Alternate History What if Fighting&Killing could only be done in a “Civilized Way”?

Also, you sure military sabers were never really in use?
Sabers were used against unarmored or poorly armored enemies, like in the gunpowder era when armor fell to the wayside. The abundance of iron and steelworks facilities in the modern times means that every combatant could be supplied with chainmail and better.
 
Sabers were used against unarmored or poorly armored enemies, like in the gunpowder era when armor fell to the wayside. The abundance of iron and steelworks facilities in the modern times means that every combatant could be supplied with chainmail and better.

So i guess mostly against poorly equipped terrorist or poor communist revolutionaries or something
 
Cavalry is pretty good at outflanking tho.
Absolutely; that was its primary role. The huge weakness of the phalanx was its inability to manoeuver; once it set off, it was straight ahead, guys. no changes of course permitted or possible. This made anchoring its flanks essential. The Diodachi armies had specialized infantry (hypaspists) whose sole purpose was to guard the flanks of the phalanx while the cataphract heavy cavalry were charged with kicking said flanks in. Prodromoi light cavalry were tasked with encircling said phalanx.
One of the things about the Diodochi Wars was how they marked a steady retreat away from the Alexandrine reliance on combined arms tactics and into a single-dimensional operational art that relied on a super-large or multiple phalanx formation. Only the Seleucid Empire stuck with combined arms which was why it expanded so fast. The Roman legions were well-adapted to handling the Diodachi super-phalanxes but I suspect they might have had a much harder time if they'd met an Alexandrine Army in its prime.

HBOs Rome has a good depiction of it early episode 1.
I remember that; Rome was one of the few TV shows that depicted fighting the way it was really done. Vikings is an abortion in that respect; its definition of tactics was "both sides run at each other and fight duels"

They are allowed spear guns though. Couldn't they caracole, break up the formations then charge through? The Scythians and Parthians and Khanates were highly cavalry heavy forces after all.

Caracole was never that effective though; breaking up a phalanx (or a legion come to that) was a matter of mass applied firepower and the caracole couldn't generate it. In the end, the forces that tried to use it went back to shock charges or flanking moves.

In the case of the Diodachi Armies, the phalanx was supported by the hypaspists and an archer/slinger force. A lot here would depend upon what the effective range of a spear-gun would be. Staff-slingers were effective up to about 600 paces. However, nobody was under the illusion that a battle would be bloodless; the operating concept behind a phalanx was that it had reserves who would take the place of the men who went down. A smattering of casualties from spear guns wouldn't change that. What killed the later iteration of the phalanx, the blocks of pikemen (of whom the Swiss and the Landsknecht were the most feared) was concentrated musket fire. They would tear damned great holes in the pike ranks which could then be exploited. Combined arms again.

Looking at the various cavalry forces that were around (the Seleucid armies were also heavily cavalry-orientated for strategic reasons), they were capable at the operational level but they didn't do so well at the strategic level. They could harass, delay etc etc but they rarely were capable of landing a war-winning blow. The Parthian Empire was probably the most effective user of combined infantry/cavalry forces but they were, after all, the successor-state to the Seleucids.

Probably the most effective tactical weapons in this scenario would be flamethrowers. Friend of mine loves flamethrowers. Swears by them.
 
Yeah room clearing with a Sarissa would be literally impossible.
Not quite. Ring the building off and block the exits. Then burn it down. Spear people as they tried to escape. The Sarissa actually came in two halves which were screwed together to form the full 18-foot (some cases up to 22 feet) Sarissa. The half-length would be used for more confined actions. But, we still have the hypaspists and slinger/archers for room-to-room work.

CarlManvers2019 said:
Also, you sure military sabers were never really in use?

Remember, the point always beats the edge. Slashing with sabers causes ugly superficial wounds; puncturing with a thrust kills the victim. One of the interesting things by the way is that the general image of cavalry crashing into a defensive line very rarely happened. Usually what would happen is that once a charge had started, either the line would stand its ground and the charge would break off (say again, horses are too smart to charge against a line of spikes pointed at their eyes) or the line would break and run and the cavalry would pursue it. It's not that sabres weren't used, its that their specific role is not appropriate to the circumstances we are discussing.

The aftermath of Culloden is a good example of how cavalry really was used. The actual battle was over in about 20 minutes; the army under Charles Edward Stuart (aka 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' and actually a vile character) tried its Highland charge and got shot to pieces. I would say they broke and ran only they were broken before the battle started. Anyway, the panic-stricken mass of troops escaping from the slaughter ran down the Inverness Road. This was a relatively narrow road with high banks topped by stone walls on each side. In other words, once they were on that road, there was no way out. The English Army had three regiments of militia cavalry (barely-trained local people) who pursued the fleeing highlanders and cut them down. The problem was, the highlanders weren't wearing uniforms (there was another problem there) and they were mixed in with fleeing civilians. The cavalry couldn't tell the difference and did what cavalry did. Killed them all.

This was where slashing sabres came into their own. A slashing sabre is designed to intimidate and terrorize. It is intended to make sure than an army that is on the run keeps running. Thrusting sabres are designed to kill. Remember the quote from Stargate? "This (a staff) is a weapon of terror. It is designed to intimidate your enemy. This (a P-90) is a weapon of war. It is intended to kill your enemy." Same with sabres.

So sabres do have a role but to use it one has to break the enemy army first. That's what happened at Culloden. There it was made worse by something else. Remember I said the Highlanders weren't in uniform? Some were; they had taken the red coats from English dead at Falkirk Muir and Prestonpans. Wearing an enemy uniform was just about the worst no-no there was in 18th century warfare and being caught doing so meant summary execution at best. You've probably heard the stories about the English pistoling Highland wounded after Culloden? They were the ones wearing red coats.

