Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

AndrewJTalon

Well-known member
Founder
I thought it was due to Cortez and his 100 bringing their own diseases by contact

Kinda goes against the whole sort of stuff propogated by the Left-Right Dichotomy & Underdog or Oppression Olympics type of stuff

Never knew until at least two or three years ago that the Native American tribes had slaves, even bought black people like Don Cheadle’s ancestors and went to war with one another whilst being allied to various European powers

Question, were those accidental plagues caused by contact with European clothes on purpose or not? Hollywood kinda makes it out to be on purpose last I watched. But I doubt they knew germ theory or whatever so well and had contact with Native Americans before that didn’t result in the latter dying of a disease they weren’t innoculated to

Well the diseases did hurt the Native populations immensely. The Europeans didn't know that, not until later. But they didn't know that at the time of the initial European colonization. In addition, upon initial contact many Europeans also died from the climate and local diseases. The thing was that the Europeans had more population to come to replace the people who lost and better food and technology to improve birthrate. The Natives didn't have that.

In reference to the smallpox infection associated with the Trail of Tears? That's probably historical revisionism. The Cherokee deaths from their forced relocation were primarily due to poor food, disease from exposure, and cold. It was a cruel action, undertaken by President Andrew Jackson due to facing the nullification crisis in South Carolina and not wanting to risk Georgia joining in a potential civil war over the slavery issue. It doesn't excuse this terrible action, nor many other Native removals that were done by force. That said, many other Indian tribes took payment for their lands and were relocated peacefully. So it's not as clear cut as it's often presented.

But let's be honest: Forced removal of native peoples is still awful and it's still a black mark on America's history.
 
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CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Idea: What if Hitler never entered politics and only did art and somehow got successful and the Communists took over Germany?

Would WWII still occur? What would happen to Germany's economy?
 

AndrewJTalon

Well-known member
Founder
Idea: What if Hitler never entered politics and only did art and somehow got successful and the Communists took over Germany?

Would WWII still occur? What would happen to Germany's economy?

More than likely World War II would still happen, but definitely different leadership. It may end in another inconclusive stalemate though, without the fanaticism of the Nazi party to push the conflict so hard.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
More than likely World War II would still happen, but definitely different leadership. It may end in another inconclusive stalemate though, without the fanaticism of the Nazi party to push the conflict so hard.

I guess Japan will have a harder time without allies of their own in Europe

Would the American Economy and others get ruined if most of Europe is still Communist?
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Does anyone know how the world would have changed if Communism or any variants never came to even be conceptualized?
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Here's one: What if the Babbage Engine (seen here) actually was mass produced? Would the world change significantly with primitive computers making their appearance in the 1820s rather than the 1930s? And then becoming more utilized?

Depends, is technological advancement really a straight line? The right scientists/engineers may not pop up this time
 

Quickdraw101

Beware My Power-Green Lantern's Light
A continuation of the Kriegsmarine AU: Let's say that after the initial land and naval based successes, Nazi Germany is fairly confident. The Battle of Britain though is an issue, and as a result the Kriegsmarine is mostly focusing on U-Boat warfare and finishing the Tirpitz.

This does mean they can attempt the full scale version of Exercise Rhine: Rather than just sending Bismarck and Prinz Eugen to commerce raid, they are sending Bismarck, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen, Lutzow, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper, Graf Zeppelin and a few cruisers and destroyers out to try and lure the Royal Navy into an engagement on sea of their choosing: Preferably close enough that land based aircraft from mainland Europe can turn the tide. Peter Strasser in support.

Unfortunately this is a reflection of the Prussian military mindset that pervades Nazi Germany's government: That all military assets are ultimately an extension of the Army rather than branches in of themselves. It's also a reflection of the World War I thinking that still dominates the Kriegsmarine: The effort to draw the Royal Navy into a single decisive engagement, mainly spearheaded by battleships. Even the Graf Zeppelins are designed with a World War I mindset: Small air group, lots of naval guns on a carrier.

They would try this exercise, of course, in the North Sea near Jutland. But the Royal Navy has wised up to this and wouldn't take the bait. They would instead keep the Germans contained, as there isn't anything strategically vital that would force the Royal Navy to get in close enough for land-based German aircraft to hit them. Maybe one or two capital ships might be hit this way, but not enough to change the blockade. You thus get lots of smaller engagements in the North Sea, around Norway, and maybe even in the English Channel, where one German capital ship loss is significantly worse for them than one capital ship loss for the British.

That said, with more ships available, the Kriegsmarine could attempt somewhat more ambitious raiding and strike plans: Especially when the Americans enter the war properly in 1942.

The scenario: Without warning, the Germans launch the mother of all air raids on the British from land-based bombers and attack aircraft. It is the biggest commission of air power seen to date.


And when the smoke clears, the German carriers have left their harbor in Norway. As have the battleships and cruisers.

The Royal Navy scrambles to track the ships, they find Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, they find Tirpitz, they find Prinz Eugen. But the carriers?

They're gone.

