Why Utopia Leads to Genocide

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist

Genocides had been part of human history since its beginnings. Israelites carried out genocide of native Caananites inspired by God’s promises of them as the chosen people. Romans destroyed Carthage as a revenge, and during the age of colonization Europeans carried out genocides in their quest for resources.

But particularly dangerous had been utopian ideologies. Ideologies that promised better future if only a certain group of people could be destroyed. To these people, genocide is a small price for an ideal society of peace and harmony.

Lenin and Stalin had their utopia of international socialism. It ended in genocide. Hitler had his utopia of national socialism. It ended in genocide. Progressives have their utopia of progressive socialism. Genocide is ongoing.

All socialist attempts to establish utopia always end up in genocide. Why?

There are several reasons.

First is basic nature of the attempt. In order to establish utopia, society has to be remade from the ground up. This requires forcing people to act not just according to the central dictate, but also against their very nature. The result is the necessity of usage of force to impose desired reforms. And if pushback is significant, this can easily go from “normal” terror to trying to wipe out and murder entire segments of the society. There can be no surprise that the largest genocide in history was a consequence of Mao’s “Great Leap Forward”, surpassing by far genocides done by Hitler and even Stalin.

Most utopian ideals, especially those of socialist nature, require harmony and thus ignorance of the harsh reality of human difference. Nazism ignored differences of class in favor of race, while Communism ignored any differences other than class.On the second anniversary of the Khmer Rouge victory, President Khieu Samphan depicted in bucolic terms a Democratic Kampuchea with freely flowing water, freshly flowering plants, and smiling people. Modern progressivism ignores differences of race, sex, culture and anything which makes humans anything more than serially produced soulless shells.

And to establish utopia, past has to be destroyed and rubble cleared out.

Second is psychology. Believers in utopia typically do not allow anything to stand in their way. They will establish their utopia, by any means necessary, because its establishment will resolve all problems and justify all evils done in its name.

And because utopia will solve all the problems, this means that there is no logical reason for anyone to oppose it. Thus anyone opposing socialism must be inherently evil, and thus can and must be destroyed. For this reason, socialists developed propensity for targeting groups seen as enemies of socialism. From 1918. until 1953., Soviets targeted for purges entire groups characterized as enemies of socialism. Between 1918. and early 1930s, targets were defined primarily in class terms, such as kulaks. But from 1930s until death of Stalin in 1953., the designated enemies were increasingly defined as members of particular ethnic and national groups, including Koreans, Chechens and Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Germans, Jews, and many others that were seen as somehow incompatible with or resistant to the siren call of socialism. Every single one was seen as carrying a nefarious trait within his body, a genetic or blood resistance to socialism. Only way to save Socialism was the purge of such groups. Nazi, of course, claimed that only the Aryans were “culture-producing” people, with everybody else being only worthwile as a slave or else dead.

Khmer regime in Democratic Kampuchea, like other socialist regimes, targeted the enemies of the revolution, urban dwellers, peasants who retained “individualistic” views, and, especially, ethnic and religious minorities. The enemies were microbes threatening the healthy body, rotten parts which had to be eliminated. In Yugoslavia, Serbs were seen as oppressed by the inferior peoples around them, especially Croats but also the Muslims and others. The solution was genocide, as at Ovčara and Srebrenica.

Third is organization. Much as explained in the first reason, establishing utopia requires fundamental reorganization of the society. And this reorganization has to be centrally managed, with ideologues responsible for basically everything.

This is why genocides became especially pronounced in 20th century. Growth in the power and capability of the state allowed it to affect society in profound and extensive ways. And utopian ideas in 20th century were linked to mass-based social movements that established revolutionary regimes with the aim of utilizing state as the agent of social transformation. It is no accident that most prevalent perpetrators of genocides in the 20th century were revolutionary socialist regimes – Nazi Germany, Communist USSR and China, and Khmer Rouge Cambodia. All of them had identified one or more groups which had to be exterminated because they stood in the way of utopia. Racial socialisms such as Nazism were the most open about who the “enemy” that needed to be exterminated was, as the definition was carried out in ethnic terms – Jews, Slavs etc. Class socialisms such as Communism however were potentially far more dangerous, as the definition of the “enemy” could always be expanded as the ruling class saw fit. Literally any individual or group could at any time be declared an “enemy of the people” and slated for extermination.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
The ancient world did not commit genocide as we know it. Oh they fought absolutely savage wars and put down rebellions with brutal glee, but it wasn’t to the purpose of a people’s utter destruction. Carthage was utterly smashed to the point it could not rise again out of semi-justified and genuine paranoia on the part of Rome, but I believe Punic blood and Punic ways still lived on.

