Simonbob
Well-known member
As far as I can tell, that's what you're saying.
There's a reason why I'm so supprised at your words.
And annoyed, but I'm used to people blaming random historical groups for their own shortcomings.
History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
There's a reason why I'm so supprised at your words.
And annoyed, but I'm used to people blaming random historical groups for their own shortcomings.
King Arts
Well-known member
I don’t know man you could just as easily argue the reason Spanish colonies failed was because the Spanish did not wipe out the natives like the English did in the Americas, and Canada. So some would argue that the natives were of “lesser stock” than Europeans. I don’t think it’s likely but it’s a more logical argument than Catholicism theology causing backwardness.
No the truth is geography and the benefits certain lands had for their inhabitants.
After all Canada used to be French which is Catholic did the English really improve it that much?
Simonbob
Well-known member
Whom the locals lept at with a desperate passion.
They knew a good deal when they saw it.
Crom's Black Blade
Well-known member
I don't think the disagreement is in "order". There must always be order for any system to function pretty much by definition. Chaos being the rejection of a system. On the subject I think "Order" and "Security" are required just as "Liberty" is required. To have more of one will, by necessity, weaken the other and thus ideally there must always be a balance. Rather ironic considering my avatar is Elric of Melnibone but I digress.
And the society you describe, one which craves security above all else, would hardly be the ones to argue against the blanket of State security. They'd likely champion such abuse of power because it delivers what they desire.
I do disagree "chaos" uniquely presages authoritarian force. Oh it certainly can, authoritarians will point towards it as good as any other reason to justify giving them more power to deal with things, but the authoritarian impulse is inherently human in nature. As a good point of reference the United States enjoyed a fairly prosperous and orderly 20th century post WW2 by comparisons to most other times on Earth yet the moral and political rot, the authoritarian impulses of our government, sprouted from that era spawning the chaos we now deal with. As such I can't agree Chaos and Tyranny are linked. Indeed I would say chaos typically presages tyranny as people get desperate to have order, any order, restored to the situation.
Another point of contention is, I imagine, we rather disagree on what "Freedom" or "Liberty" is. You, if you'll forgive the comparison, appear more to favor the Doctor Doom version of liberty. Namely that as long as a government more often than not makes the correct decisions to prevent detrimental actions and the broad outcome results in prosperous citizens safe to go about from home to work then that is "liberty" or a close enough approximation. Or as you say elsewhere "results matter".
In contrast I take the stance "freedom" is a government who allows no one, by they group or individual, to unjustly interfere with my pursuit of happiness or by extension my neighbors. That I am free not only from having my skull cracked in by wayward bandits but that I am free to make mistakes both actual and those merely in the eyes of my leaders. That results matter less than the process we used to obtain them.
The issue isn't so much perfection or complete liberty, after all any societal agreement of two or more people will involve some compromise to some extent, as differing views of the proper sphere of government.
I wouldn't say "traditionalism" is a triumph or a good in and of itself however. Traditions, yes, since they represent millennias of people bashing their head up against age old problems and thus rather than one's own limited viewpoint and intellect you are treated to a breadth of knowledge. A tradition astroturfed into existence to support a pragmatic ruler's right to rule doesn't necessarily have that benefit.
Its like how Leftists are very much in favor of traditionalism, fanatical even, with the most fervent bible-thumping of their dogma. Its just that their traditional beliefs are of more recent and indeed pragmatic vintage and tend towards making things worse rather than better.
And the same goes for our "Augustus". His traditions may be good or they may be bad but they will be shaped by him for his own, pragmatic, ends. So any tradition of limited-government, and how that's defined, will be by his directive.
The fact he's, above all else, a pragmatist, as opposed to creature of principal, is exactly why I fear he'd give into his darker impulses because a pragmatist will do what is easiest solution in the moment. And it is very hard to pragmatically argue that everyone must do X or die, such as join the Imperial Cult, and stop there.
I would have to disagree. Its not a question on if the "Augustus" will impose his will on others. His very nature is to do that. He simply does it more effectively, and exploits people desperate for security and stability, by creating a false foundation upon which to justify his rule from traditions to religions. Which certainly will involve "compromise" but at his whim and obviously not against anything he truly cares about.
