Alternate History What if Fighting&Killing could only be done in a “Civilized Way”?

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
This What If? Is based around my thoughts or slight daydreaming of modern day army forces being using swords, maces, axes and other melee weapons instead of guns whilst wearing modern day body armor and driving motorcycles

Let’s just say, one day, somehow ALL firearms and things like cannons or railguns or repeating crossbows cease to work

Physically they should, but they just don’t

This makes it so that aside from throwing weapons and bows and crossbows and oneshot weapons or explosives

People have to depend on armed and unarmed combat like the warriors of old

This makes it so that arms dealers change from making guns to creating swords and axes with modern day metallurgy

How does life go when fact of the matter is, guns WERE the easiest weapon to learn how to use, melee combat is much riskier and requires more skil and even bodily training
 
How does life go when fact of the matter is, guns WERE the easiest weapon to learn how to use, melee combat is much riskier and requires more skil and even bodily training
Modern combat requires more bodily training actually, at least physically. We are loaded up with incredible amounts of weight now in the modern era and expected to hoof it around. That shouldn't be a factor if we suddenly switched to melee only.
 
Modern combat requires more bodily training actually, at least physically. We are loaded up with incredible amounts of weight now in the modern era and expected to hoof it around. That shouldn't be a factor if we suddenly switched to melee only.

Would we still be using a variety of weapons like swords, knives, spears, halberds, axes, whips etc

Or would practicality mean that armies only choose to use some shortsword
 
Would we still be using a variety of weapons like swords, knives, spears, halberds, axes, whips etc

Or would practicality mean that armies only choose to use some shortsword
No one used whips. You'd probably have majority polearm combat just like you did before only with more modernized armor and technology. Actually, if bows are still usable that would be the primary weapon of war. Unless what do you mean by a one shot weapon?
 
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No one used whips. You'd probably have majority polearm combat just like you did before only with more modernized armor and technology. Actually, if bows are still usable that would be the primary weapon of war. Unless what do you mean by a one shot weapon?

Majority polearm combat? I thought people mostly used swords and axes

Yeah, bows would be usable

So would crossbows, harpoon guns and even slingshots and catapults
 
Why harpoon guns? Whats a singleshot weapon?

Basically you can only fire it once before reloading

So slings, slingshot, bows and crossbows are okay

But I decided that guns are too powerful, so even a single shot shotgun or flintlock pistol won’t work

Also, I decided on Harpoon guns because I read Mike Mignola’s Hamilton comicbook series wherein the MC uses one to kill eldritch monstrosities and other traditional supernatural horrors he encounters
 
If airplanes and internal combustion vehicles still work, then you have a massive problem, as there is no way to stop them. Airplanes can drop off troops anywhere, when there is no functional AA, while vehicles can simply run down anyone on foot.

Do explosives work? Because if they do then mines, satchel charges and car bombs would play a huge role.

Also razor wire.

So slings, slingshot, bows and crossbows are okay
Thus begins the era of Jörg Sprave.
 
If airplanes and internal combustion vehicles still work, then you have a massive problem, as there is no way to stop them. Airplanes can drop off troops anywhere, when there is no functional AA, while vehicles can simply run down anyone on foot.

Do explosives work? Because if they do then mines, satchel charges and car bombs would play a huge role.

Also razor wire.

Yeah, airplanes and helicopters for transport alongside cars and motorcycles and ships will still be in use

But a fair portion of the airforce and navies of the world will be scrap metal, because they can no longer shoot things

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Tanks(without functioning cannons and guns) and APC will be alongside motorcycles, humanity’s new “Warhorses”

There will be people learning how to drive a motorcycle one handed whilst using the other hand for a melee weapon

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And it will somehow work without horrible accidents

Maybe even a riding partner throws grenades around whilst the motorcycle is going real fast too
 
Why use a lance on a motorcycle when you can ride in a tank and be immune to both? Instead of motorcycle knights this scenario gives us bumper-tanks.

Actually, if one shot explosive weapons work, will a javelin still work?

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No, not that javelin. This javelin...

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That might help with tank dominance a bit.
 
Majority polearm combat? I thought people mostly used swords and axes
Polearms would rule. the Macedonian Sarissa would return along with the phalanx. Sword etc were minority weapons; spears ruled from about 400BC through to the 17th century.

But, the God of War would be biological. Lots and lots of biological. And chemical. Imagine World War One with no way of getting through the trench lines.
 
