What would be the impact if *both* Italy and the Ottoman Empire remained neutral throughout all WWI?

Atarlost

Well-known member
Japan would have been of some use and with the straits open it would take pressure off the Trans-Siberians, plus sea transport is a hell of a lot more efficient than even rail as long as subs operating from Austria don't cause too many losses.
It's a question of who bears the inefficiency and risk. If the US or Japan ships to Port Arthur or Vladivostok, Russia bears all the inefficiency. If they ship to the Black Sea they bear the risk.

I believe both nations did sell Russia rifles. IIRC Japan even managed to deliver them before the revolution.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Yes Russia is likely if allowed, to be able to send grain to export and a lot would probably go to the EPs as its easier to obtain than US grain and also can be countered against Russia's own imports.

The thing with grain shortages in 1917 was I think less with actual shortages and more with horrendous mismanagement and problems with the railways meaning a lot of the crop was rotting in sidings. If this could be avoided or significantly reduced then even with exports occurring you could see the revolution possibly avoided or at least no earlier than OTL.
I had thought the grain shortages were a function of the breakdown in the rail system per Norman Stone's book, but this article indicates it was a multi-factoral problem that was simply inherent in mobilizing so many men and horses and taking them away from food production, since Russian agriculture was based on the small family farm:
On 29 October 1917 (16 October in the old Russian calendar), Sergei Prokopovich, the Russian minister of food procurement, had to acknowledge in public that there was little or no grain in government storage to feed the army and residents of the capital. On the Eastern front, St Petersburg and the Russian army in the south had grain reserves for a week, but armies in the north had grain for little more than one day and some of their regiments were beginning to starve. Prokopovich worried that open clashes over grain distribution between producers and consumers could destroy the Russian army and state (Prokopovich 1918). As it turned out, his fears were realised. Ten days later, the Bolsheviks overthrew the Provisional Government and seized power in Russia, holding it for more than 70 years.
Russian difficulties with grain procurement were not well anticipated. Before the war, many authorities believed in fact that those countries with substantial agrarian sectors and grain exports, including the Russian Empire, would switch to food autarky and overcome war hardships more easily than those countries that imported grain (Broadberry and Harrison 2005). Why did the experts get Russia wrong? Why, instead of victory, did Russia’s Great War end in defeat and revolution? The economics and politics of the Russian grain and labour markets provide the answer. In short, it was impossible simultaneously to mobilise 15 million males into the Russian army, procure the grain to feed them as soldiers, and avoid revolution.

It's a longer article, but has substantial data in it so would encourage anyone interested to read the whole thing, as it gets into more than just the problem of manpower mobilization. Peasant hoarding was also a major issue and one insurmountable without using Soviet levels of force...which explains Stalin's behavior later on.

The important point though is that exporting grain would be a disaster for Russian food supplies given the mobilization of so many farmers and horses and peasant refusal to sell especially at government prices. I mention horses more than the article does, but the same dynamic played out in Germany and A-H once the labor and manure of horses were lost to farmers.

This article indicates social breakdown, with peasants and local authorities pillaging train shipments before they got to the cities:

Also if we're assuming a fully neutral Turkey that doesn't block the straits then Russia can import a lot of the military stuff it needs a lot earlier which could have a significant impact on its military performance. In the early years while France and Britain are building up their capacity to supply their own forces most of this would have to come from probably the US and Japan but still a lot better than what they achieved OTL.
It is debatable how much it could actually import given the voracious demand of the French and British for equipment, as IOTL Russia had the lowest priority for US exports, but without Italy Russia could theoretically get everything Italy got IOTL from the Entente/US. I don't really know how much and what that was in terms of military equipment and how much was just raw materials, which Russia already mostly has everything it needed there.

The Japanese and US didn't really have a lot to send, Japan more because of its history conflicts with Russia and desire to reign supreme in the Fare East, the US because it was maxed out supplying the French and British. By 1916-17 there would be more slack to send to Russia especially without Italy in the war, but again with a neutral Italy A-H would be able to interdict supplies through the Straits with its navy, and without Italy in the war A-H would focus on beating Russia instead of having to divert large amounts of equipment and men to Italy. Containing Entente forces in Serbia supplied via Salonika wouldn't be all that hard given the limited rail capacity and domestic Serbian manufacturing, so it wouldn't reach Italian levels of resource commitment to serve as a historical analogue for that campaign ITTL.

