Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

I'd love to see stories about a straight up good empire.

There could totally be Imperial knights without even a bit of the dark side in them then.

I very much doubt we will ever see it realized in any substantive way but a reformed empire would be so damn cool.

A "good Empire" is certainly possible, but probably difficult to write effectively and I don't think it would be sustainable... either the Good Empire stops being an Empire and basically just becomes The Republic, or it slips back into being a Bad Empire.
 
Thrawn says in one of the new canon books that his goal, in the long term is two-fold, and revolves around both fixing the empire, and making sure the Empire is strong enough to deal with the threats the Chiss Asendancy cannot handle themselves.

1) Palp's will not live forever (Thrawn doesn't know about Exogol/Byss and Palp's clones) and Thrawn wants to be in a position to influence his successor towards less destructive ruling methods.

2) Thrawn knows there are bigger threats out there than the Empire, and thinks that he can buy time to find a way to fight them by helping the Empire focus on the Rebels. Because while the enemy is distracted with the Rebel/Empire fight, Thrawn may find a weapon or means to beat the larger threat.
Thrown (NOT the Disney one) is one of my favorite star wars characters.

I would love to see him be a reformist or something.
 
I'd go even further than that.

I'd love to see stories about a straight up good empire.

What happens when Palpatine and all the truly evil people at the top are beaten?

When all that's left are people just trying to keep things going without the pressure from above to be evil?

Like in the EU when Pellaeon ended up in charge.

There could totally be Imperial knights without even a bit of the dark side in them then.

I very much doubt we will ever see it realized in any substantive way but a reformed empire would be so damn cool.

Lucas was rather into the notion of history repeating itself, and explicitly saw the fall of the Old Republic in light of the fall of the Roman republic (with Palpatine as a very evil "Caesar") and in light of the potential similar (future) decline and fall of the American republic. [Being pretty left-wing, certainly back in the day, he saw Nixon as an indicator of the Republic's moral decay. One might quibble with that, but Lucas's overall view of "how Republics die" is clear enough.]

This approach provides a rather obvious avenue for exploring a (reasonably) "good" Empire, in that you need Palpy to die (permanently) and some highly gifted ruler (akin to Augustus) taking power and reforming the Empire from a fascist regime into a more traditional monarchy. Another point of reference in history would be Qin Shi Huangdi in China, whose reign (like Palpatine's) was significantly longer than Caesar's, and (also like Palpatine's) much more draconian and brutal. And after his death, we still see that a highly capable man (Gaozu) ends up seizing power and founding the far more traditional (and far less monstrously oppressive) Han dynasty.

In the context of the original EU, the closest approximation of this that we get is the Fel Empire, but that hardly functions on the same scale (being essentially just a lesser successor state and a regional power). Indeed, SW has no "Augustus" to match Palpatine's "Caesar". Thrawn is the most-suggested candidate, but he too is limited in his abilities. A masterful tactician, but if we go by his record, not on the level of "grand strategist" that a true ruler of that calibre requires. (As @Bacle mentions: Thrawn's goal was "merely" to influence Palpatine's successor. If we go with the Roman analogy that Lucas introduced, I think Thrawn would fit the role of Agrippa, not of Augustus.)

I have given some thought to this matter, and I think you could quite easily just invent an Augustus-analogue for the setting. My own approach there was to take the once-mentioned side character Ederlathh Pallopides (who is Palpatine's grand-niece, and just four years old when he dies), and from there extrapolate that this girl must have had a family. I just assume that SW's Augustus-figure was some relative of her, and that in OTL, Palpatine had him killed early on (since Palpatine was no stranger to murdering potential rivals... nor relatives, for that matter).

It's all too easy, for there, to imagine a divergent history where Palpatine, like Caesar, is assassinated early into his reign, and this unnamed relative that he had killed in OTL ends up eventually succeedding him on the throne. (And founding a reasonably benevolent Empire that lasts for many centuries.)

I have some notes for "SW, but more like Roman history" (since I already wrote an essay on "Roman history, but more like SW"). In those, I call this hypothetical character "Antavioc Pallopides". (Which, yes, is just the laziest anagram for "Octavian" ever. Sue me.) Basically, he's the Emperor that Thrawn was hoping for, and with Palpy taken out early and the civil wars dragging on longer, he and Thrawn -- both young men at the time -- basically found the Empire together. Which makes it a rather different Empire, from a very early point on.
 