Note however, as a deeply religious and spiritual people who believed in Elysium, the Romans knew they could not find paradise in this earthly life. That precluded them from trying to establish utopia, which is just one of the reasons the Imperium Romanum did far more for humanity than the Third Reich or Soviet Union ever did.

If you presented the horrors of the 20th century to any ancient culture, they’d be baffled/quite disturbed. Genghis Khan would probably ask what on earth was the point of frog marching a million Jewish children into gas chambers.

In a really weird way, religion provided a strange cultural protection against Utopianism, and to a lesser extent totalitarianism.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
I'd say its less utopianism that's the problem, more ideological puritanism. IE, the idea that everyone should follow the same belief system.

True, but this puritanism is made especially bad, and perhaps outright caused, by utopianism - it is easy to convince yourself that everyone opposing you is evil when you believe your ideology is the only one that is right and perhaps even only one that may save the world.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
True, but this puritanism is made especially bad, and perhaps outright caused, by utopianism - it is easy to convince yourself that everyone opposing you is evil when you believe your ideology is the only one that is right and perhaps even only one that may save the world.

If the austrian government had rounded up lenin and all of his friends and hanged them millions upon million of lives would have been saved.
 

ATP

Well-known member
If the austrian government had rounded up lenin and all of his friends and hanged them millions upon million of lives would have been saved.
If i remember correctly,in one period Lenin,Freud and Hitler lived in Vienna.Imagine hanging them all!

Back to topic - yes,utopia mean genocide,unless you try it in monastery.Only there it is safe.
And,jews do not killed caananities,only bragged about it.Thanks to DNA we knew,that the same population lived in Palestine since bronze age till 1948,only changing religions.
Mongols - they genocided Tangut state in China,killing everybody.And one hungarian tribe near Don,too.But - usually they do not genocide nations.

Moscov - Ivan terrible covard genocided Novogrod the Great in 1579,but he was moscovite,and they were remnants of russians,so they must die.

Colonies - protestants genocided indian tribes in North america,but catholics powers do not did so.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
In a really weird way, religion provided a strange cultural protection against Utopianism, and to a lesser extent totalitarianism.
Until the Catholic Church shat the bed for like two centuries straight in letting corruption run rampant after all their pains to make the religious authority contingent on the worldly institutions, as well as the assorted shenanigans of Islamic theocracy that got up to the same shit pretty much from day one.

"Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own" came from the Catholic Church declaring a war of extermination on the Cathar Heresy. The express purpose of Albigensian Crusade was the total removal of dissidents from "official" Christendom, who "happened" to also have a lot of friction with the French Crown. Not exactly an Enlightenment shit-stirring result given it was early 13th century.

A very important difference between the Christian notion of heaven and the preceding Pagan paradise afterlives is that it very much relies on a "One True Way", where the Pagan equivalent is much blunter "fairness" of good people getting good endings. Which led to the wholesale fabrication of Limbo and Virtuous Pagans, because being told that your mother who died in childbirth is guaranteed oblivion or eternal torment for absolutely no reason but happening to die before the pastor showed up is a bit of a problem to getting the overall doctrine accepted.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Until the Catholic Church shat the bed for like two centuries straight in letting corruption run rampant after all their pains to make the religious authority contingent on the worldly institutions, as well as the assorted shenanigans of Islamic theocracy that got up to the same shit pretty much from day one.

"Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own" came from the Catholic Church declaring a war of extermination on the Cathar Heresy. The express purpose of Albigensian Crusade was the total removal of dissidents from "official" Christendom, who "happened" to also have a lot of friction with the French Crown. Not exactly an Enlightenment shit-stirring result given it was early 13th century.

