult, he picks up a mysterious text bearing an eight-arrowed symbol that he's never seen before. After thumbing through it and moving on with his day--but unable to get the images of unknown demons and tales of this thing called the Warp out of his head--he becomes dizzy. Soon, he starts hearing voices that speak of the power he could wield if he gave into his temptations. He struggles and clutches his head, vomiting blood onto the floor and screaming his lungs out as the voices become impossible to resist. After a few minutes, it all suddenly stops--before his groans of pain turn to mad cackling, with the Reichsfuhrer roaring his praises towards Chaos Undivided. With that, Heinrich Himmler becomes the first of many to pledge fealty to the Dark Gods.
Maybe as he's rummaging through his various materials on the occult, he picks up a mysterious text bearing an eight-arrowed symbol that he's never seen before. After thumbing through it and moving on with his day--but unable to get the images of unknown demons and tales of this thing called the Warp out of his head--he becomes dizzy. Soon, he starts hearing voices that speak of the power he could wield if he gave into his temptations. He struggles and clutches his head, vomiting blood onto the floor and screaming his lungs out as the voices become impossible to resist. After a few minutes, it all suddenly stops--before his groans of pain turn to mad cackling, with the Reichsfuhrer roaring his praises towards Chaos Undivided. With that, Heinrich Himmler becomes the first of many to pledge fealty to the Dark Gods.
Having been corrupted by Chaos, Himmler would little doubt seek to overthrow Hitler somehow. Unless he becomes overpowered quickly so that not even the full might of the Reich can stand in his way, he’ll need soldiers to help him. To that end, maybe Himmler corrupts a bunch of SS members, specifically those who are serving far from prying eyes (and are therefore unlikely to get caught in advance). The battle-hardened cohorts serving on the Ostfront could do nicely.
This being shortly after 1942 starts, perhaps Himmler is able to nab up Reinhard Heydrich before he’s assassinated by the Czech resistance in June of that same year. In which case, my impression is that Heydrich would become a devotee of Slaanesh. Potentially even something of a Lucius the Eternal come early, vanity and fencing skills and all.
Being a militarized band of psychopaths and criminals known for its brutality, the Dirlewagner Brigade would probably turn to Khorne. Old Oskar himself would likely be a more "dishonorable" devotee of the Blood God's, his penchant for sadism inevitably being exacerbated by his conversion to Chaos.
Depending on exactly how the battle lines are drawn and what kind of conflict takes place between Himmler’s forces and the rest of Germany, I can see other Nazis turning to Chaos to fight them off as well. For instance, maybe if he finds out about Hitler somehow being poisoned/assassinated/murdered at Himmler’s behest, Joseph Goebbels turns to Malal, and is “blessed” with the “gifts” he needs to compete with Himmler's general miscellany of Chaotic forces.
The result would probably entail a particularly horrific German civil war, though what that means for other factions such as the USSR or W/Allies, I don’t know. Hopefully, Europe doesn’t wind up a total hellscape where daemons roam freely and Chaotic warbands fight for table scraps.
This being shortly after 1942 starts, perhaps Himmler is able to nab up Reinhard Heydrich before he’s assassinated by the Czech resistance in June of that same year. In which case, my impression is that Heydrich would become a devotee of Slaanesh. Potentially even something of a Lucius the Eternal come early, vanity and fencing skills and all.
Being a militarized band of psychopaths and criminals known for its brutality, the Dirlewagner Brigade would probably turn to Khorne. Old Oskar himself would likely be a more "dishonorable" devotee of the Blood God's, his penchant for sadism inevitably being exacerbated by his conversion to Chaos.
Depending on exactly how the battle lines are drawn and what kind of conflict takes place between Himmler’s forces and the rest of Germany, I can see other Nazis turning to Chaos to fight them off as well. For instance, maybe if he finds out about Hitler somehow being poisoned/assassinated/murdered at Himmler’s behest, Joseph Goebbels turns to Malal, and is “blessed” with the “gifts” he needs to compete with Himmler's general miscellany of Chaotic forces.
The result would probably entail a particularly horrific German civil war, though what that means for other factions such as the USSR or W/Allies, I don’t know. Hopefully, Europe doesn’t wind up a total hellscape where daemons roam freely and Chaotic warbands fight for table scraps.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
I'd probably join the Space Wolves, because I like their dedication and work ethnics (specifically, protecting the civilians), but especially because they actually tend to think with their head instead of just following doctrine.