The only question is to what extent is "despotic power" needed. You and @Cherico argue it will be limited in scope while I argue the "Augustus" has already made the Faustian bargain of crushing the rights of the individual for the collective good as he sees it. So the only restraints are practical ones. How much the populace will endure before they revolt, how effective are the tools of the State. The latter offer a degree of control undreamt of even a couple of centuries prior let alone when Augustus was still around. The former may very well prefer security over liberty.
Forgive me, but that's not an explanation. That is a summary of your belief.
While I disagree with it, I certainly understand the concept being expressed by both you and @Skallagrim. It is the "good dictator" philosophy. That the "Augustus", due to elements of his character and upbringing, will intervene and use tyrannical power only for good ends at least more often than not. That he'll step up and sweep all those bad people away and force everyone else to come to the table and behave.
Now if we're only talking about a functional state that makes the train run on times, there is more than a element of truth to the above. Chaos begs for order after all and whatever my misgivings bringing order out of chaos is more or less what defines the "Augustus" more than anything else.
This issue, if I understood precisely what you were responding too, falls more along the lines of the scope of these "despotic powers" and how limited, if any, said government can said to be. In the particular section I referenced you while responding to Skallagrim, I was responding to his assertion that the people would have developed a distrust of an "abusive" state. In brief my position was that a society that had "seen enough trouble for several lifetimes, and they'll want no more of it" as Skallagrim had previously alleged, and which mirrors similar statements made by you, are likely to favor security over their own freedom and liberty, such as joining the astroturfed Imperial cult, and are unlikely to bat an eye at an "abusive state" directed against people they don't like.
So as long as Augustus can frame any intrusion into their lives as Daddy government protecting them, the people likely will tolerate it as long as they have food over their heads and food on the table.
So the only limits are those Augustus himself imposes or practical considerations such as the tools of the State. The latter are incredibly effective compared to previous eras allowing a degree of micromanaging at the Augustus's fingertips should he desire it that would make him god like compared to rules of previous eras. And the Augustus, by his nature, has already accepted the individual has no rights compared to the collective. You will join or you will die, for the greater good of course.
I would consider that a recipe for nothing good, liberty-wise, but I figure there's a pretty simple test. Assume Obama/Biden/Hillary as the Augustus. If you'd feel as safe opposing them as Emperor as you would as President then truly it is a free and liberty filled Empire.
Becouse i stated facts? if protestants you love so much come to your country you would not exist,becouse indians would be wiped out.
And only reason why you are fucked are old stupid spanish kings,and later USA and masons.
Not catholics.Christieros fought not only for God,but also for free market state.
And USA and masons destroyed that chance for Mexico.
TheRomanSlayer
Kayabangan, Dugo, at Dangal
Spanish Kings are Catholics, so they still get the blame. And I will state the same thing I have always said: Catholics like you who are always acting so smug and superior are disgusting creatures that don’t deserve respect and human decency. So if you subhuman scum are gonna cry out about being persecuted, you and your kind deserve it. I have lost any kind of empathy for Catholics like you who look down on “heathens, schismatics, and heretics” and think you have a moral high ground when defending your atrocious actions. Guess what? It only affirms my views of Catholics being natural supremacists that eventually get their just desserts down the road.
It’s also better to be dead than to be poor, because being poor generation by generation can be soul crushing. Not really a spiritual salvation, isn’t it?
At the very least, I can respect Protestants for being vicious, greedy, bloodthirsty assholes, because at the very least they’re fighting for their own survival. Hell, Poland going Protestant would have been a small improvement if they did after all.
So yeah. That’s it. I'm a Mongoloid Austronesian, not the 'Indian' of the New World. I'm proud of my own racial origin, and take pride being an Asiatic, Mongoloid, 'shitskin'.
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Are you trolling us,or...you could not be that stupid,right? please,tell me that it is sick joke!
I refuse to belive,that human beings could be as stupid as you.
Yes,you must be good troll.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Please take this dumb, off-topic fight elsewhere. Start your own thread for that nonsense.
