Problem with this take is that NO ONE I have ever heard speak of the Arab nations calls them Semites. It's simply not a part of their public identity.
Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel
- Thread starter Marduk
- Start date
There isn't, and you admit you are not a military expect, so stop your handwringing about 'there must be some other way'.
Israel tried the other way for decades, when they left Gaza, and look what it got them.
Yes, because Israel doesn't use human shields and uses uniformed troops, unlike Hamas, who hide in the civie population (as much as there could be 'civies' in Gaza).
Your problem is you do not understand Gaza is a larger Jonestown, and this time the death cult is killing more than just it's own members.
Also, it is good Israel is killing more of Hamas and their supporters than they did to Israel; Britain killed more Germans that the Germans killed Brits in WW2, that doesn't mean the Brits were the bad guys.
And they have tried that; it got hijacked by Hamas immediately.
So your naive point of view on this is just to let Hamas have more supplies, because that is all that shipping aid into Gaza will accomplish.
What you don't seem to get is that most everyone in Gaza is part of Hamas one way or another, because of how early Hamas starts their indoc of children and use 'civie' homes as rocket launching and storage positions.
All the blood in Gaza is on the hands of Hamas.
Well, maybe don't come across as some sort of naive fool who is handwringing about shit that only hurts Israel, and gives Hamas more cover to operate under.
Maybe also learn a bit about military affairs and laws of warfare before declaring 'there must be another way'.
It also may have escaped you that a lot of Jewish Right Wingers are getting chased away from a lot of other forums for daring to support Israel, and that your 'both sides' argument is completely and utterly hollow in the face of the actual facts on the ground.
Last edited:
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Antisemites love to make that argument, and many of them may even believe it; but once you dig into the actual criticisms being made, the hypocrisy and double standards inherent to them, that excuse starts to ring incredibly hollow.
King Arts
Well-known member
Know what we can turn this right around on Israel lovers. You criticizing China means you hate Chinese people, you criticizing Russia means you hate ethnic Russian people. You disliking arab nations makes you a racist anti semite against Arabs.
The only one who is having a double standard are you guys. You can dislike or even hate a country and not be racist against the people of a certain race. Otherwise you better shut the fuck up about China in the future.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
Are we doing "dogwhistles" here now, too?
But it's ok. You can think whatever you want to think if it makes you feel better. Don't think there's any else thing productive to say here.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Probably not, if you're not willing to admit when you're wrong, and keep insisting that there is nothing antisemitic about holding Jews to a different standard than everyone else.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Here's your key problem then.
There isn't a better way.
There is no way to have a military conflict without having civilian casualties, unless it's incredibly small and focused, like a single battle fought in an empty field. After the conflict, there'll probably be a few minor ways around the edges that failed to be implemented, but nothing systemic, nothing that would have dropped casualties by 90% or similar.
The war between Hamas and Israel is in a city. There is no way to have such a war without civilian casualties. If both sides were interested in avoiding civilian casualties, you might be able to cut them down to a very low level, less than a thousand perhaps, but that isn't the case.
It is Hamas's open and explicit policy to actively use the inhabitants of Gaza as human shields, both to discourage Israeli military efforts, and to use as PR material on the international stage, to try to make Israel look bad.
There is very little, almost nothing, that can be done in such circumstances to mitigate casualties. Warning civilians to try to evacuate is the larger part, and rendering medical aid to injured civilians after an area is cleared of hostiles is most of the rest. Even that though, is spoiled to a significant degree, because Hamas is absolutely not beyond having their members pose as injured civilians, and then suicide bombing anyone who tries to help them.
With the enemy actively trying to increase civilian casualties, almost everything you can try to do to mitigate them, will instead make it worse.
If you try to use less powerful munitions? The conflict lasts longer, and more civilians are killed over time, on top of more of your own soldiers.
If you try to be more cautious in your attacks? The conflict lasts longer, and more civilians are killed over time, on top of more of your own soldiers.
If you try to send supplies to civilians? Hamas ceases them, maybe kills any civilians who resist the seizure, and uses them to strengthen their own militants, so the conflict lasts longer, and more civilians are killed over time, on top of more of your own soldiers.
We do not leave in a neat, orderly, or pretty world. We live in a messy, ugly world, where death and suffering are easy, and stable, peaceful society with low death rates due to violence is a rare and hard thing to sustain.
