When Your Plow Is Too Smart To Fix

Laskar

Would you kindly?
Founder

So... I drove a CIH 8240 this summer. It was brand spanking new, with only a few hundred hours on the clock. The cabin felt like it was built for a Saudi prince, and the amount of control I had over the rest of the machine from the drivers' seat was amazing.

And the damned thing broke on the first day. Something went wrong, and wheat husks and chaff started pouring into the bulk tank. Which is where grain is supposed to be stored until you can unload into a bankout wagon. There was so much chaff, I couldn't see the grain through the hind window.

The problem was a simple wire harness that ran from the frame to a sensor on the lower sieve. The constant flexing had broken the wire, so the main computer couldn't tell how open the sieves were, so it opened them all the way.

OK. I originally wrote this piece for an agricultural Facebook group, but I think this may need some explaining. Combine harvesters process grain much the same was as Humanity has harvested wheat for thousands of years. The wheat is thrashed to separate the chaff and the grain from the straw, and then the chaff and the grain are thrown to the wind. The wind blows the chaff away, and the grain falls to the ground to be collected.

Harvester combines work in much the same way, except instead of wind, there is a gale-force draft generated by a fan spinning at just shy of a thousand RPM. The sieves are flat frames with vanes that can open or close to let more air through, and they shake back and forth to agitate the wheat as it passes through the machine. The straw just passes through, the chaff is blown out, and the grain falls into collector augers to be pumped up into the bulk tank. This works just fine unless the vanes open up so much that the chaff just falls straight through.

So, the Case International Harvester 8240 has sieves that can be adjusted from the cab, and sensors that tell you what position the sieves are in. This works perfectly until the wire to the sensor breaks. Not that we could tell that the wire was broken, even if we knew where to look. The insulation was fine. The wire was broken inside. It took an experienced service technician to find the fault and repair it.

The ability to adjust the sieves from the cab was handy, but not *that* handy. That machine was down for two or three days until we could get the problem fixed, and there had to be dozens more systems that could go wrong. And what happens in ten or twenty years when the touchscreen in the cab breaks?

Ultimately, I much prefer the 2388s. They may be twenty five years old, but you can keep them running even if the world goes Mad Max.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Almost every piece if large industrial equipment we buy shows up broken and needs extensive diagnostics and part replacement to work. Companies simply don’t care because this is cheaper for large semi-custom equipment than getting it right the first time.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Newer doesn't nessarly mean better and adding computers to everything isn't always a good idea.
As a Computer scientist, I can confirm.
Almost every piece if large industrial equipment we buy shows up broken and needs extensive diagnostics and part replacement to work. Companies simply don’t care because this is cheaper for large semi-custom equipment than getting it right the first time.
In other words, there never has been a better time to break into the market.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Almost every piece if large industrial equipment we buy shows up broken and needs extensive diagnostics and part replacement to work. Companies simply don’t care because this is cheaper for large semi-custom equipment than getting it right the first time.

And over the horizon, industrial-rated custom 3D printing is coming. With heavy footfalls like a T-rex.
Those companies should be scared.
 

Laskar

Would you kindly?
Founder
Almost every piece if large industrial equipment we buy shows up broken and needs extensive diagnostics and part replacement to work. Companies simply don’t care because this is cheaper for large semi-custom equipment than getting it right the first time.
That doesn't work for agriculture. Farmers talk, and they hold grudges. If your equipment can't perform right out of the box, you stand a solid chance of losing their business and their neighbor's business for decades. Large companies like Case IH and John Deere are getting away with this stuff because they're the biggest names, but if New Holland or Gleaner start building simple tractors and harvesters again, the big names are going to lose market share fast.

In other words, there never has been a better time to break into the market.
Yeah, what this guy said.

Its called Planned obsolescence. They want it so that it is indeed difficult to fix the machinery so that you will call on them for support and they will either have you buy a whole new machinery or pay huge amounts of money to get the machinery fixed like what Apple does.
And in the short term, that works. Most farmers have insurance to cover the losses when machinery breaks down and crops go unharvested. In the long term, however, they realize that a machine isn't sustainable, so they get rid of it and don't buy your services anymore.
 