Much will depend on the situation in 1915. Serbia will stay in the war due to Entente commitments in the Balkans being possible here without Gallipoli (5 divisions initially, 15 total assuming Salonika could handle that), which will of course attract some of the forces the A-Hs sent to Italy IOTL, but mostly be those the CPs (A-H and Germany) used to defeat Serbia IOTL in 1915. They'd probably balance each other out and Serbia remains a going concern for most of the war if not all of it, but a resource drain for the British and French.

But that means A-H has excess forces starting at some point in summer to use against Russia. Not all of what they had used against Italy would be needed to balance out the Entente in Serbia especially as the war goes on and 1915 is too early for the Entente to have enough extra stuff to send to Russia, especially as they will need quite a bit to keep Serbia in the war. Question is whether the extra A-H forces available will be enough to do sufficient damage to Russia in Ukraine to change the war situation compared to OTL 1915, especially if there isn't a major transfer to the Serbian front in autumn (IOTL those forces were taken off the Eastern Front, but ITTL the Italian front forces in May-June would be used in the Balkans) in addition to no continual build up of forces against Italy. Especially if A-H can maintain sufficient forces on their own to counter the Serbs and Entente Army of the Orient (OTL name for Allied forces in Salonika).

For the Austrian perspective on OTL operations in Autumn 1915 here is the english translation of volume 3 of the A-H official history:
(p.189 is an overview of autumn operations in East Galicia that could well be changed ITTL with extra Austro-German forces not needed to finish off Serbia or go to the Italian Front). If they achieve their goals ITTL of liberating East Galicia and splitting Russian forces the Russian Southwest Front would be pretty decisively beaten and a strong defensive line would be anchored on prime terrain and reserves then freed up to use elsewhere. Brusilov's offensive then wouldn't be able to achieve anything in 1916 even with greater Entente materials support given that there would be better defensive lines and no diversion of resources to Italy as well as a chance to preempt by the A-Hs thanks to having only 2 active fronts and plans to invade Ukraine in 1916. That would mean Verdun might have a shot of working ITTL since there wouldn't need to be major German diversions from the West if A-H could hold its own in the Balkans and Ukraine and perhaps even the proposed spoiling attack against the build up of British forces on the Somme could be launched with German reserves freed up:


Also I should note that the CPs won't be trying to finish off the Serbs in the Autumn of 1915 ITTL because Entente forces would prevent that from happening and more importantly there is no need to establish a rail link to the Bulgarians and Ottomans, since they are both staying neutral here. Instead the CPs can simply contain them with the forces they already had in place in 1915 plus some reinforcements not needed to counter the Italians. Logistics would be the big enemy of the Entente forces in Serbia given that they would have to rely on Salonika with its limited capacity and the rail links being limited into Serbia from Greece; that means they have enough to keep Serbia in the war, but not enough to break out and threaten A-H.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
So, Greek neutrality trampled by the brutal, aggressive and arrogant Entente, eh?
To prop up state terrorism marketing Serbia? In which case any Entente Divisions not-sent-to-Gallipoli-but-to-Serbia will face Balkan Delights:
Just what they tried to do IOTL after Gallipoli:
As the above states the Serbs that were able to evacuate ended up at Salonika in 1916, but remained typhus free due to British medical interventions. It is possible that with more Entente forces there they end up helping contain the typhus epidemic.

IOTL they just had to contend with lots of malaria, which could end up being the major problem ITTL after they contend with typhus:
.
Throughput the campaign the British Salonika force suffered 481,000 non-battle causalities, 162,000 of these were victims of malaria. This total is 20 times more than the number of battle casualties. The front was low on the government's priorities, and therefore fresh troops were at a premium.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
Given that IOTL the Ottomans attacked all the way to Baku and seized it from the British I could see that being a flash point in 1917-18 and the British maybe even diverting from fighting in Europe to try and pick apart the Ottomans even at that late date; they after all coveting the oil and wanted to deny it to the Ottomans in case the Germans won, because even a late CP victory would mean the Berlin-Baghdad RR would still go forward and be massive threat to British interests in the region.

Sure Italy could do that, but once Russia is out they'd be unlikely to want to try. Besides if France is doing poorly the Italians could just as well try to seize things from them. Remember IOTL they sat out to see who would look like they're winning and chose in 1915 to join the Entente because they offered the better deal and were looking like they were winning about to collapse A-H, so that was the time to be a jackal and reap the rewards. ITTL if they wait beyond that to the end of the war the Entente looks weak and French territory is ripe for the picking, all the more so since the British are financially exhausted and at least in 1917 the US still isn't in and the Uboat offensive is seemingly winning.