Hamas has no interest in any of the things we consider hallmarks of a 'civilized' society. Genocide, jihad, and world conquest are their explicit agenda.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
I'm happy to admit when i'm wrong. I'm trying to engage in actual civil conversation, but people are more interesting in just calling me racist. Again, I thought this place was better than that. I guess I was wrong. This is what happens at the lefty boards.
Is there a better way than bombing civilian apartment buildings? I don't know. Apparently wrong. I guess i'm wrong.
There has been precisely zero holding of Jewish people to a different standard. Still don't even understand where that's coming from. I understand this is a triggering conversation for people and I will try to be more respectful of the safe space.
Lol, now you just sound like a troll trying to rile people up while playing dumb about the issues involved, and bleating about "I thought this place wouldn't call out this bullshit I'm spewing."
Also, you are holding Israel responsible for the safety of 'civies' in Gaza, and not holding Hamas responsible for putting 'civies' directly in harms way as part of their doctrine.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
To be fair, it does look like he conceptually holds the same impossibly high standard for everyone. He has explicitly said he thinks that Hamas should be wiped out.
I suspect that he's let media focus warp his perspective, and is unaware of what other conflicts are like, such as what is being done in Yemen, civilian casualties in Ukraine, 'brushfire' wars in Africa, etc, etc.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Some people think the whole world is like their ZIP code, and can't imagine a situation where war might be the least worst option.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
I am ALSO holding Hamas responsible for that. Because... i'm not applying a double standard.
Hamas is wrong to put civilians in harms way.
My standard, for everyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever is... do everything feasibly possible to not kill civilians, even if that makes the war more difficult.
Maybe I can walk back my comment alittle bit. I DO apply a different standard between Israel and Hamas. Hamas are digusting terrorists who deserve to be wiped from this Earth. Israel is a great nation with great people who... yes, I expect to be better than Hamas. Israel IS better than Hamas.
I guess that makes me antisemitic? Ok fine.
King Arts
Well-known member
Yup to some of the neocons if you don’t suck off the state of Israel and say they are our best friends you are an evil anti semite who wants to gas the Jews.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
As with most thing, i'm kind of in the middle.
Israel IS a great friend and ally.
They're also not immune to criticism.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
That happens everywhere; the difference between us and the "lefty boards" (just so you know; I'm a leftist, though I consider myself one of the few sane ones) is the fact that the staff doesn't take sides and silence people they disagree with.
Not when weapons are being fired from those "civilian apartment buildings".
You're complaining about the Jews killing civilians in a war zone and holding them responsible, but not Hamas who put those civilians in that situation in the first place; how do you not see the double standards in that?
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
He is.
He just says 'Hamas should be wiped out' a couple times, and nobody argues against that, so what gets focused on are the actions of Israel.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
I'm also complaining about that...
See, I'd buy that if he wasn't complaining that he feels we are like Lefties for calling him out and that he thought his sort of BS would receive a warm reception here.
You do not understand the nature of this conflict is what it seems like.
Your walk back doesn't make it look better, because it then insists that Israel (being the greater nation) should risk and sacrifice the lives of it's citizens/soldiers to protect the 'civies' (and that is a laughable term in relation to Hamas's supporters and indoc'd youth).
How many IDF/Jewish lives must be put at risk to make the elimination of Hamas a 'clean' affair?
Because that is all your mindset does, is mean Israel has to risk more of it's people to 'protect' civies who mostly hate Jews anyway, and doesn't allow airstrikes on known Hamas locations because civies might get hurt, instead requiring grinding, costly urban combat to do all the hard work in eliminating Hamas.
You may not be a 'devout' antisemitic person. But your naivety, and unwillingness to understand what your ideas actually would cost to undertake, still puts you in the camp of wanting Israel to sacrifice more of it's citizens, after the worst thing to happen to Jews since the Holocaust, in order to protect Hamas's human shields.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
That was a dick move on my part. General forum trauma, i'm sick and tired of the extreme left boards and it seems like immediately it's the same shit.
Totally uncalled for.
You know what, i'll take some of i've learned at the leftist boards and apply it here.
I apologize. I'm not Jewish and if someone who is Jewish is calling me antisemitic, I need to accept that. It appears I am antisemitic and apologize. I will commit to working to not being so in the future.