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Why use a lance on a motorcycle when you can ride in a tank and be immune to both? Instead of motorcycle knights this scenario gives us bumper-tanks.

Actually, if one shot explosive weapons work, will a javelin still work?

Thomas_R%C3%B6hler_2011.jpg


No, not that javelin. This javelin...

https%3A%2F%2Fapi.thedrive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F03%2Fhdh820.jpg%3Fquality%3D85


That might help with tank dominance a bit.

Nope, too technologically advanced or using too much chemical reactions

Want to use a ranged weapon with little practice and physical power? Use a crossbow

Polearms would rule. the Macedonian Sarissa would return along with the phalanx. Sword etc were minority weapons; spears ruled from about 400BC through to the 17th century.

Macedonian Sarissa? I’d think people would be using halberds both because it could be used for stabbing and slashing

I’d still think that swords would still be a weapon used, if only something that’s not drawn till an enemy gets too close and their spear is gone
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Also, modern day metallurgy and engineering, I think would make something better or new
 
Considering every combatant would be wearing something like munitions armor with chainmail covering exposed parts, I'd reckon warhammer or mace would be mor useful than a sword. Not that it would matter much as anyone trying to get into melee range would get run over by a vehicle or gassed. Since there is no AA defenses, nothing can stop crop duster aircraft from dousing the battlefield with VX.
 
Considering every combatant would be wearing something like munitions armor with chainmail covering exposed parts, I'd reckon warhammer or mace would be mor useful than a sword.

Wait? Modern and Medieval Armor can easily take full strength slashes and stabs?

Not what most fiction has shown me.....arrows go through no matter the distance
 
Macedonian Sarissa? I’d think people would be using halberds both because it could be used for stabbing and slashing.
That's not how people fight once we're back to that kind of weaponry. In reality, people form blocks of spearmen who are standing virtually shoulder-to-shoulder and moving/fighting directly to their front. The spears form a hedge of points which prevent non-spear-equipped troops from closing with them. Therefore the spear-block pushes them backwards. In the language of the day this was called "the press of the pike" and was the decisive tactic until musketry came along. The seventeenth century was marked by a steady increase in the proportion of musket-armed infantry (referred to as shotte) until the invention of the bayonet eventually eliminated the pike. The press of the pike was replaced by salvoes of fire to break the enemy line followed by a bayonet charge to repel it.

That's a very brief summary of a complex period of warfare. The point is though that the closely-packed ranks of spearmen didn't have the room to slash with anything nor was it desirable for them to try. Attempts to slash would break up the integrity of the wall of spear-points and bring about an immediate danger of the pike collapsing. Halberds and so on were ceremonial weapons and rarely used on the battlefield. Senior sergeants would have a short halberd called a spontoon which was primarily used to dress the ranks and cut down anybody who tried to run away.

I’d still think that swords would still be a weapon used, if only something that’s not drawn till an enemy gets too close and their spear is gone
Remember those closely-packed ranks of spearmen. they don't have the space to draw a sword and start swinging. Forget what you see on television; battles just weren't fought that way.

Also, modern day metallurgy and engineering, I think would make something better or new
Why? Some things cannot be improved. There's a reason why a 17th century pike is almost identical to a 4th century BC Sarissa. In fact, a 4th century BC Macedonian Sarissaphoros would be entirely at home on a 16th or 17th century battlefield. Improved metallurgy would give his a spearpoint that would be less likely to break but that's all. This comes out in the story The Salvation War; for almost 2,000 years, the human battlefield and its technology hardly changed. The Macedonian Phalanx was replaced by regiments of Pike but the two were fundamentally and functionally identical. It took the introduction of Shotte to break the blocks of pike.

Before you ask, cavalry will usually not break a phalanx. Horses are much more intelligent than humans, they will NOT press home a charge against a hedge of sharp steel spikes leveled at their eyes. The best way to take down a phalanx is to outflank it. (this is what Roman Legions were designed to do).

Considering every combatant would be wearing something like munitions armor with chainmail covering exposed parts, I'd reckon warhammer or mace would be mor useful than a sword. Not that it would matter much as anyone trying to get into melee range would get run over by a vehicle or gassed. Since there is no AA defenses, nothing can stop crop duster aircraft from dousing the battlefield with VX.