By the way. given a choice in the specified circumstances between a motorcycle and a cavalry horse, I'd take the horse. Cavalry horses were trained to fight and were intelligent enough to do so. They were taught to bite, kick, trample and generally squelch the enemy. They could figure situations out for themselves and take appropriate action and work with their riders to make the enemy's life thoroughly miserable. In one set of cavalry memoirs, the writer spoke fondly of one cavalry horse that had a penchant for biting the face off his enemies. A motorcycle has none of that.
 
Best melee weapon in Closer Close Quarters Combat?
As stated above. Flamethrowers.

Also, I am thinking that the military may have people learn this from the police

The problem is that policing and military arts do not overlap. They are different environments with very different rules. By and large, military personnel tasked with policing duties do them very badly while police forces that take on military roles do them equally badly. Put another way, a force intermediate between an army and the police do neither role well. This is the basic reason why there are continuous problems with militarized police forces such as SWAT teams. Worth noting that military police have much the same issues.

So, teaching one's army policing tactics simply ruins the army. Likewise, teaching one's police military doctrines simply ruins one's police force.
 
phalanx was supported by the hypaspists and an archer/slinger force. A lot here would depend upon what the effective range of a spear-gun would be. Staff-slingers were effective up to about 600 paces. However, nobody was under the illusion that a battle would be bloodless; the operating concept behind a phalanx was that it had reserves who would take the place of the men who went down. A smattering of casualties from spear guns wouldn't change that. What killed the later iteration of the phalanx, the blocks of pikemen (of whom the Swiss and the Landsknecht were the most feared) was concentrated musket fire. They would tear damned great holes in the pike ranks which could then be exploited. Combined arms again.
I'm sure you could make a pneumatic weapon with enough force to go through most armor. And its not like you couldnt uparmor a motorcycle either. And then a thought had also occured to me, that this change could possibly be enough to make powered exoskeletons a thing, given that you dont have to worry as much about being shot at.
 
I'm sure you could make a pneumatic weapon with enough force to go through most armor. And its not like you couldnt uparmor a motorcycle either.
The history of pneumatic weapons is a bit patchy; the Austrian army during the Napoleonic Wars had a pneumatic repeating air rifle that was effective enough for Napoleon to threaten anybody caught armed with one with summary execution. On the other hand, the Zelinsky Dynamite Gun (a pneumatic naval gun) was a miserable failure. The armor penetration issue is really one of range; how far out will the pneumatic shot penetrate a required thickness of armor? I have a hunch that the most effective use of a pneumatic gun would be delivering payloads of poison gas.

Using motorcycles in warfare also has a patchy history. The problem is no matter how much one up-armors the bodywork, the tires are always vulnerable. Caltrops are effective as are thin wires stretched across roads. Most people who have used motorcycles have usually ended up dropping them PDQ (Germans and Italians are good examples). The big place for motorcycles is as message couriers and I would suspect that won't change much.

And then a thought had also occurred to me, that this change could possibly be enough to make powered exoskeletons a thing, given that you don't have to worry as much about being shot at.

Very interesting thought that. You may be on to something there.
 
The history of pneumatic weapons is a bit patchy; the Austrian army during the Napoleonic Wars had a pneumatic repeating air rifle that was effective enough for Napoleon to threaten anybody caught armed with one with summary execution. On the other hand, the Zelinsky Dynamite Gun (a pneumatic naval gun) was a miserable failure. The armor penetration issue is really one of range; how far out will the pneumatic shot penetrate a required thickness of armor? I have a hunch that the most effective use of a pneumatic gun would be delivering payloads of poison gas.
But in terms of a ranged weapon, wouldn't pneumatics be the most effective for single shot non gunpowder weapons?
 
But in terms of a ranged weapon, wouldn't pneumatics be the most effective for single shot non gunpowder weapons?
I'm not sure. The main rival would be a crossbow and modern crossbows are ferocious things. the problem the Austrian Army had with their pneumatic guns was that they deteriorated quickly in service, wearing out as conditions and use degraded the parts. The third possible contestant would be slingers - a slingshot throwing lead shot is vicious. Skull-cracking vicious. I suspect any one of the three would be viable as battlefield weapons in the OP scenario. Really though, we're still going back to a Diodochi Army (or an English Civil War army that amounts to the same thing). As Culloden showed us, such battles are hardly likely to be "civilized". I saw a TV documentary on skeletons of soldiers who had been disinterred when a mass Wars of the Roses grave was found. The bodies were covered with broken bones and the traces of puncture injuries. They looked as if they had been battered to death which was probably quite accurate.
 
Battle of Towton I think. Bashed by warhammers and maces, or stabbed through gaps in the armor. That is until the Lancastrians broke and their soldiers started dropping helmets and gorgets during their flight, then the swords could be used.
 
Battle of Towton I think. Bashed by warhammers and maces, or stabbed through gaps in the armor. That is until the Lancastrians broke and their soldiers started dropping helmets and gorgets during their flight, then the swords could be used.
I think you're right. Thank you for coming to the rescue with the extra details! It really bears out what we were saying earlier about having to break the enemy army first before swords become significant.
 
Reviving this topic, what would be the longterm socioeconomic problems and changes?

I think people may realise that with guns being useless, they could just carry around stuff for melee and there’s no laws against that
 
Well, there soon would be laws against carrying melee weapons and tools that can be used for such purpose, unless you have a valid reason.
 

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