A very important difference between the Christian notion of heaven and the preceding Pagan paradise afterlives is that it very much relies on a "One True Way", where the Pagan equivalent is much blunter "fairness" of good people getting good endings. Which led to the wholesale fabrication of Limbo and Virtuous Pagans, because being told that your mother who died in childbirth is guaranteed oblivion or eternal torment for absolutely no reason but happening to die before the pastor showed up is a bit of a problem to getting the overall doctrine accepted.
1.You think,that pagan priest was not corrupted?
2.It is bullshit.City was destroyed by mob which acted without orders,and take city when some idiots there opened gate and send townspeople to fight.
Commanders do not knew what is going on till city was captured,so they could not order anything.And the same mob burned city,when knights try to made order,almost burning them,too.

Wool heresy /cathars/ was one of utopias,which enlinghtened of their times try to create - with society made in two castes -
perfect,who must be pure,but could lend moneys on 100% per year,and rest,who could fuck everything what they wanted ,but must work making wool 365 days per year.

In the same time,catholics workers had 120 days in year free.

So,kind of our time leftist - pure caste ruling over mob who had nothing,but could fuck whoever they like.

And,they were supported by King of England,who owned part of France,one spanish king,and HRE emperor for political reasons.

Church was supported only by King of France.It Kind of miracle,that we win and destryed its time version of leftist utopia.

3.pagan afterlife was bad thing,read Odyssey and see how it look like.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
You think,that pagan priest was not corrupted?
Not in the sense of shaking down half of Europe for money like the Papacy went to. Lot of shit the Catholic Church got up to there's simply not been the scale for from other singular religious institutions.

City was destroyed by mob which acted without orders
When you're directly criticizing Protestants for getting up to similar bullshit that comes back to the exact same ideological features, it still holds true, because the same "You Are Wrong, So Fuck You With A Cactus" mentality kicked in. It is a very limited difference of degree, because the mob who gave that line very much reflects what the Church taught people in practice.

So,kind of our time leftist - pure caste ruling over mob who had nothing,but could fuck whoever they like.
The exact qualities of the Cathars are of limited relevance when the Pope officially declared a war for the sole purpose of their extermination. The internal complaints about the incident had nothing to do with the slaughter of Cathars and everything to do with not being able to check for devout Catholics.

pagan afterlife was bad thing,read Odyssey and see how it look like
Firstly, the Greek afterlife had Elysium, it was not all shit. Secondly, the Norse had Valhalla, again not being all shit. There's plentiful heavens in Eastern mythology, as well. Abrahamic religions do not have anything resembling a monopoly on promising paradise for good people, their monopoly is on being obnoxious assholes in pushing that the sole way to get it is to bend over and take all their doctrine up the rear.

Christianity is inseparably utopian, with the exact same demand for unity of opinion. It's just one very specific step of declaring the utopia otherworldly keeping it vaguely in line, which is no serious constraint as very well demonstrated by the Wahabis of Islam.
 
Ok I'm going to sound artsy fartsy here so bear with me

Violence and murder is at the very core of Mother Nature's soul "the weak Perish from the other and serve as the food and nest for the betters and thier brood." A good mother? Please she is the daughter of Sin fertilized by Adam and Eve partaking of the forbidden fruit. Every evil seen in the world can be placed at her feet as much as anything. Watch as the lions tear at each other for dominance. Watch as the Spider eats her own husband watch as the ape mother kills the baby of her rival.

When man does these things to themselves it is called Sin is it not? If the very heart of Nature is Sin how can we trust her to be a moral guardian of righteous?"

This is why utopianism fails because evil and discord IS natures way the only way to avoid that is to seek to isolate yourself from it which defeats the purpose of a perfect world order in the first place.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Not in the sense of shaking down half of Europe for money like the Papacy went to. Lot of shit the Catholic Church got up to there's simply not been the scale for from other singular religious institutions.


