WI: Christian Japan

[Scottty]

1.Then,they are not Christians at all,becouse Jesus is God,and everybody could see HIM.Somebody plaing in iconoclazm is not Christian,but jew,becouse only in judaism people could not see God,or they die.
And protestants were jews eating pigs.Except being tool of their state.

Dude, seriously, knock it off. Protestants are not Jews, and nobody seriously thinks we are.
If you think the most important difference between your religion and Judaism is that you worship stone images and they don't... (shakes head)

In the civilized world, we had something called the Thirty Years War. Except in Ireland, where it went on for 300 years.
But we gradually all came to understand that while our religious differences are important, fighting each other over them achieves nothing constructive and we should all (Protestant and Roman Catholic alike) try to be more chill about it.

Then someone from Poland shows up...

 

[Buba]

Then someone from Poland shows up...

[friendly wave]

 

[bintananth]

Then someone from Poland shows up...

My brother-in-law Kaylee is part Polish. You wouldn't know that his little Melfina (my niece) has any non-asian ancestry without hìm saying so.

 

[ATP]

I know. what I'm saying is I'm not sure what the ripples in the long term would be. I'm sure it'd start out fine until the world wars. After that I'm not sure. Would they still be based or would they be as woke as the rest of the world is right now? I truly don't know.

It would be different world wars,becouse Japan would get part of Nort America and maybe Australia here.No powerpuff USA here.

With a POD 300+ years back, I think the chances of anything resembling our world wars (or even ideologies) still happening is virtually nil. Not to say a world war or two in the early 20th century would be totally impossible, but the butterfly effect could very well ensure that it's a world war between a globe-spanning Habsburg giga-empire (with the Christian Japan as one of its allies) on one hand and a coalition of a Dzunghar-founded Neo-Yuan China & a Maratha-united India on the other (or something equally out there), while Nazism & Communism don't even exist due to the ancestors of Hitler, Marx and Jean-Jacques Rousseau eating cannonballs in a random 17th-century battle during the alt-timeline's Thirty Years' War equivalent.

Since Japan would be catholic here,England would be weaker,and there would be no USA.But,instead of two big powers,we could have many medium superpowers here instead.
WW wars still could happen,but catholic Japan could fight catholic Spain here.

P.S @Scottty ,it is not me,but some german poet,Heine i think,who said that puritanism is jews eating pigs.
And iconoclasm is proof of that - christians knew,that God arleady showed himself/Jesus/ ,jews still think that everybody who saw God must die.

Both Heine and iconoclast are not from Poland.

 

[bintananth]

...

 

[Scottty]

P.S @Scottty ,it is not me,but some german poet,Heine i think,who said that puritanism is jews eating pigs.
And iconoclasm is proof of that - christians knew,that God arleady showed himself/Jesus/ ,jews still think that everybody who saw God must die.

Both Heine and iconoclast are not from Poland.

The New Testament also prohibits the worship of images.
And Puritans are just one branch of Protestantism - they were Calvinist Anglicans, more or less.

But we are getting off-topic here. The point is - can't you keep your anti-Protestant sentiments under control when they are not relevant to the topic?

 

[ATP]

The New Testament also prohibits the worship of images.
And Puritans are just one branch of Protestantism - they were Calvinist Anglicans, more or less.

But we are getting off-topic here. The point is - can't you keep your anti-Protestant sentiments under control when they are not relevant to the topic?

You started talking about protestants.I only stated fact,that Christians do not burn images of God,becouse Jesus,except being God,could be saw by everybody.
I was taking about iconoclazm.

And,tread is about Christian Japan - so,i explained why they could not become protestants,too.

 

[Scottty]

You started talking about protestants.I only stated fact,that Christians do not burn images of God,becouse Jesus,except being God,could be saw by everybody.
I was taking about iconoclazm.

Which nobody but you thought relevant to mention. The other poster claimed that Dutch traders would have no problem treading on a cross, not that they would be destroying images.
And I don't know if the Japanese really required European visitors to do any of those things.