Lucas was rather into the notion of history repeating itself, and explicitly saw the fall of the Old Republic in light of the fall of the Roman republic (with Palpatine as a very evil "Caesar") and in light of the potential similar (future) decline and fall of the American republic. [Being pretty left-wing, certainly back in the day, he saw Nixon as an indicator of the Republic's moral decay. One might quibble with that, but Lucas's overall view of "how Republics die" is clear enough.]

This approach provides a rather obvious avenue for exploring a (reasonably) "good" Empire, in that you need Palpy to die (permanently) and some highly gifted ruler (akin to Augustus) taking power and reforming the Empire from a fascist regime into a more traditional monarchy. Another point of reference in history would be Qin Shi Huangdi in China, whose reign (like Palpatine's) was significantly longer than Caesar's, and (also like Palpatine's) much more draconian and brutal. And after his death, we still see that a highly capable man (Gaozu) ends up seizing power and founding the far more traditional (and far less monstrously oppressive) Han dynasty.

In the context of the original EU, the closest approximation of this that we get is the Fel Empire, but that hardly functions on the same scale (being essentially just a lesser successor state and a regional power). Indeed, SW has no "Augustus" to match Palpatine's "Caesar". Thrawn is the most-suggested candidate, but he too is limited in his abilities. A masterful tactician, but if we go by his record, not on the level of "grand strategist" that a true ruler of that calibre requires. (As @Bacle mentions: Thrawn's goal was "merely" to influence Palpatine's successor. If we go with the Roman analogy that Lucas introduced, I think Thrawn would fit the role of Agrippa, not of Augustus.)

I have given some thought to this matter, and I think you could quite easily just invent an Augustus-analogue for the setting. My own approach there was to take the once-mentioned side character Ederlathh Pallopides (who is Palpatine's grand-niece, and just four years old when he dies), and from there extrapolate that this girl must have had a family. I just assume that SW's Augustus-figure was some relative of her, and that in OTL, Palpatine had him killed early on (since Palpatine was no stranger to murdering potential rivals... nor relatives, for that matter).

It's all too easy, for there, to imagine a divergent history where Palpatine, like Caesar, is assassinated early into his reign, and this unnamed relative that he had killed in OTL ends up eventually succeedding him on the throne. (And founding a reasonably benevolent Empire that lasts for many centuries.)

I have some notes for "SW, but more like Roman history" (since I already wrote an essay on "Roman history, but more like SW"). In those, I call this hypothetical character "Antavioc Pallopides". (Which, yes, is just the laziest anagram for "Octavian" ever. Sue me.) Basically, he's the Emperor that Thrawn was hoping for, and with Palpy taken out early and the civil wars dragging on longer, he and Thrawn -- both young men at the time -- basically found the Empire together. Which makes it a rather different Empire, from a very early point on.
Trioculus would like to say hi, at least in terms of direct successor to Palps.

Ironically, the one EU Imperial who actually managed to accomplish most of the 'Roman-esque' take over in the long run was freaking DAALA.
 
Trioculus would like to say hi, at least in terms of direct successor to Palps.

Ironically, the one EU Imperial who actually managed to accomplish most of the 'Roman-esque' take over in the long run was freaking DAALA.

Daala is under-rated. Those books aren't very well-written, but when we look at Daala's campaign, it's of a similar scope as Thrawn's campaign. And she, too, gets killed off by a factor that would be rather hard to predict. (In fact, Thrawn keeping super-killers around while actively deceiving them makes his death at least somewhat his own fault, whereas there was really zero way for Daala to know that a bunch of Jedi could unite their powers to throw a fleet across several astronomical units. The Jedi during the Clone Wars never did shit like that!)

She's still more of an also-ran, though. Like Thrawn, I don't think she'd really be able to build a lasting and non-shit Empire from the ruins. But she did forcibly stop the anti-alien bullshit, and that's to her credit!



Trioculus, meanwhile, is just hopeless. (And I just refuse to recognise those books as canonical. Too silly, and completely over-written by everything else. Wasn't there even an attempt re-interpret them, canonically, as being incorrect holo-films that get made in-universe? That idea was at least suggested, but I'm not sure if they ultimately made that explanation official...)
 
Daala is under-rated. Those books aren't very well-written, but when we look at Daala's campaign, it's of a similar scope as Thrawn's campaign. And she, too, gets killed off by a factor that would be rather hard to predict. (In fact, Thrawn keeping super-killers around while actively deceiving them makes his death at least somewhat his own fault, whereas there was really zero way for Daala to know that a bunch of Jedi could unite their powers to throw a fleet across several astronomical units. The Jedi during the Clone Wars never did shit like that!)