Compilation from polish press:
1.pope is considering possibility of judas salvation - he even get one picture with Jesus over Judas body.It is not longer chrystianity.
2.New goverment in Poland welcomed dude who supported lgbt in school named Izdebski.Well,we truly joined EU now.
3.Polish writer,Wojciech Roszkowski, decided that at least part of our population are new species - homo oxymoroni - people who totally do not care about reality,as long as it fit their ideology and do not hurt them too much.
Good thing - such people do not survive long.Bad tching - they could kill our civilization first.
4.Polish leftist want to stop building mini flats in big buildings ,becouse people there live in bad conditions.Which mean,that poor people would never get their place to live....
5.Global elites have problem - first they made people belive that God is dead,and they should care only about themselves - and now try green madness to stop consumption.In name of what,exactly? nobody belive in Gaia now.
Well,except few real idiots,but it is not enough.
6.People who support new german goverment in Poland have colonial issues - they do not want anything great made here,becouse great things are for germans to do.
And,they do not differ from other poles ,except that they have more money - so they compensate for that trying to shw how "european" they are.
And become upper caste in polish colony,and keep other forever as underhumans.
7.Margot Loehr from Hamburg discovered,that germans during WW2 murdered all babies who was born in work camp there.
Crime and tragedy - but,germans at least let those children to be born,not killed them before.
8.Jesus is only person who created religion and claimed,that HE is GOD. Nobody else did so.Which mean,considering that it religion last 2000 years,that it must be true.
Some people claimed to be gods - but,only historians remember them now.
9.Hungarian writer,Bela Hamvas, after WW2 and loosing all of his property still create new theiry about civilization - that modern people are egoists who pretend to belive in good thing,but behave like animals.Ants even,and turned society into hive.
And,it work till first real crisis - when entire thing fall apart.People abadonned God - and now would belive in everything.
10.Neil Postman in his work "Amusing Ourselvesto death" from 1985 proved,that now media decide what is Right,not,as before,Scientists.
And,in another work from 1995'The End of Education/,that average american student is unable to feel Bach,Haydn or Chopin music - which mean,that they are unable to participate in western culture.
Johan Eddebo in "Off-Guardian" claim,that people are teach to not undarstandt world,only follow what media want to show.
And,science now serve rich owners of media - especially with new GenAI,when average dude could made 2 "scientific" articles using them.
Scientis would become - arleady become in CV case - part of propaganda tools to made virtual reality for masses.It lead to situation,where EVERY information from media could be fake - and we would never have chance to check it.
11.Modern doctors claim,that there is such thing like brain death - but,polish professor saved more then 1000 "dead" people,and they were lived as healthy people later.
Like Agnieszka Terlecka.
12.dr Cowan "discovered" , that we are killing Earh by breathing only - which lead to us getting killed by "enlinghtened" ,as James Corbett warn us.
13.In both USA and Canada children must be maimed,not helped - and,unfortunatelly,big money support it.
14.According to sir John Glubb,average civilization last 250 years .And all fall to decadents.Since western civilization last 2000 years,it is not bad - even if we die now.
Why we last so long? becouse,unlike others,we could qestion ourselves.
If we fall now,it would be becouse we started belive in possibiity of utopia/Julia Ponesse from Browstone Institute/
15.What we facing now is another form of marxism created by Max Horkheimer about 1937,when he decide to destroy our civilization from within,not by invasion.
16.I found nice definition of politic - it is art to discover what is imortant,and what is not.
17. William K.Black definied what is "third road" in politic - group working for Wall Street under disguise of central-left,and pretending to be leftist.
18.Google pretend to be neutral - but,in 2023 63% of articles was from leftist media,and only 6% from Right/AllSides /.Which mean,that we are lied at the beginning,when we use google to check for info.
19.Cabal who take over Catholic Church try to create female priests and other abominations without openly breaking with Tradition ,and rebelion of Africa and Central Europe.
Well,i hope that we poles would rebel !
20. Lenin could win,becouse before him Kiereński faked reforms pretending to be patriot - so people mostly did notching after Lenin putch.
I fear for the same in Poland - previous fake right pretended reforms,so when real bandits take over now,people could do notching,too.
