evilchumlee
Well-known member
On the flip, some people seem to be annoyed with Star Wars just being... fun good vs. evil stories with dudes fighting with laser swords.
Star Wars can be all of that.
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On the flip, some people seem to be annoyed with Star Wars just being... fun good vs. evil stories with dudes fighting with laser swords.
Star Wars can be all of that.
After a while the antics of the Jedi and Sith get old and repetitive, while being less and less cool and more absurd as time goes by.
That was why I was glad they brought Mando's in fully; finally the people who used to hand Jedi their ass repeatedly were getting some due screen time.
It's the same reason I hate wizards from the Potter-verse; muggles are who I ID with, not the hero's with their special powers.
The every-man needs hero's too, and 'special' folks with superpowers are only threats to muggles and teh common folk of most universes.
If every Force user in the GFFA dropped dead all at once, the galaxy would be a much safer and less war ravaged place.
Literally the only benign Force users are Chiss Sky-walkers, and that's mostly because they lose their powers before age 15 99% of the time.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
They have their place. I think Star Wars works with a bit of a rotation... don't just keep doing the same style. Star Wars is a unique animal in that it's like, almost a medium of entertainment at this point rather than a simple setting.
Do a Space Fantasy Jedi/Sith thing. Do a Space Western. Do a gritty spy drama. Do a horror-themed thing. Do a light comedic type thing. Do a really spacey/scifi thing. Go back to a Space Fantasy thing, etc.
Star Wars can be... anything. You can do a... Cyberpunk crime drama. It works.
EDIT -
I've long had an idea for a Star Wars story that's basically Star Trek, but from the perspective of an Imperial ship exploring the Unknown Regions. It's geared more towards the sci-fi aspect, discovering crazy aliens and all that, but with a slightly-less-evil Imperial crew.
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Yes, and also Snoke is essentially the unholy lovechild of Smeagol and Luuke.
I think it is a particular strength of Star Wars...and also 40k. You can have radically different concepts existing in the setting, and have stories from different genres co-exist. I mean in the old EU you have thing Furry-Teddy-Bear-Vietcong with literally magic powers and dorks who say things like "dark greetings" co-exist in a setting with examples such as BDSM biotech-using anti-conventional technology jihadists invading the Galaxy and committing unspeakable atrocities and Space Dinosaurs who power their technology with people's souls (extracted by torturing them to death). Also you literally have a backstory element about the time the Republic larped as the IoM.
What was garbage is that the writers realized a lot of people actually liked the nuanced villain they'd created in Dukat, and apparently just couldn't have that, so they decided to just lose all the nuance with him. Basically the same idiotic attitude that ruins modern writing, too, where they just can't stand the thought of anyone thinking their bad guys are cool in any kind of way.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
It's such a weird thing that... that happened.
40k does sort of work in the same regard, but not quite to the extent of Star Wars.
That might play a part in it, ESPECIALLY more recently with all the pandering, but I think oftentimes writers are just worried that their villain isn't enough. You have this story that involved non-corporeal aliens who exist outside of time and a main character who was literally born of the gods and the villain is... a guy? Just a regular old guy who is like, somewhat Space Hitler but not really, and sometimes kind of good but usually bad?
It DID work... but I think the creep set in and they needed to make everything BIGGER!
Skallagrim
Well-known member
My issue with your whole take continues to be that you only use your own personal opinions about what is "serious" and "mature" and "realistic" as a measuring stick, while you ignore that this story was founded on diametrically opposed assumptions. And you must surely know that, but you insist on imposing your preferences on the story.
You're no better, in this specific regard, than the wokies who want to rape and disfigure all existing stories to suit their preferences.
You -- like those wokies -- could really stand to learn that it is wise and just to respect things for what they are. And if you don't like what they are; don't try to warp them. Make your own stories. That's so much better, on both sides of the equation. It leaves the existing story to be as ought to be, and it allows you to bring a new story into the world, on its own terms.
This powerfully illustrates my point. You dislike the Force, the Jedi, the morality, the supernatural elements...
....do you even like SW? You tell us here that you hate everything about it that's unique. You only like the bits (at least by this, your own accounting) that it has in common with every bog-standard sci fi setting. And what's worse, you avidly want to strip SW of all its unique elements, to make it more generic.