Arlos

Sad Monarchist
That doesn't work for agriculture. Farmers talk, and they hold grudges. If your equipment can't perform right out of the box, you stand a solid chance of losing their business and their neighbor's business for decades. Large companies like Case IH and John Deere are getting away with this stuff because they're the biggest names, but if New Holland or Gleaner start building simple tractors and harvesters again, the big names are going to lose market share fast.
That sound like a solid business opportunity to me, if only I had the money to invest....*sigh*
 

ScratchedCam

New member
So, the Case International Harvester 8240 has sieves that can be adjusted from the cab, and sensors that tell you what position the sieves are in. This works perfectly until the wire to the sensor breaks. Not that we could tell that the wire was broken, even if we knew where to look. The insulation was fine. The wire was broken inside. It took an experienced service technician to find the fault and repair it.

There are a couple of multi-brand diagnostic tools out there. Texa makes one, but that is a couple grand for the dongle and tablet. If it's compatible, that would tell you what the fault was, but then you'd need the dealer service manual to see what to do. You can usually find those online if you look for them.

I really wish that the right to repair was enshrined somewhere. I don't care about your intellectual property I just want my injection pump to function.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
As I recal JD is very anal about third party implements, any repairs can be done only by their repair service, everything else is a breach of contract (not even warranty) and you are not allowed get spare parts on your own.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
As I recal JD is very anal about third party implements, any repairs can be done only by their repair service, everything else is a breach of contract (not even warranty) and you are not allowed get spare parts on your own.

funny story there was a lawsuit against apple and it turns out that well that sort of thing is super illegal and if it goes to court the precident will see you eviscerated.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
And then the corporate lawyers seek out more insidious ways to fuck over the customers. Droping the exploitative brands is the only way to force them to change their ways.
And I'm totally not shilling for Zetor.
 

Laskar

Would you kindly?
Founder
There are a couple of multi-brand diagnostic tools out there. Texa makes one, but that is a couple grand for the dongle and tablet. If it's compatible, that would tell you what the fault was, but then you'd need the dealer service manual to see what to do. You can usually find those online if you look for them.

I really wish that the right to repair was enshrined somewhere. I don't care about your intellectual property I just want my injection pump to function.
I like the idea of computerized control over engines and other functions because I've worked on the old shit. I used to drive a 300D Mercedes with a vacuum-actuated automatic transmission, and an injection pump timed by loosening the pump and rotating it a few degrees clockwise or counterclockwise. With modern diesel engines, you can reprogram the ECU to get more power, or whatever else you need. Or you could before the EPA fell upon diesel tuners like a bag of spiked dildos.

It would be nice to see agricultural companies adopt a standard OBD like the automobile manufacturers did with OBD and then OBD-II.

As I recal JD is very anal about third party implements, any repairs can be done only by their repair service, everything else is a breach of contract (not even warranty) and you are not allowed get spare parts on your own.
Yup. CIH can be the same way about their new equipment. The new tractors are designed to work with CIH implements, and there's been no attempt at standardization between manufacturers.
The service is a feature, or at least it ought to be. If a farmer is going to spend two hundred grand on a brand new tractor, it's a courtesy to provide repairs for the next five years. It's when the service becomes a restriction that it's a problem.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
It isn't so much planned obsolescence that is the reason for equipment instantly failing as it is that it's simply cheaper to let the equipment break and fix it than it is to do rigorous quality control and testing -- and companies are counting on you being unable to have another option which would let you not experience the externalization of their cost savings via extended downtime.
 

Tryglaw

Well-known member
It isn't so much planned obsolescence that is the reason for equipment instantly failing as it is that it's simply cheaper to let the equipment break and fix it than it is to do rigorous quality control and testing -- and companies are counting on you being unable to have another option which would let you not experience the externalization of their cost savings via extended downtime.

And then there is the case of John Deere declaring the software on their hardware intellectual property, which means tinkering with it is copyright violation. So you buy their tractors, but license the software they run on.

 
D

Deleted member

Guest
If only some Linux evangelist would read that article and run off and create free tractor control software anyone could boot their tractor from....
 

Tryglaw

Well-known member
If only some Linux evangelist would read that article and run off and create free tractor control software anyone could boot their tractor from....

I wonder if that would cause JD to call their product "bundled" or something, where removing the software likewise violates copyrights. Or just lock firmware out, so that deleting software requires bypassing / modification of copyrighted firmware "protections", thus IP violation.

What is really needed are no-nonsense companies like Zetor (or, for the sheer lulz of it, Belarus) setting up shop in US and selling "normal" hardware without bullshit limitations. But given vested corporate interests, current market leaders will throw every lobbyist (and their mothers too) at the issue to prevent it from ever happening.
 

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