WI: Christian Japan

[Buba]

I don't think we'll have to wait until the Americans show up.

Isn't that exactly what @Scottty said ... ?

 

[Circle of Willis]

Isn't that s exactly what @Scottty said ... ?

Yeah, I was basically trying to say I was in agreement with his notion. Maybe it didn't come across too well on account of the wording, in my defense I typed that post up near midnight where I live and while pestered by a headache though.

 

[ATP]

One huge butterfly if Japan gets a Christian-friendly government in that era - or even merely one less overtly unfriendly than the Tokugawa one - is that they would not close off their country to the outside world the way it happened IRL.
No long sleep of isolation until the Americans came to say hello.

Indeed Korea,part of China,North America/they have kuro-sivo/,maybe even Australia.
And,since catholics Kings still fought each other,why not take Philippines when their power started to decline?

 

[Scottty]

Indeed Korea,part of China,North America/they have kuro-sivo/,maybe even Australia.
And,since catholics Kings still fought each other,why not take Philippines when their power started to decline?

Not being isolationist does not have to mean going militarily expansionist.

 

[ATP]

Not being isolationist does not have to mean going militarily expansionist.

True.They could not attack China or even Korea,but taking North America was rather easy and cost - effective.The same goes for Australia.

 

[Circle of Willis]

Not being isolationist does not have to mean going militarily expansionist.

I do think some attempt(s) at outward military expansion was very likely, or even inevitable, in the immediate aftermath of the Sengoku Period. No matter who's on top, there'd still be craploads of samurai and ashigaru (peasant soldiers) alike running around who have known basically nothing but constant warfare all their lives - probably a better idea to redirect their energy & martial experience against Korea, China, et al. rather than leave them to fester and potentially destabilize the homeland because they didn't get the exact fief they wanted for a reward, their lord mistreats them, or whatever other reason crops up to encourage rebellion. This, even more than acquiring legitimacy for his regency/chancellorship, was a factor as to why Hideyoshi attacked Korea historically after all.

In regards to a Christian-friendly regime like that of an early hypothetical Oda Shogunate as has been discussed in this thread, they'd have even more reason to send troublemakers of a zealously anti-Christian disposition to hopefully die on foreign battlefields. IIRC Nobunaga himself expressed some interest in going after China (Hideyoshi himself may have first gotten the idea from his late boss historically), although if he ran into stiff resistance I think he'd give up on the idea more quickly than Hideyoshi - he has less need to legitimize his regime by way of military victories abroad since he's not a literal peasant. (In any case, if they're so inclined Japan needs only wait a few decades to get a good shot at invading China, since the Ming were already starting to decline fast around ~1600)

On a somewhat related note I think the fate of the samurai as a whole would go in a rather different direction with Japan itself remaining open to the world. There's not so much need for the Oda or whoever to turn the samurai into bureaucrats and basically take away their martial edge, I'd expect them to become mariners & explorers (and potentially conquerors) instead. And while the last of Europe's crusading fervor was waning in this century, ironically the spirit of holy war could well find a second wind in a Christianizing (particularly Catholicizing) Japan where it ought to mesh well with the existing warrior traditions of the samurai.

 

[WolfBear]

Oh, I don't think we'll have to wait until the Americans show up. An outward-facing, Christian-friendly and eventually actually Christian Japan under an Oda Shogunate (being that they're the most likely route to achieve this outcome) might be able to enlist the aid of Spain's galleons in conquering Korea, and then exploit the decline of the Ming to make a grab for China. They'd have to contend with the Manchus and rebellious Chinese dynasties like the Shun though, of course, and this would presumably be the Japanese indulging in a big spot of geopolitical opportunism rather than actually planning to use China as a springboard from which to conquer India as Toyotomi Hideyoshi did - the Oda are an aristocratic clan of Taira descent and thus have less to prove than the peasant-born Toyotomi did.

I'm not sure how feasible it would be for them to actually take the place of the Manchus/Qing (that is, being the foreign conquerors of mid-to-late 17th century China) but if they could pull it off, or even just split China with the landlocked west of that country remaining under the rule of an ethnic Han dynasty, I do believe they will have released Mothra-sized butterflies over the future course of the entirety of East Asia.

Any chance of a successful Japanese move on the Philippines? Or even Indochina?

There's also the option for Japan of stopping near Beijing and letting the Chinese keep Beijing and the territories to the south of it. Or, as you alluded, we could see a new partition of China emerge. We previously had a partition of China in the late Middle Ages with the split Jin-Song control of China:

Jin–Song Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Topographically, the low-elevation areas should probably be ideal for Japan to conquer, as in the 1930s and 1940s in real life, though logistics might be much more of a bitch for Japan in the early modern (pre-industrial) era:

 

[ATP]

I do think some attempt(s) at outward military expansion was very likely, or even inevitable, in the immediate aftermath of the Sengoku Period. No matter who's on top, there'd still be craploads of samurai and ashigaru (peasant soldiers) alike running around who have known basically nothing but constant warfare all their lives - probably a better idea to redirect their energy & martial experience against Korea, China, et al. rather than leave them to fester and potentially destabilize the homeland because they didn't get the exact fief they wanted for a reward, their lord mistreats them, or whatever other reason crops up to encourage rebellion. This, even more than acquiring legitimacy for his regency/chancellorship, was a factor as to why Hideyoshi attacked Korea historically after all.