She's still more of an also-ran, though. Like Thrawn, I don't think she'd really be able to build a lasting and non-shit Empire from the ruins. But she did forcibly stop the anti-alien bullshit, and that's to her credit!



Trioculus, meanwhile, is just hopeless. (And I just refuse to recognise those books as canonical. Too silly, and completely over-written by everything else. Wasn't there even an attempt re-interpret them, canonically, as being incorrect holo-films that get made in-universe? That idea was at least suggested, but I'm not sure if they ultimately made that explanation official...)
Daala wasn't killed off, though; she actually became president of the Galactic Alliance post Vong.

After she turned over reigns to Pelleaon, she actually ended up becoming one of his clandestine operatives he could trust to undertake shady operations competently on his behalf.

Shit, Daala actually ended up commanding the Chimera for a while, after Pelleaon was injured during the closing months of the Vong War, and kept command of it all teh way into the Second Galactic Civil War and using it as a test-bed for new crystal-phased turbolaser tech (IIRC) that could penetrate shields without having to knock shields all the way down.
 
Daala wasn't killed off, though; she actually became president of the Galactic Alliance post Vong.

After she turned over reigns to Pelleaon, she actually ended up becoming one of his clandestine operatives he could trust to undertake shady operations competently on his behalf.

Shit, Daala actually ended up commanding the Chimera for a while, after Pelleaon was injured during the closing months of the Vong War, and kept command of it all teh way into the Second Galactic Civil War and using it as a test-bed for new crystal-phased turbolaser tech (IIRC) that could penetrate shields without having to knock shields all the way down.

I meant it more as "her campaign was killed off", but yeah, the comparison gets weird because of how I phrased that.
 
I meant it more as "her campaign was killed off", but yeah, the comparison gets weird because of how I phrased that.
The galaxy got very, very lucky Daala never violated her orders to stay in the Maw, till after Palp's clone's were dead and people like Thrawn and Zsinj were already gone.

If Daala had come out during any of those campaigns, and given the Imperials access to the Maw Installation, the NR would have been turbo-fucked.
 
Trioculus, meanwhile, is just hopeless. (And I just refuse to recognise those books as canonical. Too silly, and completely over-written by everything else. Wasn't there even an attempt re-interpret them, canonically, as being incorrect holo-films that get made in-universe? That idea was at least suggested, but I'm not sure if they ultimately made that explanation official...)

Yeah. One of those things better left forgotten.

It has always bothered me that there never was an... heir to the Empire... in either Legends or Canon. I know Palpatine designed it that way, in Legends assuming he would just be around and in Canon out pure spite but it seemed like SOMEBODY should have been around and high ranking enough to take over.

I guess it was Mas Amedda in canon but he never seemed to care much and was more interesting in making sure he was taken care of.
 
A "good Empire" is certainly possible, but probably difficult to write effectively and I don't think it would be sustainable... either the Good Empire stops being an Empire and basically just becomes The Republic, or it slips back into being a Bad Empire.
No, the difference in government structure very much can persist in the face of ceasing to be "bad" on any institutional level, but there's not really any present de jure top-down governments around today to point to so inspiration is lacking. You might see it start to feudalize so that the day-to-day local operations are handled by locals with some level of assent from the general population, but transitioning directly from imperial authority to representative government is incredibly hazardous.
 
The problem is that you're looking at a galaxy-spanning polity that contains many, many thousands of sapient species (with widely differing cultures and biologies -- some are literally hard-wired for communalism, for instance). Imposing a single system is by definition going to be an oppressive act, because in this setting, one size literally cannot ever fit all. It's impossible.

In that context, the only way to respect the basic rights of all sapient beings is to institute a large degree of autonomy and self-governance. So it's true: a "good Empire" either becomes "just like the Republic, but now with a monarch" (a.k.a "the Holy Roman Empire, but in space!"), or it tries to maintain centralist control (the main feature of Palpatine's regime), in which case it is a distinctly oppressive and "bad" government by default.
 
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The problem is that you're looking at a galaxy-spanning polity that contains many, many thousands of sapient species (with widely differing cultures and biologies -- some are literally hard-wired for communalism, for instance). Opposing a single system is by definition going to be an oppressive act, because in this setting, one size literally cannot ever fit all. It's impossible.