21.Why Poland exist ? becouse we have specific culture in western civilization - ethic in public life.And,since free Poland is only place where such thing could exist,we should dupport it.
That is what Felix Koneczny,czech who decide to become polish patriot and create science of civilization,belived.
22.Why people in big cities follow leftist - becouse they are people without roots,so they could be turn into herd of sheeps and still belive,that they are big important people.
1.pope is considering possibility of judas salvation - he even get one picture with Jesus over Judas body.It is not longer chrystianity.
2.New goverment in Poland welcomed dude who supported lgbt in school named Izdebski.Well,we truly joined EU now.
3.Polish writer,Wojciech Roszkowski, decided that at least part of our population are new species - homo oxymoroni - people who totally do not care about reality,as long as it fit their ideology and do not hurt them too much.
Good thing - such people do not survive long.Bad tching - they could kill our civilization first.
4.Polish leftist want to stop building mini flats in big buildings ,becouse people there live in bad conditions.Which mean,that poor people would never get their place to live....
5.Global elites have problem - first they made people belive that God is dead,and they should care only about themselves - and now try green madness to stop consumption.In name of what,exactly? nobody belive in Gaia now.
Well,except few real idiots,but it is not enough.
6.People who support new german goverment in Poland have colonial issues - they do not want anything great made here,becouse great things are for germans to do.
And,they do not differ from other poles ,except that they have more money - so they compensate for that trying to shw how "european" they are.
And become upper caste in polish colony,and keep other forever as underhumans.
7.Margot Loehr from Hamburg discovered,that germans during WW2 murdered all babies who was born in work camp there.
Crime and tragedy - but,germans at least let those children to be born,not killed them before.
8.Jesus is only person who created religion and claimed,that HE is GOD. Nobody else did so.Which mean,considering that it religion last 2000 years,that it must be true.
Some people claimed to be gods - but,only historians remember them now.
9.Hungarian writer,Bela Hamvas, after WW2 and loosing all of his property still create new theiry about civilization - that modern people are egoists who pretend to belive in good thing,but behave like animals.Ants even,and turned society into hive.
And,it work till first real crisis - when entire thing fall apart.People abadonned God - and now would belive in everything.
10.Neil Postman in his work "Amusing Ourselvesto death" from 1985 proved,that now media decide what is Right,not,as before,Scientists.
And,in another work from 1995'The End of Education/,that average american student is unable to feel Bach,Haydn or Chopin music - which mean,that they are unable to participate in western culture.
Johan Eddebo in "Off-Guardian" claim,that people are teach to not undarstandt world,only follow what media want to show.
And,science now serve rich owners of media - especially with new GenAI,when average dude could made 2 "scientific" articles using them.
Scientis would become - arleady become in CV case - part of propaganda tools to made virtual reality for masses.It lead to situation,where EVERY information from media could be fake - and we would never have chance to check it.
11.Modern doctors claim,that there is such thing like brain death - but,polish professor saved more then 1000 "dead" people,and they were lived as healthy people later.
Like Agnieszka Terlecka.
12.dr Cowan "discovered" , that we are killing Earh by breathing only - which lead to us getting killed by "enlinghtened" ,as James Corbett warn us.
13.In both USA and Canada children must be maimed,not helped - and,unfortunatelly,big money support it.
14.According to sir John Glubb,average civilization last 250 years .And all fall to decadents.Since western civilization last 2000 years,it is not bad - even if we die now.
Why we last so long? becouse,unlike others,we could qestion ourselves.
If we fall now,it would be becouse we started belive in possibiity of utopia/Julia Ponesse from Browstone Institute/
15.What we facing now is another form of marxism created by Max Horkheimer about 1937,when he decide to destroy our civilization from within,not by invasion.
16.I found nice definition of politic - it is art to discover what is imortant,and what is not.
17. William K.Black definied what is "third road" in politic - group working for Wall Street under disguise of central-left,and pretending to be leftist.
18.Google pretend to be neutral - but,in 2023 63% of articles was from leftist media,and only 6% from Right/AllSides /.Which mean,that we are lied at the beginning,when we use google to check for info.