When you're directly criticizing Protestants for getting up to similar bullshit that comes back to the exact same ideological features, it still holds true, because the same "You Are Wrong, So Fuck You With A Cactus" mentality kicked in. It is a very limited difference of degree, because the mob who gave that line very much reflects what the Church taught people in practice.


The exact qualities of the Cathars are of limited relevance when the Pope officially declared a war for the sole purpose of their extermination. The internal complaints about the incident had nothing to do with the slaughter of Cathars and everything to do with not being able to check for devout Catholics.


Firstly, the Greek afterlife had Elysium, it was not all shit. Secondly, the Norse had Valhalla, again not being all shit. There's plentiful heavens in Eastern mythology, as well. Abrahamic religions do not have anything resembling a monopoly on promising paradise for good people, their monopoly is on being obnoxious assholes in pushing that the sole way to get it is to bend over and take all their doctrine up the rear.

Christianity is inseparably utopian, with the exact same demand for unity of opinion. It's just one very specific step of declaring the utopia otherworldly keeping it vaguely in line, which is no serious constraint as very well demonstrated by the Wahabis of Islam.
1.Catholic church,except being sometimes corrupted,CREATED EUROPE - becouse without catholic mix of roman law,greek philosophy ,and christian morality,Europe is nothing more then unimportant part of Asia.
There would be no Western cyvilization without catholics.

2.If protestants acted without order,you would be right.But here,catholics commanders do not even knew that city was taken till mob did so.
So no,they are not responsible for what happened there.
And,more important,quote "kill all" is fake.

3.Cathars were not only wool heresy,made to turn free people into slaves in proto-factories for promise of being capable of fuck everything,but also dead cult,who teached that Earth is bad place created by bad god,and perfect should commit suicide to leave it.
If they were not taken down,we would live in communism from 14 century.
Killing innocents is sin,but - if i could prevent Lenin,Sralin,Hitler,Mao etc from taking power,i would have no problems with doing so.

4.Nope,protestants could go that road,like anababtists.Catholics NEVER tried to made paradise on Earth,hence we try communism only in some abbeys.Where it sometimes worked,becouse all people there was volunteer.
And Elysium was added later,when greek start loosing their faith.When they still belived,it was grim place.

Heck, that's about what someone with weekends and holidays off plus two weeks of vacation gets today. Back then it was 6 days in 7 with a lot of holy days and festivals.

Indeed.That is why cathars were supported by England and HRE - they made wool cheaper,becouse workers do not have holidays.
Wool heresy - and death cult,too.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
There would be no Western cyvilization without catholics.
The Catholics were an extreme late-comer to Rome and developed around already long-standing trends of syncretism and unitary thinking. Also the Orthodox and Ethiopian churches exist, the idea of a unified Church is mostly post-Roman as a very blunt substitute for the end of central authority in the Western half.

Very few of the "bones" of western civilization that you desperately pretend are Catholic actually come from The Catholic Church. They're mostly from the days of the schismatic clusterfuck of original-flavor Gnostics, monophysites, the argument over the Eucharist being bread, wine, or both, what baptism did spiritually, and many more doctrinal disagreements.

So no,they are not responsible for what happened there.
Where did the mob's mentality of eradicating heresy come from? And who is it that bluntly told the people in charge their reward was the property of the Cathars?

If they were not taken down,we would live in communism from 14 century.
The Pope's order was the eradication of individual Cathars as they refused to desist. The equivalent is ordering the execution of EVERY member of the Nazi party, without exception, or EVERY participant in China's Cultural Revolution. Every step of the way, the motive was eradication of Catharism to re-establish the Catholic monopoly on Christendom in the region.

Catholics NEVER tried to made paradise on Earth
They constantly say the only way to have paradise in death is to be a Catholic. The line was coined by contemporaries of the incident and widely understood to be merely describing the prevailing attitude responsible, an attitude informed primarily by the Catholic Church's doctrine.

All the paradise being an afterlife does is make it somewhat more mild, the exact same efforts at annihilation of dissent played out every single time the Catholic Church's authority was challenged. When the hold was finally broken, the continued insistence led to centuries of bloodbaths over attempting to enforce "One True Way".