Given that IOTL the Ottomans attacked all the way to Baku and seized it from the British

Well, if the British are actually in Baku, say trying to help Whites against Reds, or prevent German takeover, and Ottoman Empire that is just trying to jackal easy meat from the Russian revolution obviously won't attack wherever those Brits are stationed.

the British maybe even diverting from fighting in Europe to try and pick apart the Ottomans even at that late date; they after all coveting the oil and wanted to deny it to the Ottomans in case the Germans won, because even a late CP victory would mean the Berlin-Baghdad RR would still go forward and be massive threat to British interests in the region.

Whatever the ideal wish list of some British imperialists may be, at the late date of 1917-1918, with Russia having dropped out of the war, the French mutinies, the U-Boat scare, and the BEF Flanders offensives of 1917 not crushing the Germans, the British won't be dumb enough to start a new war against the Ottomans. Even the entry of the Americans into the war won't offset all those restraining influences, because the Americans really won't be a battlefield factor until summer 1918.

Sure Italy could do that [declare war on Austria at the end of the war], but once Russia is out they'd be unlikely to want to try.

I disagree. They Italians would certainly hold back with the knockout of Russia, but once the Anglo-French-American 100 days offensive has started pushing the Germans back from the Hindenburg and Siegfried lines in France, Italy could well decide to make its move before the war ends without it. The clear signs of German retreat in the west, and withdrawal of Germans from other fronts supporting the Austrians, like the Balkans, would signal Austria-Hungary could no longer count on German reinforcement, and that attacking can be worth a try from Rome.

Besides if France is doing poorly the Italians could just as well try to seize things from them.

I think this would only happen early, if at all. If they did get in on the CP side, it would likely be in 1914, and it has a high chance of being a game changer in favor of the CP. If they stayed neutral though, and have seen France survive into 1915, and Britain grow into a big land power and blockading power, they'd get more hesitant to side against the Entente. Now the collapse of Russia shows something major going against the Entente, but it didn't coincide with CP gains in France, and was offset by American entry into the war against Germany. Also, foreigners didn't know the magnitude of the French mutinies. Sure if Michael or the 1918 offensives work, maybe Italy would think about it (but they still need to worry about Anglo-American seapower) but that would be capitalizing on Germany winning, not making Germany win.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Well, if the British are actually in Baku, say trying to help Whites against Reds, or prevent German takeover, and Ottoman Empire that is just trying to jackal easy meat from the Russian revolution obviously won't attack wherever those Brits are stationed.
Depends on how much control they could maintain over their on the scene commanders. There was a lot of anti-British officers given the rather unpleasant recent history between the countries.

Whatever the ideal wish list of some British imperialists may be, at the late date of 1917-1918, with Russia having dropped out of the war, the French mutinies, the U-Boat scare, and the BEF Flanders offensives of 1917 not crushing the Germans, the British won't be dumb enough to start a new war against the Ottomans. Even the entry of the Americans into the war won't offset all those restraining influences, because the Americans really won't be a battlefield factor until summer 1918.
Never say never. Imperalism was the point of the war.

I disagree. They Italians would certainly hold back with the knockout of Russia, but once the Anglo-French-American 100 days offensive has started pushing the Germans back from the Hindenburg and Siegfried lines in France, Italy could well decide to make its move before the war ends without it. The clear signs of German retreat in the west, and withdrawal of Germans from other fronts supporting the Austrians, like the Balkans, would signal Austria-Hungary could no longer count on German reinforcement, and that attacking can be worth a try from Rome.
Assuming that things play out the same to that point. I had to change certain points based on the potential problems that would be caused by Russia being forced to export grain, so the situation may end up being against the Russians in the long run and they might even face revolution earlier than IOTL due to greater food shortages.

Italy might even jump in in 1917 against the Entente if they perceive weakness, since there were major territorial gain, bigger even than from Austria, on the table if they can join in and push the Entente over the edge. All the more so if they cut the supply lines to Salonika. However you're right that they could jump in late if they do stay neutral into 1918.

I think this would only happen early, if at all. If they did get in on the CP side, it would likely be in 1914, and it has a high chance of being a game changer in favor of the CP. If they stayed neutral though, and have seen France survive into 1915, and Britain grow into a big land power and blockading power, they'd get more hesitant to side against the Entente. Now the collapse of Russia shows something major going against the Entente, but it didn't coincide with CP gains in France, and was offset by American entry into the war against Germany. Also, foreigners didn't know the magnitude of the French mutinies. Sure if Michael or the 1918 offensives work, maybe Italy would think about it (but they still need to worry about Anglo-American seapower) but that would be capitalizing on Germany winning, not making Germany win.
Disagree. If they wait passed 1915 there is a good chance they could join the CPs later on, as 1916 was really not good for the Entente, especially in this ATL if Russia has to export grain to pay their allies as had been expected before the blockade by the Ottomans. Certainly if the bribes were big enough they could be induced to join the Entente in 1916, but a fair bit would have changed by then to make it look less appealing then in 1915.