19.Cabal who take over Catholic Church try to create female priests and other abominations without openly breaking with Tradition ,and rebelion of Africa and Central Europe.
Well,i hope that we poles would rebel !
20. Lenin could win,becouse before him Kiereński faked reforms pretending to be patriot - so people mostly did notching after Lenin putch.
I fear for the same in Poland - previous fake right pretended reforms,so when real bandits take over now,people could do notching,too.
21.Why Poland exist ? becouse we have specific culture in western civilization - ethic in public life.And,since free Poland is only place where such thing could exist,we should dupport it.
That is what Felix Koneczny,czech who decide to become polish patriot and create science of civilization,belived.
22.Why people in big cities follow leftist - becouse they are people without roots,so they could be turn into herd of sheeps and still belive,that they are big important people.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
So, I’ve been reading too much Greek history again. It really does strike me how close both Athens and Sparta came to political systems as robust as the Res Publica, but it’s almost like they were a touch too dogmatic to take the next step (Athens could have been more of a constitutional republic whilst Sparta almost invented feudalism 1500 years early).
Meanwhile, Rome seems to take the best of both worlds in how it built its young republic. I don’t know if that was on purpose, but that their political system seems bizarrely similar to Sparta, with the three hundred strong nobility stacked Senate and two leaders (Consuls instead of Kings), alongside an emphasis on military service, is striking. Except of course the plebs had a good deal more representation than the Helots ever did, without being able to ostracise people on a whim as was the case in Athens (that they ostracised Themistocles is mind blowing). Yet the Romans seemed to share the Athenian disgust for tyrants and their system was built to prevent any one man from having too much power (yet it seems, like America’s Founding Fathers, the founders of the Res Publica understood the mob could be just as tyrannical as any king).
I think it has been mentioned how that is common for universal empires in that they take what works and, due to being a frontier state, have no time for the more inflexible and dogmatic stuff, but it is still quite interesting. Italia in general seemed to have a pragmatism Hellas simply didn’t.
Meanwhile, Rome seems to take the best of both worlds in how it built its young republic. I don’t know if that was on purpose, but that their political system seems bizarrely similar to Sparta, with the three hundred strong nobility stacked Senate and two leaders (Consuls instead of Kings), alongside an emphasis on military service, is striking. Except of course the plebs had a good deal more representation than the Helots ever did, without being able to ostracise people on a whim as was the case in Athens (that they ostracised Themistocles is mind blowing). Yet the Romans seemed to share the Athenian disgust for tyrants and their system was built to prevent any one man from having too much power (yet it seems, like America’s Founding Fathers, the founders of the Res Publica understood the mob could be just as tyrannical as any king).
I think it has been mentioned how that is common for universal empires in that they take what works and, due to being a frontier state, have no time for the more inflexible and dogmatic stuff, but it is still quite interesting. Italia in general seemed to have a pragmatism Hellas simply didn’t.
SoliFortissimi
Well-known member
That's because Rome lived in a rougher neighborhood.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
It's certainly true that the emergence of the "winner" of the tumultuous period is almost always a marcher state, or (in smaller contexts), a leader with some real "rough" experience. We might refer here to the vitality of youth, of which a certain dynamism is a key aspect. Stagnation, after all, is death: the inevitable capitulation to the forces of entropy. A culture inevitably becomes set in its ways, and then it rarely manages to succeed. More dynamic ("flexible") competitors win out. In a sense, it's a simple question of adaptability. So... Darwinism at work, on a civilisational scale. Those who can fit themselves to emergent circumstances will cme out on top, and those who are ossified into long-established patterns lose out.
The irony of course is that civilisation demands stability to thrive consistently, and successful civilisation (in a stable feedback loop) produces stability for itself. That may indeed be seen as its core function. But stability is (as we've oft noted here) closely tied to traditionalist tendencies, which rely on the establishment of "proper forms" by whose observation society operates. Which is to say... civilisation produces stagnation. Which is in turn one big reason why we have civilisational cycles. The thing that makes cultures and civilisations work is also the thing that kills them in the end. (Life and death are aspects of the same thing. Go figure.)