 

[Buba]

@Scottty I think it was ATP himself who brought up the Cross stomping ... to which I replied by bringing up iconclasm as pointer to not all variants of Christianity venerating the Cross in equal degree.
As to Japanese forcing Euros to do it - it was in a novel about c. 1600 Japan featuring an Englishman shipwright - who later become a hatamoto (Big Boss sidekick) with hawt! waifu - the book later being made into a TV mini series with an attractive male lead, so it must be true.

 

[ATP]

Which nobody but you thought relevant to mention. The other poster claimed that Dutch traders would have no problem treading on a cross, not that they would be destroying images.
And I don't know if the Japanese really required European visitors to do any of those things.

Dutch who made bussines there - yes.
And,i mention now again,that every protestant ruler was mini-super pope who decided what is Truth,and pastors were not priests,but teachers working for their state and loyal to their ruler.

Thus,nobody could take such missionaries,becouse they were simple enemy agents.

French or Spanish priests could be the same or not,so it was always risk.

But Jesuits was loyal only to pope,who had small army and fleet unable to invade anything.That is why they would be safe choice for Japan to convert.Especially,if they made special japaneese rite.

You are mistaking current 100.000 protestant sect with reality of 17th century,when they were part of state and notching more.
And current woke jesuits with Warriors of God which they were then.

 

[S'task]

. . .

Oh for...

Firstly, no, the treading upon an image of Christ by the Tokugawa is a well recorded historical fact. It did not originate with the novel Shogun, though that and the excellent miniseries based on the novel likely brought it more into public consciousness.

Secondly, the image used was not of a Cross, but of a Crucifix or of the Virgin Mary. Both symbols which are and were much more specific to Catholicism that Protestants had ceased to use, which was why Protestants had less issue doing the performative ceremony because to them those were symbols of the Papacy, not Christianity or their faith.

Finally, a lot of you have not read Silence and really should before continuing this entire train of discussion.

 

[Scottty]

@Scottty I think it was ATP himself who brought up the Cross stomping ... to which I replied by bringing up iconclasm as pointer to not all variants of Christianity venerating the Cross in equal degree.
As to Japanese forcing Euros to do it - it was in a novel about c. 1600 Japan featuring an Englishman shipwright - who later become a hatamoto (Big Boss sidekick) with hawt! waifu - the book later being made into a TV mini series with an attractive male lead, so it must be true.

Oh hey, I remember that TV show. It was on here in South Africa in the 1980's.
Someone in the papers mentioned how after the family had seen a few episodes, every time he told his daughter to do anything she would respond with "hai, Taranaga!"

 

[Buba]

@Scottty amusingly, at that very same time, Zulu Tchaka was aired in Poland, hence more than one teen ordered to do chores responded with BAYETE!

 

[ATP]

. . .

Oh for...

Firstly, no, the treading upon an image of Christ by the Tokugawa is a well recorded historical fact. It did not originate with the novel Shogun, though that and the excellent miniseries based on the novel likely brought it more into public consciousness.

Secondly, the image used was not of a Cross, but of a Crucifix or of the Virgin Mary. Both symbols which are and were much more specific to Catholicism that Protestants had ceased to use, which was why Protestants had less issue doing the performative ceremony because to them those were symbols of the Papacy, not Christianity or their faith.

Finally, a lot of you have not read Silence and really should before continuing this entire train of discussion.

Protestants which do not treated Crucifixas as real Cross was no more Christians.Catholics would never tread upon crosses made by Orhodox or heretics.
And Stomping on Virgin Mary - even if they do not pray to HER,they still should think about how HER SON would react to that.

Oh hey, I remember that TV show. It was on here in South Africa in the 1980's.
Someone in the papers mentioned how after the family had seen a few episodes, every time he told his daughter to do anything she would respond with "hai, Taranaga!"

It was Hai,Toranaga-sama in my and my friend case.

@Scottty amusingly, at that very same time, Zulu Tchaka was aired in Poland, hence more than one teen ordered to do chores responded with BAYETE!

Never tried that,but seems legit to me.