Not sure why there would need to be CP gains in France ITTL in 1917 to get Italy to join the CPs, since their role would be cutting off Salonika, invading Tunisia and Corsica, and taking advantage of the lack of French troops on their own border. France was in mutiny by 1917, the Americans didn't really show up until 1918, and the Brits were overstretched even without the Mediterranean front. Sure the Brits would have more men to plow into the Western Front without the Ottomans in, but that would only start in 1916 and most of those would be Indian and really better suited to the African front (after the experience of 1915), which they could wrap up sooner...which really doesn't net them much more than having less expenses.
Indian Army during World War I - Wikipedia
The 1915 experience did not go well for the Indian army, so it is possible they don't get deployed to Europe again even if they are uncommitted elsewhere. Perhaps in Serbia to free up British divisions, but the same problems would still be there.

As to the French mutinies, I'm not so sure you're correct about foreigners not knowing. The CPs likely didn't, but there were a lot of Italians working in France before they joined the war and would do so even if neutral. They'd not doubt hear rumors and agents would report it. Not only that, but it was pretty clear France was nearly fully committed at the front by 1916. Attacking during summer 1916 would stretch the French beyond the breaking point.
 

Buba

A total creep
French mutinies were about refusal to be sent against uncut barbed wire. Not a refusal to fight per se.
Italian invasion of Tunis and Corsica? LOL! Sea Lion territory.
 

ATP

Well-known member
French mutinies were about refusal to be sent against uncut barbed wire. Not a refusal to fight per se.
Italian invasion of Tunis and Corsica? LOL! Sea Lion territory.

Italian navy during WW2 was good,so maybe in 1914 they could take Tunis? becouse i do not see anything valuable on Corsica.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
French mutinies were about refusal to be sent against uncut barbed wire. Not a refusal to fight per se.
Italian invasion of Tunis and Corsica? LOL! Sea Lion territory.
Refusal to attack and in some cases even to fight without negotiation efforts. Why do you think an invasion of Tunis or Corsica is insane in WW1? The French fleet was busy and without aircraft being what they became in WW2 the Italians would have the whip hand especially if they focused first on invading Nice and Savoy to overload French defenses.

Italian navy during WW2 was good,so maybe in 1914 they could take Tunis? becouse i do not see anything valuable on Corsica.
Corsica was more about national pride and naval bases as well as protecting Sardinia and the mainland by having an outpost there.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Refusal to attack and in some cases even to fight without negotiation efforts. Why do you think an invasion of Tunis or Corsica is insane in WW1? The French fleet was busy and without aircraft being what they became in WW2 the Italians would have the whip hand especially if they focused first on invading Nice and Savoy to overload French defenses.


Corsica was more about national pride and naval bases as well as protecting Sardinia and the mainland by having an outpost there.

Were the French willing to fight in 1918 without negotiation efforts because the German government initially rejected Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points (before accepting them near the very end of the war)?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Were the French willing to fight in 1918 without negotiation efforts because the German government initially rejected Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points (before accepting them near the very end of the war)?
AFAIK the thing that changed was the massive arrival of American soldiers and Petain's rehabilitation program that promised no more offensives until the US showed up in force.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
AFAIK the thing that changed was the massive arrival of American soldiers and Petain's rehabilitation program that promised no more offensives until the US showed up in force.

That makes perfect sense. Wait until the Americans arrive and only then go on the attack again. Too bad that US troops couldn't be sent to Russia in large numbers. Could have perhaps raised troop morale there as well if this was actually possible.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
That makes perfect sense. Wait until the Americans arrive and only then go on the attack again. Too bad that US troops couldn't be sent to Russia in large numbers. Could have perhaps raised troop morale there as well if this was actually possible.
Not really, the problems in Russia were more food and civilian related. That spilled over into the army, which soldiers were worried for their families.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Not really, the problems in Russia were more food and civilian related. That spilled over into the army, which soldiers were worried for their families.

Do you think that an extra couple of years of railroad construction would have solved these problems for Russia had WWI been delayed by a couple of years?
 

ATP

Well-known member
That makes perfect sense. Wait until the Americans arrive and only then go on the attack again. Too bad that US troops couldn't be sent to Russia in large numbers. Could have perhaps raised troop morale there as well if this was actually possible.