But from death, rebirth. At the very least, the fall of civilisations provides fertile soil for new civilisations. At times, civilisations rise from the grave in new incarnations (like China). And cultures, too, re-invent themselves. Not all die for good; some emerge again, different but still. We still see Greeks around. We still see Jews around. (But that kind of rebirth is by no means guaranteed. Mighty few Carthaginians around these days!)
Anyway. The actual case at hand. The way I see it, the Greeks had committed themselves to thinking in systems, to the point where they tried to make reality (e.g. the reality of how humans behave) fit their systems. You see this in all their elegant (but regularly quite impractical) philosophy as well. Very intellectual, but not always that useful. (I say this as a man who studies philosophy professionally: you can get lost in the sheer bullshit navel-gazing. Academics have always had that dangerous tendency, from the moment the "Academy" was invented as a concept. By the Greeks.)
Conversely, to the Romans, systems were only ever solutions to the problem at hand. To be amended or replaced ad hoc, when needed. Practicality reigned. A youthful engineering mindset, as opposed to a dignified and settled theoretician's. Well, you can guess who wins that fist-fight.
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Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
It is what makes the Romans my absolute favourite ancient civilisation. For all their aristocratic and aggressive tendencies, they are so profoundly unpretentious compared to their neighbours (aside from the Barbarians, and in the case of the uncomplicated Germans, they would go on to do great things as well), right down to their vulgar sense of humour.
Rome is so often mocked by Hellenaboos because it doesn't have the same calibre of thinkers as the Greeks (which I'd dispute to an extent, the Romans were merely more subtle about their philosophy), but what they achieved eclipses everything and everyone that came before them.
SoliFortissimi
Well-known member
Greek philosophy is catered towards elite, pretentious academics who think any practicality is crass and below them. Roman philosophy is applicable and down to earth, built from observation and analysis of actual reality as compared to platonic ideals and self-referential religious dogmas.
It's why the Founding Fathers loved the Romans so much.
It's why the Founding Fathers loved the Romans so much.
its also why the Romans won, and the Greeks lost.
You ignore the problems of the real world at your peril.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Of course, it's fairly important to always remember that macro-history is comparative history, so we're looking at relative positions. When we take the long view, we see why the "younger" Roman culture could eclipse the more "elderly" Greek culture, but to some extent, that's the luck of the draw. (Just as where you are born is a lottery, so is when you are born.) I think the greatest achievements of the Romans came before they basically crushed the Greeks: out on the barbarian frontiers of a world-system, life is rough. Dog eat dog. And Rome cut down all the other dogs and ate them raw. And when the wolves came howling, the Romans said "and what do you think we are, huh?" -- and they ate the wolves, too.
That's the real victory. Once you survive that and come out on top, you're already in a place where you can smash the geriatric states next door right down to the ground. And of course we can lambast the Greeks for their characteristic cultural short-comings, but all cultures have those. Rome had them, too, just very different ones. (I'd point to their characteristic inability to grasp the concept we'd call "federalism", which fucked up all their attempts to properly re-organise their empire when things really began breaking down.) The main things is in the timing: Rome met Greece when Rome was in its ascendancy and Greece was already in decine.
Remember, Greece had not been some collection of weak pussies, historically speaking. You don't get to be the guys who star in the Iliad by being weak. You don't hold out against repeated Akhaimenid invasions by being weak. You don't do the march of the ten thousand by being weak. And you don't produce Alexander by being weak. But that last bit is where you peak. Latter-day imitators can't hold up, and the result is a competition of despots ruling over kingdoms in decline. And yeah, that's when Rome rolls up and seals their fate.
And of course, we must ask: where would Rome be, without Greece? Rome adopted whatever was practical, and it adopted quite a lot from the Greeks. I agree that Roman philosophy wasn't actually "weaker" than Greek philosophy. In fact, it was the culmination of the same process. To a large extent, Rome took Greek philosophy, ditched the bullshit, and wrote the definite treatise in clear language. Meditations, indeed!
(And in the same way, they took the shifting Greek mythology -- and mythologised history -- and wrote the definitive version. While adding the direct sequel that made it All About Rome All Along. Which is pretty badass.)
yeah already seeing paralees between the greeks and the europeans with that.