In that context, the only way to respect the basic rights of all sapient beings is to institute a large degree of autonomy and self-governance. So it's true: a "good Empire" either becomes "just like the Republic, but now with a monarch" (a.k.a "the Holy Roman Empire, but in space!"), or it tries to maintain centralist control (the main feature of Palpatine's regime), in which case it is a distinctly oppressive and "bad" government by default.
As I understand it the Republic’s primary fuck up was its lacking a military to effectively enforce its laws. Executing Order 66 becomes a lot more difficult as well when the rank and file of the Army are professional volunteers you can’t brainwash at the snap of your fingers as well.

As for the topic of “Empire”, Rome dominated many different peoples but it did it oddly fairly. Swear loyalty to the Emperor, obey his laws, pay his taxes, and speak at least a little Latin, and the Empire couldn’t care less what God you worship or what you do in private.

Unless you had no sense of self preservation like the early Christians and actively defied the Empire, you had little to worry about.

Personally I think a polity willing to stomp its dominion across the known universe, finally bringing the Outer Rim to order, can only be a good thing. It’s just a shame Palpatine was barking mad.
 
As I understand it the Republic’s primary fuck up was its lacking a military to effectively enforce its laws. Executing Order 66 becomes a lot more difficult as well when the rank and file of the Army are professional volunteers you can’t brainwash at the snap of your fingers as well.
Only post-Ruusan, actually. The Republic at the height of its power during the 3000s BBY had a massive and very effective military. It's telling it took the Sith Empire around a thousand years to build up the strength to even challenge the Republic, and success was explicitly dependent on Imperial Intelligence stacking the deck in their favor. In-universe, it's even admitted that the collapse of Imperial Intelligence was when Imperial strategy bombed, with the possibility of the organization's resurgence a major concern for the Republic.

That's right, the only reason the Sith Empire got as far as it did was Imperial Intelligence cheating every chance it could get.

Not to mention this was the true Golden Age of the Jedi, unshackled by doctrine and able to accept the mysteries of the Force simply as they are. The Order of Bane would never have made any real gains against this Jedi Order, assuming they weren't snuffed out in their infancy by the nascent Celestial that was Darth Vitiate. This was the Order that Anakin heard about and idolized in legends and stories passed down over the millennia, the Order that struck fear into the hearts of the Sith, the Order that earned the respect of the Mandalorians, and which the Order of Bane made damn sure the post-Ruusan Order could never have become.
 
As I understand it the Republic’s primary fuck up was its lacking a military to effectively enforce its laws. Executing Order 66 becomes a lot more difficult as well when the rank and file of the Army are professional volunteers you can’t brainwash at the snap of your fingers as well.

As @Jaenera Targaryen mentioned, this is of course a purely post-Ruusan state of affairs. For most of its preceding history (a stretch of some 24 millennia, that is) the Republic did indeed have a standing military. Neither did this conflict with a general trend of decentralism; the Republic was at most times in effect a confederal union-- simply one that was sanely organised, and understood that the common defence is functionally the main task of any general government.

Abolishing the common military was the great mistake of the post-Ruusan reforms. Not that it is some incomprehensible error; it makes sense in context. But it was still a fatal mistake. At least in the long term! We should remember that the Judicials did actually function as a "close enough" alternative to a real military for some eight hundred years. Only in the last strech did these forces become deliberately hollowed-out (again, due to Sith machinations).

Basically, the post-Ruusan Republic had some built-in weak spots, and the Sith worked for a thousand years to exploit these fully, in order to finally destroy the Republic from within.


As for the topic of “Empire”, Rome dominated many different peoples but it did it oddly fairly. Swear loyalty to the Emperor, obey his laws, pay his taxes, and speak at least a little Latin, and the Empire couldn’t care less what God you worship or what you do in private.

Unless you had no sense of self preservation like the early Christians and actively defied the Empire, you had little to worry about.

Personally I think a polity willing to stomp its dominion across the known universe, finally bringing the Outer Rim to order, can only be a good thing. It’s just a shame Palpatine was barking mad.

Rome ruled a part of one planet, populated entirely by one sapient species, whose member nations are biologically and even culturally near-identical. (Certainly when compared to a whole galaxy teeming with alien species!) I don't think the exact same rules can be said to apply.