Indeed.If Kiereński do not made 1917 offensive,killed Trocky,or both,there would be no second revolution.
Even without american troops.

Not really, the problems in Russia were more food and civilian related. That spilled over into the army, which soldiers were worried for their families.

Worst.They had food - first revolution happened,becouse goverment stopped delivering it in Petersburg.They basically provoked revolution.Why? well,many people from elite supported Germany.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Worst.They had food - first revolution happened,becouse goverment stopped delivering it in Petersburg.They basically provoked revolution.Why? well,many people from elite supported Germany.
What? First I'm hearing that the Russian upper class supported Germany. The food crisis was caused by the break down in the rail system due to overuse and underinvestment and peasants hoarding grain because the government was forcing them to sell it for too little.

Do you think that an extra couple of years of railroad construction would have solved these problems for Russia had WWI been delayed by a couple of years?
It wasn't so much a problem of too few RRs (though that was at least somewhat of the issue) as lack of ability to keep up the RRs they had during the war. That was a problem for everyone though and for Russia due to having huge distances to travel over limited numbers of lines made the problem worse for them relative to other powers with greater redundancies and shorter distances to travel as well as better built up RRs. It was a complex and insurmountable problem in the East, one that reared its head again in WW2, but by then the Russians had greater industry and learned from the problem so had a bunch of rail brigades to fix the system. It also didn't hurt that they fought the war deep in their own country, which really cut down on the number of lines to be serviced and distances traveled, though that hurt them later on when advancing in 1943-45.
 

ATP

Well-known member
What? First I'm hearing that the Russian upper class supported Germany. The food crisis was caused by the break down in the rail system due to overuse and underinvestment and peasants hoarding grain because the government was forcing them to sell it for too little.


It wasn't so much a problem of too few RRs (though that was at least somewhat of the issue) as lack of ability to keep up the RRs they had during the war. That was a problem for everyone though and for Russia due to having huge distances to travel over limited numbers of lines made the problem worse for them relative to other powers with greater redundancies and shorter distances to travel as well as better built up RRs. It was a complex and insurmountable problem in the East, one that reared its head again in WW2, but by then the Russians had greater industry and learned from the problem so had a bunch of rail brigades to fix the system. It also didn't hurt that they fought the war deep in their own country, which really cut down on the number of lines to be serviced and distances traveled, though that hurt them later on when advancing in 1943-45.

part of russian elite was baltic germans.Of course,that part of them supported Kaiser.
And even russians did so - battle in Prussia in 1914 was lost becouse one general let germans destroy other army.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
part of russian elite was baltic germans.Of course,that part of them supported Kaiser.
And even russians did so - battle in Prussia in 1914 was lost becouse one general let germans destroy other army.

AFAIK, the Baltic Germans were initially pro-Russian but only became pro-German later on, such as in response to the threat of Bolshevism and of course once it became clear that Germany was going to win the war in the East. Historically, AFAIK, the Baltic Germans worked along rather well with the Russian Tsar.

And I don't think that either of the Russian generals in East Prussia in 1914 actually intended to commit treason. They simply didn't like each other and thus refused to cooperate and coordinate with one another, IIRC.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
part of russian elite was baltic germans.Of course,that part of them supported Kaiser.
And even russians did so - battle in Prussia in 1914 was lost becouse one general let germans destroy other army.
Ethnic Germans, but they were actively trying to be more Russian than the Russians due to all the anti-Germanism in the country during the war and to maintain their positions. Also they weren't in charge of the food deliveries to St. Petersberg AFAIK.
The Tannenberg defeat was supposedly about a personal quarrel two generals had due to an incident in the Russo-Japanese war, but that was disproven as a cause. The Russian 1st army was simply unable to do much in time to help and were themselves defeated shortly thereafter. The main person to blame was the army group commander, who did not manage the campaign well.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Ethnic Germans, but they were actively trying to be more Russian than the Russians due to all the anti-Germanism in the country during the war and to maintain their positions. Also they weren't in charge of the food deliveries to St. Petersberg AFAIK.
The Tannenberg defeat was supposedly about a personal quarrel two generals had due to an incident in the Russo-Japanese war, but that was disproven as a cause. The Russian 1st army was simply unable to do much in time to help and were themselves defeated shortly thereafter. The main person to blame was the army group commander, who did not manage the campaign well.

Commander of 1th Army in the same year let about 20 german dyvisions run from encircment near Kielce.
So,either he was genuine idiot,or german agent.
 

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