Everything you say only proves that the kind of stuff you really like should be a whole separate setting, unconnected to SW.
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It was a super-weird swerve, because they in no way excused his actions. He was undisputably evil, but compelling. It really showed how convincing a monster can be. (And how he completely deceives himself, too.) Great writing!
And then they got scared.
I still think they switched around the intended finales for Dukat and Damar. Initially, Damar was a fanatic and a brute, and Dukat was a tyrant with a complex personality who was obsessed with being loved. Dukat's story is clearly the set-up for a tragedy, but they turned him two-dimensional instead.
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This is the kind of thing I'd have wanted post-NJO, in the old EU. (Instead of the cynical, bleak and childishly edgy Denningverse.)
But rather than an Imperial ship, I'd have it be a joint mission between the Republic and the Empire. In the wake of their collaboration in the previous war, they'd be more inclined towards working together. Putting representatives of both on the same ship would create interesting tensions and 'culture shock'.
It would also be a perfect way to avoid anyone restarting the Republic-versus-Empire thing after the NJO series. And you'd avoid new galaxy-sundering wars. The new adventure would be about exploration and all sorts of smaller-scale adventures. Rather than just being like Trek, though, I think in the pulpy SW setting, you could take more direct inspiration from Western adventure serials of old. (If you compare it to Trek, the closest comparison would be TOS, to be sure.)
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Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
In terms of different paths that could have been taken in regards to story telling, personally I think a “Galactic Balkanisation“ would be an interesting path to take after the Battle of Endor. The Alliance tries to restore the Republic but people are understandably a bit sick of Courscant‘s dominance and look to govern themselves.
Into which an aspiring Imperial warlord steps.
Roll screen crawl.
Into which an aspiring Imperial warlord steps.
Roll screen crawl.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Basically the EU's post-Endor situation, but re-unification fails? This would imply that not only the New Republic fails to 'gel', but that the central Imperial government is likewise unable to re-establish authority. Which is credible enough, if you look at Pestage and Isard...
The tricky thing is preventing someone like Zsinj from just rolling in and becoming the new ruler of the galaxy. And if not him, them Thrawn is still coming back. Naturally, you could make up entirely different warlords and have things balance out. But from the perspective of what we saw in the EU, it's actually rather difficult to keep the Imperials properly divided.
Most scenarios that don't have one side winning gravitate quite naturally to a Republic-versus-Empire cold war.
Let's suppose that Thrawn is killed in the Unknown Regions. (Or somehow kept too busy there for longer, making him the threat that upsets the balance later on.) We might choose to ignore Dark Empire, or take it as a given that Carnor Jax sabotaged Palpy's clones earlier, preventing his return completely. The big POD of consequence should probably be that the New Republic fails to re-take the Core. Isard's Empire keeps its hold there, but is confined to the Core regions. The self-proclaimed Republic still fights back Zsinj, but fails to kill him off, since they're weaker. They drive him back, but it costs them dearly. This embitters the Republic, creating a rift between centralist types who want to build a strong fleet and really militarise, versus the ideological heirs of the CIS who demand that the Republic refrain from becoming anything like the centralist-militarist faction that Palpy headed.
Soon enough, the New Republic splits apart. Certainly into two states, possibly with various splinter alignments also breaking away. Next to that, you have the Imperial Core, Greater Maldrood, the Eriadu Authority, Zsinj's empire (albeit trucated a bit), the Penstastar Alignment, Krennel's Ciutric Hegemony, and a gaggle of lesser post-Imperial warlord states. And of course, various traditionally (semi-)independent regions stay or become separate: the Corporate Sector, Nouane, the Centrality, the Greater Tion...
There are some real challenges to this. Even given the above starting points, we see time and again that the Imperials -- in the period of roughly 4 ABY through 12 ABY -- still had considerable staying power. I think you may have to somehow get the Imperial systems between the Core and the Pentastar Alignment to secede from Isard's empire. (Possibly a wldly successful result of Baron Fel accepting Turr Phennir's suggestion of taking the whole damn 181st and turning warlord? That kind of state could draw in moderate Imperials like Baron D'Asta, too. And an ATL Fel Empire still showing up would be fun.)