What you describe is, however, precisely why the Imperial Remnant / Fel Empire can function quite well: it's a more regional entity, and consists entirely of people who liked a lot of things about the Empire to begin with. They have the same general ideas about what their society should be like. So if that's more like a "Roman" model where a common "Imperal culture" dominates, that's fine. And yes, a government can be more centralist -- without this being an ussue for the governed -- if the governed are culturally and politically very homogenous (and homogeneously in favour of centralism).

Trying to impose that on the whole galaxy would not be fine. Whatever Jagged and Jaina build up is surely going to be a decent, non-asshole government. But if they then tried to make that the government of the whole galaxy, against the will of all those other peoples... no, that would not be a good thing.
 
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Pretty sure that was the whole point of the Imperial Mission: to make the people of the galaxy want to be part of the Empire. It also helped that the New Republic and even the Galactic Federation eventually adopted the same Core-centric policies of their predecessors. And since the Empire by then had become a Rim-based power themselves, well, choosing between absentee tax collectors and corrupt politicians on ivory towers at Coruscant or actually local and even competent (or at least halfway competent) military officers and civil administrators who could be counted on to do right by them (and have) if only out of pragmatic self-interest...

...not much of a choice, really.

And considering the Federation eventually folded and the Fel Empire took center stage against Darth Krayt's resurgent Sith Empire (even bringing down their own Emperor when he went nuts), it's no surprise that past Krayt's death, everyone decided to just stick with the Fels.
 
In terms of different paths that could have been taken in regards to story telling, personally I think a “Galactic Balkanisation“ would be an interesting path to take after the Battle of Endor. The Alliance tries to restore the Republic but people are understandably a bit sick of Courscant‘s dominance and look to govern themselves.

Into which an aspiring Imperial warlord steps.

Roll screen crawl.

That and you could have a neo-Confederacy of Independent Systems* that’s not a Sith puppet. Particularly in regards to the ‘outer rim getting sick of taking orders from Core Worlds/ Courscant’ angle.

I think part of the problem we have, especially in the Disney version but the EU also had this problem to an extent, is that you have basically a handful of factions at a given time.

Those being:

A) The Old Republic/ Rebel Alliance/ New Republic

B) The Sith Empire or Confederacy of Independent Systems (depending on era)/ Galactic Empire/ Imperial Remnant

C) Weird aliens or culture of the week/ Minor power of the week/ the Hutts/ the Vong.

Which, don’t get me wrong isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It can however lead to the stories being a bit stale.

Having a third major faction, especially post-Endor, I feel would lead to more story telling opportunities and potential without over complicating the setting.

From memory I feel like they tried that with the Vong War but didn’t do enough with it. As the Imperial Remnant or Empire of the Hand didn’t really do much on screen. Then again, the Vong War always felt like it needed a rewrite or two to me.


* maybe it’s just me, but I really feel like the Prequel era and the Clone Wars would have been more interesting if both sides aren’t Sith puppets.
 
Pretty sure that was the whole point of the Imperial Mission: to make the people of the galaxy want to be part of the Empire. It also helped that the New Republic and even the Galactic Federation eventually adopted the same Core-centric policies of their predecessors. And since the Empire by then had become a Rim-based power themselves, well, choosing between absentee tax collectors and corrupt politicians on ivory towers at Coruscant or actually local and even competent (or at least halfway competent) military officers and civil administrators who could be counted on to do right by them (and have) if only out of pragmatic self-interest...

...not much of a choice, really.

And considering the Federation eventually folded and the Fel Empire took center stage against Darth Krayt's resurgent Sith Empire (even bringing down their own Emperor when he went nuts), it's no surprise that past Krayt's death, everyone decided to just stick with the Fels.
I wish Disney would bring back Soontir Fel; he was one of the coolest SOBs in the entire EU.
 

That's a closed subforum. I'm not going to make a sock account for a site where the owner banned me for calling out the rank hypocrisy of his mods. Is there some other place to read this? Failing that, is there a summary?


* maybe it’s just me, but I really feel like the Prequel era and the Clone Wars would have been more interesting if both sides aren’t Sith puppets.

Probaly just you, yeah. ;) Palpy controlling both sides and having set up the whole thing as a trap from which there's no escape is generally considered Lucas's best idea in making the prequels. The narrative value of the idea is that the war cannot be won.


I wish Disney would bring back Soontir Fel; he was one of the coolest SOBs in the entire EU.

To think: Zahn and Stackpole actually wrote the story of how he was recruited by Thrawn, and the publishers were like, "nah, we don't need that". (This was all pre-Disney, though.)
 

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