Taking inspiration from the Doolittle Raid, the Graf Zeppelin and the Peter Strasser with a few support vessels seeks the Hail Mary of Hail Maries: To strike at Washington DC directly. The limited number of aircraft with small amount of ordnance does little damage, but the point is to send a clear message to the Americans: "We can strike you."

And the sad thing is, thanks to Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Ernest King's hatred of the English to the point he ignored their intelligence reports and warnings for years, the Germans just might be able to pull this off. And if they impressed the Spanish fascist dictator enough with the audacity, they might have been able to find sanctuary in the Azores thanks to Hitler's diplomacy.

An interesting scenario. What are some others with this little AU?
Well at that point America jumps in one year earlier and the full might of the American war machine gets going towards Germany. One thing many people don't realize is that the Pacific Fleet was anaemic compared to the crown jewel that was the Atlantic Fleet. Which means all those carriers and battleships will hunt the Zeppelin and Strasser down with the Royal Navy.

Anyway here's my idea,
October 1st, 1950
General MacArthur gets replaced by General Ridgeway and all allied forces cease pressing towards the Yalu River and proceed to dig in for a Chinese counterattack. It gives us time to prepare for when Chinese forces attempt to kick the UN out of Korea and assuming the line is held until a stalemate is called, modern North Korea ends up much smaller than it is now.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
1819: Jackson's actions in Florida spark a declared war between Spain and the US. Shennagins ensue.
1831: SCOTUS is obeyed trail of tears doesn't occur. The five civilized tribes are intergrared into the US.
1871: US Senate approves treaty of annexation of the Dominican Republic.(missed by one vote otl).
1897: The Teller amendment fails to pass. US annexes Cuba post war.
1912: The GOP nominates Teddy instead of Taft. The vote isn't split and Roosevelt regains the Presidency.
1917: A stable (for Mexico) Mexican government accepts the Zimmerman Tellegram declares war on the US in March.
1917:(continued) The Whites deafeat the Reds in Russia. Preventing the rise of the USSR.
1940: France holds the line and continues fighting the Germans instead of surrender.
1941: Argentina declares official alliance with the axis powers.
1948: The Soviets shoot down relief planes over Germany. Eisenhower responds with a (scenario 1. Publicly popular war 2. Unpopular war) a DOW. WW3 ensues.
1949: Chinag and the KMT defeat Mao and co.
1950: Truman authorizes atomic strikes on China. Leading to war between the US and China(scenario 2 WW3).
1961: Kennedy authorises both airstrikes and Marines during bay of pigs invasion. The US becomes committed to liberating Cuba.
1962: French army manges to defeat Algerian rebels. Algeria becomes intergrated into France proper.
1979: The Shah crushes the Iranian revolution retains power.
1979(continued): US mission to retrieve hostages succeeds.
1991: President Bush decides to depose Saddam
1991(continued): Israel declares war on Iraq in response to missle strikes.
1992: Bush narrowly defeats Clinton.
1996: Alan Keyes defeats Dole and goes on to beat Clinton. Becoming the first black POTUS.
1998: Clinton authorises the killing of bin laden. The mission is successful.
2001: The 4th plane hits the White House.
 

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
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Administrator
Staff Member
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That is an interesting thing to consider. Of course, it may only result in Virginia simply not being a slave state, there's no guarantee Maryland won't allow slavery, and it's damn certain that the West Indies planters who founded South Carolina will allow slavery since they already had it.

Maryland in this period generally followed Virginia (and Maryland only permitted slavery after being effectively invaded by Virginians and taken over). The Carolina's might well permit it for the reasons you state, but with far less political oomph behind the 'peculiar institution' I don't see it lasting very long without the cachet of Virginia.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
What If? The plagues before and after the Europeans came had never hit the Native American tribes? What would the Europeans do knowing that the “New World” has a much larger population that they would have a problem easily mowing down due to said numbers

Would there still be colonies?
 

AndrewJTalon

Well-known member
Founder
1961: While the Beetle Mecha will not be used to service nuclear powered US Air Force bombers, a breakthrough in the technology makes mecha if not inexpensive, at least easier to maintain and mass produce. What roles could giant robots have in the 1960s-1970s US military? And what happens when the technology is copied by other nations?

 
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Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I'd be interested in an AU where the Russian monarchy was never ended, and became something along the lines of the constitutional monarchy that the UK has. I'm curious what it would take to accomplish that and how early it would have to be done to actually be effective. Of course it would mean Nicolas II would have to have to vastly change his viewpoints, because TR was warning him about revolution back during his first term in the early 1900s.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
I'd be interested in an AU where the Russian monarchy was never ended, and became something along the lines of the constitutional monarchy that the UK has. I'm curious what it would take to accomplish that and how early it would have to be done to actually be effective. Of course it would mean Nicolas II would have to have to vastly change his viewpoints, because TR was warning him about revolution back during his first term in the early 1900s.

Would Karl Marx still have a following and attempts at Communist governments elsewhere?
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Of course he would, it's just that these attempts would not have organised backing of the USSR.

I'd be interested in an AU where the Russian monarchy was never ended,

The consequence of an errant shell. During the Battle of the Yellow Sea, Russians get a lucky hit on ammo storage of Togo's flagship and a bit later Nicky has good grace to die early in an accident.
 

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