If I understand your idea correctly, the plot would then be that this new state of affairs -- a galaxy truly divided into many polities, for the first time in over a millennium -- would settle for the next decade or so, and then some external force would fall upon the galaxy and upset everything. (Potentially Thrawn, at the head of his Empire of the Hand, which he's had longer to build up, and which would represent what the First Order could have been, if written by competent authors. But of course this external threat could be something completely different, too. ...Don't say "the Vong".)
Once Warlord Zsinj starts rolling, he'll be hard for anyone to stop...
evilchumlee
Well-known member
That could work too.
I just... like the Empire, so went with that. I was kind of going for a vibe of it being similar to Star Trek, but veers off due to... Empire stuff. Although I want the verboten "Actually, not all Imperials are evil" type thing where the Captain of this ship isn't some sadist super nazi. He just... explores and does science stuff. Just. For the Empire.
Nah, change is what SW has needed, and if the wokies can push their agenda and get it put in, why should others not try the same for their own side/gains.
No story stays unchanged if it survives very long, and Lucas himself has changed shit in SW multiple times, even before he sold it to Disney (Han Shot First ring a bell).
The game won't stop, just because you don't want to play.
I dislike stories that pretend the superpowered individuals are all that matters and the only focus of the story.
I don't mind the Force, when it is used as more than a shorthand morality play, and more like actual magic.
Like the Dathomiri magicks are such a refreshing thing to see actually used in live action.
I'm more into Stars Wars for the 'war' part, not the fairy tail in outer-space bit, and for having a lot of kick ass games that didn't need to Force to be fun to play (Rogue Squadron for N64, Empire at War, Shadows of the Empire).
Also, SW has nice ships and fighters, and that is completely independent of any morality play.
No, I just understand that SW is more than a Light/Dark morality play now, and has been for a long time (particularly when a lot of designs are to drive toy sales).
You can bleat about how Andor isn't canon because it's the wrong tone, you can whine about people wanting to tell more than just children's stories via SW, and you can insult me because you think I am not a 'pure' fan who wants nothing about SW to change.
Doesn't change that a lot of people who weren't huge SW fans thought Andor was awesome, and preferred the more adult tone of the series.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The galaxy would be balkanising whilst the Empire/Imperial Remnant is having a “Romance and the Three Kingdoms in Space” moment. Into which our enterprising warlord (one Moff Cao Cao we spoke of a little while back) comes strolling.
Edit: Further to that, it would be wolves tearing each other to pieces for scraps of Palpatine’s power, whilst others strike out on their own. The Star Wars Galaxy would look like a far more chaotic and complicated place, with some historians deeming the Empire as perhaps the last hurrah of centralised galactic governance.
Do you think there would be multiple CIS revivalist movements? All the different elements starting their own states, such as true believers setting up a second confederacy around Raxus, the Jabimi nationalists banding together with other nationalist movements into some weird pan-nationalist state, the corporates creating their own AnCapistan, maybe even some more decentralists creating an even looser confederation...
evilchumlee
Well-known member
I DO think the Post-Sequel Era could be interesting for exactly some of these reasons noted... it seems unlikely the Republic would get back up and running.
The New Republic had the benefit of a ton of institutional knowledge from the old Republic still existing. The initial leaders of the NR were the same leaders of the OR.
Post-Sequels? They don't have that. The entire political apparatus was destroyed on Hosnian Prime. There may be a few straggler Senators and what not who were offworld, but by and large anyone with experience is gone. Leia is dead. If Mon Mothma is still alive, she's VERY old.
It's quite literally on Finn, Poe, Rey, Lando and a handful of admin types from the Resistance to try to get a galactic government back up and running.
Lando is the only one with literally ANY experience in any sort of politics, and he's quite old himself.
Not to mention that the First Order was "defeated" yes... but... the sentiment that allowed the First Order to thrive still exists, and they had massive ground forces in play that didn't just evaporate overnight. They lost a majority of their fleet and their leadership. We're back to Imperial Remnant 2: First Order Boogaloo.