Back to topis - Japan becoming Christian about 1600AD could choose only between protestants and catholics,becouse orthodox do not had ships there.

catholics powers/Spain,France? was risk,becouse priests could be loyal to their Kings.
Protestant powers sucked even more,becouse pastors was simply their rulers agents.

Only choice - jesuits,becouse they were loyal to pope who do not have army to invade,or Portugal,becouse they do not had army to invade,too.

I do not say which religion is Right here,only which do not risk enemy invasion.

 

[bintananth]

I was thinking about this what if ...

A Christianized Japan c.1600 isn't as impossible as one might think.

In 1543 some Portugese explorers on a Chinese junk said said "hi" to Tanegashima Tokitaka. They had guns and bibles. Tokitaka bought the guns and told his swordsmith to replicate them.

In 1582 three Christianized Daimyos sent some Samurai on a mission to Europe to go meet the Pope: The Tensho Embassy

In 1613 a different Daimyo did it again: The Keicho Embassy. The guy who designed and built the European-style ship they used to cross the Pacific was ... an Englishman named William Adams who wasn't allowed to leave Japan.

 

[Circle of Willis]

I was thinking about this what if ...

A Christianized Japan c.1600 isn't as impossible as one might think.

In 1543 some Portugese explorers on a Chinese junk said said "hi" to Tanegashima Tokitaka. They had guns and bibles. Tokitaka bought the guns and told his swordsmith to replicate them.

In 1582 three Christianized Daimyos sent some Samurai on a mission to Europe to go meet the Pope: The Tensho Embassy

In 1613 a different Daimyo did it again: The Keicho Embassy. The guy who designed and built the European-style ship they used to cross the Pacific was ... an Englishman named William Adams who wasn't allowed to leave Japan.

That's what was discussed in the first couple posts on this thread yes. Consensus seems to be that having Oda Nobunaga & his oldest son Nobutada survive Akechi Mitsuhide's betrayal, then go on to unite Japan and reinforce their already-existing positive relationship with the Christians, would make for the easiest way to Christianize Japan. Nobunaga was far more progressive & Christian-friendly (while also being extremely hostile to traditionalist Buddhists) than Hideyoshi or especially Ieyasu, with his son Nobutada the apple didn't seem to have fallen far from the tree, and his grandson (Nobutada's own eldest son) Hidenobu was evidently already a Catholic convert IRL.

An alternative would be having the Otomo clan of northern Kyushu (the most powerful of the historical Catholic daimyo, their patriarch Otomo Sorin was the guy who sent the Tensho Embassy) defeat their Shimazu rivals to take over all of Kyushu and then use that island as a base from which to unite Japan, but that's a much harder & longer road since their position was pretty bad compared to Oda's. It's just way easier and more convenient to have Nobunaga unite Japan as he almost did historically instead, literally all the Japanese Catholics would have to do under an Oda Shogunate is wait for nature & primogeniture to take its course (and fend off the inevitable traditionalist challengers to Nobutada/Hidenobu in the meantime of course).

 

[bintananth]

That's what was discussed in the first couple posts on this thread yes. Consensus seems to be that having Oda Nobunaga & his oldest son Nobutada survive Akechi Mitsuhide's betrayal, then go on to unite Japan and reinforce their already-existing positive relationship with the Christians, would make for the easiest way to Christianize Japan. Nobunaga was far more progressive & Christian-friendly (while also being extremely hostile to traditionalist Buddhists) than Hideyoshi or especially Ieyasu, with his son Nobutada the apple didn't seem to have fallen far from the tree, and his grandson (Nobutada's own eldest son) Hidenobu was evidently already a Catholic convert IRL.

An alternative would be having the Otomo clan of northern Kyushu (the most powerful of the historical Catholic daimyo, their patriarch Otomo Sorin was the guy who sent the Tensho Embassy) defeat their Shimazu rivals to take over all of Kyushu and then use that island as a base from which to unite Japan, but that's a much harder & longer road since their position was pretty bad compared to Oda's. It's just way easier and more convenient to have Nobunaga unite Japan as he almost did historically instead, literally all the Japanese Catholics would have to do under an Oda Shogunate is wait for nature & primogeniture to take its course (and fend off the inevitable traditionalist challengers to Nobutada/Hidenobu in the meantime of course).