This is more or less what happened (excluding the VX bit). When plate armor replaced chain mail, the old idea of trying to bring down the wearer by means of a sword thrust became obsolete. Instead, the use of maces and morningstars, impact weapons designed to crush rather than penetrate became the norm. So I think you're quite right, we'll see the same thing happening. In fact, we are seeing it right now. Body armor is becoming so effective that pistol and intermediate rifle ammunition (for example 9mm or 45ACP for pistols and 5.56x45 or 5.45x39 rifle) are becoming ineffective. So attention is reverting to crushing power and full-power rifle rounds. I think this is what is behind the Russian 9.3mm rounds and the growing acceptance of .338 Lapua.

I saw a demonstration of a modern vest draped around a pig carcass not long ago. 5.45x39 and 5.56x45 were stopped by the interceptor plates with only bruising to the tissue underneath. .45x70 rounds crushed every rib in the pig's chest.

Wait? Modern and Medieval Armor can easily take full strength slashes and stabs? Not what most fiction has shown me.....arrows go through no matter the distance

Lesson for the day. Don't believe what you see on television. Chain mail can be penetrated by a fine point (the sword designed to do this was called an Estoc or 'tuck' and is the intermediate step on the way to a rapier). Bullets penetrate things like Kevlar more or less the same way, they force the fibers apart. Only, modern vests are designed so that doesn't happen. Once plate replaced mail, the Estoc and its derivatives went out for military use.

The primary rule for sword-fighting is that the point always beats the edge. Contrary to popular belief, a rapier used by a skilled swordsman will always beat a katana wielded by an equally skilled man. It's all a matter of reach and speed of response; the man wielding a katana simply can't get past that rapier point. Eventually he'll make a mistake and walk on to the point - which is fatal unless one is plate-armored.

Arrows will bounce off plate armor and are iffy against mail. The English had an armor-piercing arrowhead called the "long bodkin" which was effective against mail (as the French knights at Agincourt found out) but even then most knights were brought down rather than killed (the correct response to a dehorsed French knight begging for mercy is "je ne parle pas Francaise"). The key change brought about by the introduction of shotte was that a musket ball will penetrate a breastplate with a high degree of certainty. The answer to that was to improve deflection angles so that the shotte would be deflected - hence the development of "pigeon-breasted" armor.
 
Man reality is disappointing....i was hoping that there would be guys cutting people apart on a motorcycle
Reality always is disappointing. That's why its real :D. Technically, a block of pike could be anything from five ranks upwards, the actual depth being determined by the forces available and the length of front to be covered. The front rank hold the pike level then each successive rank behind them at steadily increasing angles to form the hedge of points. Now, when we do the maths, we find that (for example) an 18-foot sarissa means that probably only the front three to five ranks can actually contribute to the point-hedge. So what do they do? One things is that they hold their spears over the heads of the men in front to give them some measure of protection from plunging arrowfire. A second is that they provide reserves so that if a man in one of the front ranks goes down, one behind will step forward to take his place and maintain the spear-wall (the Romans were past-masters at that - they actually had drills so that the men at the front could retire to rest while fresh men at the rear would step forward to take their place). A third is that the men behind give the whole formation solidity and stability and push the poor men at the front forward.

So you're the guy on a motor-cycle charging at a regiment of pike. How are you going to get past that hedge of spearpoints? Simple answer, you can't. Not unsupported you can't. You need somebody to break the press of pike - and we're into combined arms. Things like trebuchets and catapults were the early answer but they didn't work too well. The Seleucids used giant crossbows mounted on elephants (a sort of organic tank) which worked very well at Ipsus but was a rich man's way of fighting a war. Basically though, the press of pike, under whatever name it used, ruled the battlefield for 2,000 years until shotte arrived. Absent shotte, it still will.
 
Before you ask, cavalry will usually not break a phalanx. Horses are much more intelligent than humans, they will NOT press home a charge against a hedge of sharp steel spikes leveled at their eyes. The best way to take down a phalanx is to outflank it. (this is what Roman Legions were designed to do).
Cavalry is pretty good at outflanking tho.

the Romans were past-masters at that - they actually had drills so that the men at the front could retire to rest while fresh men at the rear would step forward to take their place
HBOs Rome has a good depiction of it early episode 1.

So you're the guy on a motor-cycle charging at a regiment of pike. How are you going to get past that hedge of spearpoints?
They are allowed spear guns though. Couldn't they caracole, break up the formations then charge through? The Scythians and Parthians and Khanates were highly cavalry heavy forces after all.
 
Say, would polearms still be useful if the CQC were in somewhat tighter spaces?

Think of Guts VS Serpico, a BFS isn’t so good a weapon when there are plenty of large and long concrete poles it would get stuck in

Also, you sure military sabers were never really in use?
 

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