I do think we end up a super balkanized galaxy in the wake of the ST. The Republic failed big time, AGAIN... I don't think anyone is going to be super thrilled to try it again.
The New Republic had the benefit of a ton of institutional knowledge from the old Republic still existing. The initial leaders of the NR were the same leaders of the OR.
Post-Sequels? They don't have that. The entire political apparatus was destroyed on Hosnian Prime. There may be a few straggler Senators and what not who were offworld, but by and large anyone with experience is gone. Leia is dead. If Mon Mothma is still alive, she's VERY old.
It's quite literally on Finn, Poe, Rey, Lando and a handful of admin types from the Resistance to try to get a galactic government back up and running.
Lando is the only one with literally ANY experience in any sort of politics, and he's quite old himself.
Not to mention that the First Order was "defeated" yes... but... the sentiment that allowed the First Order to thrive still exists, and they had massive ground forces in play that didn't just evaporate overnight. They lost a majority of their fleet and their leadership. We're back to Imperial Remnant 2: First Order Boogaloo.
I do think we end up a super balkanized galaxy in the wake of the ST. The Republic failed big time, AGAIN... I don't think anyone is going to be super thrilled to try it again.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
The Old Republic was basically an incompetent space UN/EU.
Power to the states, er. I mean systems/planets.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
It would be interesting to see Luke attempting to re-establish the Jedi in such a context. Various states might be interested in welcoming Jedi (because Jedi can be very useful in solving certain internal conflicts), while others might ban Jedi, and/or seek to establish their own counterpart organisations (e.g. Imperial Knights, or the Pentastar Alignment recriting a bunch of ex-Inquisitors).
In case of balkanisation, there would definitely be neo-CIS activity. It would be in their interest to band together rather than all go their own way-- not least because their philosophy would be decentralist anyway. But surely they'd be a confederation or alliance of sovereign member states.
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Basically, after the sequels, you get the warlord era that the EU (realistically!) had after the OT. Disney, for reasons inexplicable, had the Empire completely implode within a year. And then they had the First Order (basically just the Empire again) pops up and they do a re-run of the OT's Empire-versus-Rebellion plot.
In conclusion: the sequels are a complete re-tread, and should not have existed at all.
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It lasted (in that decentralised, post-Ruusan iteration) for a millennium. That's the opposite of incompetence. It was a staggering success. It only started to fail in the last stretch before the Clone Wars, and that was purely because of Sith manipulation.
If the Banite Sith had gone extinct, the Republic could have lasted much longer, without major issues. All the problems leading to its decline were deliberately engineered by the Sith. The most pressing ones by Plagueis and Palpatine, within the decades preceding the prequel trilogy...
evilchumlee
Well-known member
I love the idea of Imperial Jedi Knights.
Not Sith. Not even "Dark Jedi".
Just... Jedi, who choose to serve a future iteration of the Empire. Sure they would likely verge on "Dark Jedi", almost certainly not following the same restrictions as the Republic Jedi Order but we're still talking about people who are devoted to the Jedi "religion" as it were, in the Empire.
Bigking321
Well-known member
I'd go even further than that.
I'd love to see stories about a straight up good empire.
What happens when Palpatine and all the truly evil people at the top are beaten?
When all that's left are people just trying to keep things going without the pressure from above to be evil?
Like in the EU when Pellaeon ended up in charge.
There could totally be Imperial knights without even a bit of the dark side in them then.
I very much doubt we will ever see it realized in any substantive way but a reformed empire would be so damn cool.
Thrawn says in one of the new canon books that his goal, in the long term is two-fold, and revolves around both fixing the empire, and making sure the Empire is strong enough to deal with the threats the Chiss Asendancy cannot handle themselves.
1) Palp's will not live forever (Thrawn doesn't know about Exogol/Byss and Palp's clones) and Thrawn wants to be in a position to influence his successor towards less destructive ruling methods.
2) Thrawn knows there are bigger threats out there than the Empire, and thinks that he can buy time to find a way to fight them by helping the Empire focus on the Rebels. Because while the enemy is distracted with the Rebel/Empire fight, Thrawn may find a weapon or means to beat the larger threat.