Shinto is also compatable with Christianity in ways that Buddhism is not. The Japanese aristocrats who did convert back then were basically saying "I like this message".

Think about that for a bit. An aristocrat with peasant retainers has to keep their peasants somewhat happy because if they didn't they'd be killed. The Christian message of treat everyone as your equal and respect them made things easier because, IIRC, Shinto says that everything has a spirit which must be respected.

 

[ATP]

That's what was discussed in the first couple posts on this thread yes. Consensus seems to be that having Oda Nobunaga & his oldest son Nobutada survive Akechi Mitsuhide's betrayal, then go on to unite Japan and reinforce their already-existing positive relationship with the Christians, would make for the easiest way to Christianize Japan. Nobunaga was far more progressive & Christian-friendly (while also being extremely hostile to traditionalist Buddhists) than Hideyoshi or especially Ieyasu, with his son Nobutada the apple didn't seem to have fallen far from the tree, and his grandson (Nobutada's own eldest son) Hidenobu was evidently already a Catholic convert IRL.

An alternative would be having the Otomo clan of northern Kyushu (the most powerful of the historical Catholic daimyo, their patriarch Otomo Sorin was the guy who sent the Tensho Embassy) defeat their Shimazu rivals to take over all of Kyushu and then use that island as a base from which to unite Japan, but that's a much harder & longer road since their position was pretty bad compared to Oda's. It's just way easier and more convenient to have Nobunaga unite Japan as he almost did historically instead, literally all the Japanese Catholics would have to do under an Oda Shogunate is wait for nature & primogeniture to take its course (and fend off the inevitable traditionalist challengers to Nobutada/Hidenobu in the meantime of course).

All good possibilities.
About nestorian Japan earlier -
1.Hitsuji Tayuu who come from Persia in 8th century to help mass produce copper could be nestorian
Hata clan who come to Japan in 5th century could be some kind of christians,too

Here,interesting manga about Japan past and mysteries -chapter about possible christians there.
Here -

Munakata Kyouju Ikouroku Vol.1 Chapter 3 : A Merry Tempyo Christmas - Manganelo

Read Munakata Kyouju Ikouroku Vol.1 Chapter 3 : A Merry Tempyo Christmas - From all around the world come many legends and beliefs; professor Munakata, an authority on the study of folklore, reveals the invisible historical facts hidden behind the my

readmanganato.com

Other chapters,about other periods,are interesting,too.

 

[Scottty]

One huge butterfly if Japan gets a Christian-friendly government in that era - or even merely one less overtly unfriendly than the Tokugawa one - is that they would not close off their country to the outside world the way it happened IRL.
No long sleep of isolation until the Americans came to say hello.

 

[Circle of Willis]

One huge butterfly if Japan gets a Christian-friendly government in that era - or even merely one less overtly unfriendly than the Tokugawa one - is that they would not close off their country to the outside world the way it happened IRL.
No long sleep of isolation until the Americans came to say hello.

Oh, I don't think we'll have to wait until the Americans show up. An outward-facing, Christian-friendly and eventually actually Christian Japan under an Oda Shogunate (being that they're the most likely route to achieve this outcome) might be able to enlist the aid of Spain's galleons in conquering Korea, and then exploit the decline of the Ming to make a grab for China. They'd have to contend with the Manchus and rebellious Chinese dynasties like the Shun though, of course, and this would presumably be the Japanese indulging in a big spot of geopolitical opportunism rather than actually planning to use China as a springboard from which to conquer India as Toyotomi Hideyoshi did - the Oda are an aristocratic clan of Taira descent and thus have less to prove than the peasant-born Toyotomi did.

I'm not sure how feasible it would be for them to actually take the place of the Manchus/Qing (that is, being the foreign conquerors of mid-to-late 17th century China) but if they could pull it off, or even just split China with the landlocked west of that country remaining under the rule of an ethnic Han dynasty, I do believe they will have released Mothra-sized butterflies over the future course of the entirety of East Asia.