In regards to a Christian-friendly regime like that of an early hypothetical Oda Shogunate as has been discussed in this thread, they'd have even more reason to send troublemakers of a zealously anti-Christian disposition to hopefully die on foreign battlefields. IIRC Nobunaga himself expressed some interest in going after China (Hideyoshi himself may have first gotten the idea from his late boss historically), although if he ran into stiff resistance I think he'd give up on the idea more quickly than Hideyoshi - he has less need to legitimize his regime by way of military victories abroad since he's not a literal peasant. (In any case, if they're so inclined Japan needs only wait a few decades to get a good shot at invading China, since the Ming were already starting to decline fast around ~1600)

On a somewhat related note I think the fate of the samurai as a whole would go in a rather different direction with Japan itself remaining open to the world. There's not so much need for the Oda or whoever to turn the samurai into bureaucrats and basically take away their martial edge, I'd expect them to become mariners & explorers (and potentially conquerors) instead. And while the last of Europe's crusading fervor was waning in this century, ironically the spirit of holy war could well find a second wind in a Christianizing (particularly Catholicizing) Japan where it ought to mesh well with the existing warrior traditions of the samurai.

So,send not catholics to fight in China,and catholics as mariners to America and Australia? should work.
And,retaking Palestine in 18 th century by japaneese - i really would love to see it.

 

[History Learner]

With Christmas a few days away, this seems like a good time to pitch this question. During the mid-to-late Sengoku period, several Japanese clans were enamored not only by the trade goods brought by the 'Nanban' (Europeans - at first Portuguese & Spaniards for the most part) but also their religion. These clans converted to Christianity and promoted the new faith in their lands, where it also gained some steam with the commons - IIRC 300,000 Christians (including a number of native Japanese priests, some of whom were martyred by the increasingly anti-Christian governments of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and then Tokugawa Ieyasu) were reported at the height of Western missionary activity in Japan. As we know though, none of those clans came even close to unifying Japan (the closest to get there were the Otomo, who unified the northern half of the westernmost island of Kyushu and seemed to be a contender for control of the whole island until they were badly beaten by their regional Shimazu rivals at the Battle of Mimigawa) and Christianity was ruthlessly suppressed by the Tokugawa who did eventually unite the country.

So, what if the Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa triad were not the ones to unite Japan, but were instead beaten to it by a Christian (not merely Christian-friendly, but actual converts) clan? The aforementioned Otomo (the subject of many 'power of God and anime' memes from the Shogun 2 Total War community outward) seem like the best bet since they really do seem to have been the single most powerful Christian clan in Japan's Sengoku Period and their greatest lord, Otomo Sorin sent the first formal Japanese diplomatic mission to Europe. If you can think of alternatives, I'd happily hear them out: the only other potential convert/unifier I can think of right now are the Ouchi, who hosted Francis Xavier in Yamaguchi for a time but were toppled by the Mori barely a decade after the Portuguese came to Japan. In any case how does Japanese, and indeed East Asian, history proceed with Japan being a Christian-led power aligned with the Spanish/Portuguese and presumably remaining open to the world, rather than the fervently isolationist Tokugawa Shogunate of reality?

Between this and your Thirty Years War thread, I'm starting to think you have a nice basis for a Catholic-wank timeline.

 

[ATP]

Between this and your Thirty Years War thread, I'm starting to think you have a nice basis for a Catholic-wank timeline.

Indeed.If we add polish King Stephan Batory living 10 years longer and finishing Moscov for good,it would be Catholics world.

But,we still could have nestorian Japan.Imagine,that there really were nestorian christian from Persia in 8th century there.
We could have catholics shoguns from 13 or 14th century.
They would take North America and fight other christian nations for that.Which mean no USA.Which mean completly different world then ours if 1789 revolution do not happen.
Kings would still rule for real in this scenario.Much better for everybody,if you ask me.

 

[Atarlost]

Christian Japan is interesting as an ATL because it puts Japan into the orbit of either the Orthodox or Catholic nations and in the latter case may have it taking a side or experiencing internally the Wars of Religion. Nestorianism doesn't do that. The gap is theoretically narrower than between western Christianity and Shintoism, but in practice it may be wider because of the stigma of heresy.

There is no reason to expect Nestorian Japan to take North America because they will have the same drive to keep out the mutually heretical Catholic or Orthodox Christians that lead to Shinto Japan going isolationist.

 

[ATP]

Christian Japan is interesting as an ATL because it puts Japan into the orbit of either the Orthodox or Catholic nations and in the latter case may have it taking a side or experiencing internally the Wars of Religion. Nestorianism doesn't do that. The gap is theoretically narrower than between western Christianity and Shintoism, but in practice it may be wider because of the stigma of heresy.

There is no reason to expect Nestorian Japan to take North America because they will have the same drive to keep out the mutually heretical Catholic or Orthodox Christians that lead to Shinto Japan going isolationist.

Depend.They could take as much as possible of North America and Siberia to deny both to catholics,protestants and orthodox heretics.
And save indian souls.
Something not important for shintoists.