And Elysium was added later,when greek start loosing their faith.When they still belived,it was grim place.
It was already well-accepted belief in the Classical period, showing up in the Homeric epics. Furthermore, there is no "losing their faith" because there wasn't even the idea of having a faith in the first place! These pagan "faiths" were simply their understanding of natural law and metaphysics, with the Norse literally not having words to describe such a difference. There was no separation like Christianity got stuck with from the burning need to be precisely correct about Christ in perpetuity.

My overall point is that Catholicism's internal function has numerous important similarities Utopian ideologies, being the "source material" for the track record of forcing ideals from the barrel of a gun. 20th century genocidal utopians are just a secular repeat of the bloodbaths of the Protestant Reformation with more capable means of slaughter.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The Catholics were an extreme late-comer to Rome and developed around already long-standing trends of syncretism and unitary thinking. Also the Orthodox and Ethiopian churches exist, the idea of a unified Church is mostly post-Roman as a very blunt substitute for the end of central authority in the Western half.

Very few of the "bones" of western civilization that you desperately pretend are Catholic actually come from The Catholic Church. They're mostly from the days of the schismatic clusterfuck of original-flavor Gnostics, monophysites, the argument over the Eucharist being bread, wine, or both, what baptism did spiritually, and many more doctrinal disagreements.


Where did the mob's mentality of eradicating heresy come from? And who is it that bluntly told the people in charge their reward was the property of the Cathars?


The Pope's order was the eradication of individual Cathars as they refused to desist. The equivalent is ordering the execution of EVERY member of the Nazi party, without exception, or EVERY participant in China's Cultural Revolution. Every step of the way, the motive was eradication of Catharism to re-establish the Catholic monopoly on Christendom in the region.


They constantly say the only way to have paradise in death is to be a Catholic. The line was coined by contemporaries of the incident and widely understood to be merely describing the prevailing attitude responsible, an attitude informed primarily by the Catholic Church's doctrine.

All the paradise being an afterlife does is make it somewhat more mild, the exact same efforts at annihilation of dissent played out every single time the Catholic Church's authority was challenged. When the hold was finally broken, the continued insistence led to centuries of bloodbaths over attempting to enforce "One True Way".


It was already well-accepted belief in the Classical period, showing up in the Homeric epics. Furthermore, there is no "losing their faith" because there wasn't even the idea of having a faith in the first place! These pagan "faiths" were simply their understanding of natural law and metaphysics, with the Norse literally not having words to describe such a difference. There was no separation like Christianity got stuck with from the burning need to be precisely correct about Christ in perpetuity.

My overall point is that Catholicism's internal function has numerous important similarities Utopian ideologies, being the "source material" for the track record of forcing ideals from the barrel of a gun. 20th century genocidal utopians are just a secular repeat of the bloodbaths of the Protestant Reformation with more capable means of slaughter.
1.Ethiopian church do not created any cyvilization,Orthodox church helped create byzantine cyvilization,and our Western cyvilization was created by catholic church.
That is why West is dying now - becouse catholic Church is dying,too.
Of course,church would survive,but Europe could not - and again become unimportant Adia penisula.

2.They were mob of brigands,they do not cared about faith,but looting.And,in those times city which do not surrender was akways looted and burned - old ancient tradition,Church had nothing to do with it.

3.Nope,only those who do not come back to their Faith.Mainly upper castes died,those who hated world and wanted to die anyway.Their serfs becomed wool workers again - and worked with 120 days free per year,not entire time.

Besides,if i could avoid soviet revolution by killing all soviet party members in 1917,i would gladly did so.
Better kill relatively few degenerates,then 20% of population.

4.Still,never tried to create utopia on Earth,except some monasteries,where it even worked sometimes.
And, compare "horrid" Inquisition to commies.
About 10.000 victims in 600 years.Comrade sralin killed more in average week.

5A - Ancient Greeks belived in existence of their gods.Remember,how they try to welcome Saint Paul as Zeus after he made miracle?
And later they start asking themselves why their fake gods behaved like teenagers - and that is how their world perished.

5B - You answered yourself.Protestant Deformation - it was first Revolution which made religion part of state.Of course,it must end in bloodbath.
 

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