Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Needed more Richard E Grant. He was clearly air dropped in to be a competent, ruthless though not especially threatening villain when it became apparent no one else could do the job :p

Good actor, could easily have played the Tarkin role, even has that drawn cold expression. He does at least get some things right and makes life harder for the good guys which is more than most of his peers, a man who actually uses his head once or twice.

Perfectly decent secondary villain who really should have been as prominent as Tarkin was. Given he is an obvious copy :p
Since Snoke was such a total dud, it's fun to imagine someone like Pryde in charge of the First Order for the whole trilogy. (On that note: in the drafting process of TFA, they considered Hugo Weaving for the part of a leading antagonist. The specifics never got out, but maybe Hux was originally envisioned as an older, more experienced commander or something.)

A Stormtrooper--or just a general 'peon' serving the new evil force in the universe that awakens to the Force--perhaps even as a early-comer and herald to a widespread...universalization? Or at least a greater spread of active ability to use or 'recognize' Force powers and existence to people would make an interesting central conceit for the story to take as a progression (and actually would make the 'orphan boy using force powers' at the end of the second sequel-movie a more powerful 'teaser' moment, especially if it was combined with everyone else using them somehow). Lucas, to my knowledge, was never of the edgy, 'gray jedi is best jedi and all things must be balance-y like in Eastern philosophy' perspective that cropped up in the EU, and having the grand, overarching somewhat-fakeout of the 'balance' Skywalker is supposed to bring the Force being it's active spread to virtually everyone or a much larger segment of the universe so they can venture forth and be Big Damn Heroes themselves about the galaxy would be...kind of a cool take on things?

At that point it's just me haring-off into creativity-land of course. Point being--there would have been interesting places to go with the Force growing stronger/awakening (and Finn's character in particular with that).
Missed opportunities, seems like.
...But, I suppose it all makes for fanfiction fodder to look on the bright side...Wait...Is that a bright side? :p
Yeah, Lucas was never into the "balance means equal Light and Dark" nonsense. And my choice of words no doubt clarifies my own position! Seems pretty clear to me that darkness is a corruption, and that balance means cleansing the Force of that corruption.

The idea of the agency to do that being spread out actually fits with Lucas's stated opinions, too. He saw Qui-Gon and his adherence to the Living Force as an ideal. (Of course, Qui-Gon has also been called a 'grey Jedi' by some, but there's no doubt that the man was firmly committed to the Light.) So the notion of a new generation of Force-users going out there as knights-errant, doing good in a more decentralised way, without a Council dictating all the doctrine... that might bring the whole story full circle.

Anyway, as far as sort of fan-ficcing this all out goes: I've written up an analysis of what we know (and may reasonably suspect and infer) about Lucas's ideas for the sequels. To some extent, it lines up with what we're talking about here. I may re-post it here, and eventually add a more fan-fic-ish post-script where I take a stab at imagining what such a version of the story could have looked like.

Personally, I hope that one day, they'll give the Lucas outline for the sequels the same treatment they gave his outline for the OT, and turn it into a comic.
 
Since Snoke was such a total dud, it's fun to imagine someone like Pryde in charge of the First Order for the whole trilogy. (On that note: in the drafting process of TFA, they considered Hugo Weaving for the part of a leading antagonist. The specifics never got out, but maybe Hux was originally envisioned as an older, more experienced commander or something.)

Yeah, Lucas was never into the "balance means equal Light and Dark" nonsense. And my choice of words no doubt clarifies my own position! Seems pretty clear to me that darkness is a corruption, and that balance means cleansing the Force of that corruption.

The idea of the agency to do that being spread out actually fits with Lucas's stated opinions, too. He saw Qui-Gon and his adherence to the Living Force as an ideal. (Of course, Qui-Gon has also been called a 'grey Jedi' by some, but there's no doubt that the man was firmly committed to the Light.) So the notion of a new generation of Force-users going out there as knights-errant, doing good in a more decentralised way, without a Council dictating all the doctrine... that might bring the whole story full circle.

Anyway, as far as sort of fan-ficcing this all out goes: I've written up an analysis of what we know (and may reasonably suspect and infer) about Lucas's ideas for the sequels. To some extent, it lines up with what we're talking about here. I may re-post it here, and eventually add a more fan-fic-ish post-script where I take a stab at imagining what such a version of the story could have looked like.

Personally, I hope that one day, they'll give the Lucas outline for the sequels the same treatment they gave his outline for the OT, and turn it into a comic.

The ideas and concepts and perceptions of The Force requires its own thread to be honest. But anways... ramble time since you brought up the Grey Jedi thing.

The excellent game series Knights of the Old Republic definitely defined an entire legion of Star Wars fans into thinking of Light & Dark as far too literal then it seems George Lucas always intended it. The bipolarity of the KOTOR idea of Light v. Dark definitely contrasts with Lucas' Orthodoxy. It was reinforced since then in a lot of the EU stuff (Legends and Disney canon) and Lucas' own scripts about bring "balance" to the Force didn't help that much (like people apparently assumed Lucas implies Balance somehow means killing off most of the Jedi). There was one Star Wars comic which has Mace Windu and Yoda explaing what "Balance" means and one of them lays out a bunch of grains of sugar on a table and two grains of sand and blows all of the sugar away except for two grains of it as one example of balance, and I think Yoda responded by mixing the sugar into some dark drink and making it more creamy brown as the other example. But both examples really violated Lucas' idea of how the Force and the Dark Side worked.

Others on here (and elsewhere obviously) have commented on the above of course and do it far better then I have. But long story short, a lot of Star Wars fans and creators see the Force as Light v. Dark... but George Lucas tended to see it as the Force is inherently good (or positive, pro-Life Force analogue) and there is no Light Side of the Force because it's Light by default... but there is a Dark Side to the Force. Most Jedi therefore who might be considered 'Grey Jedi' or "Potentium view of the Force" or other EU type of labeling aren't mixes of Light and Dark, they're just 'unorthodox' users of The Force according to Lucas' Orthodox view of the Force.
 
The ideas and concepts and perceptions of The Force requires its own thread to be honest. But anways... ramble time since you brought up the Grey Jedi thing.

The excellent game series Knights of the Old Republic definitely defined an entire legion of Star Wars fans into thinking of Light & Dark as far too literal then it seems George Lucas always intended it. The bipolarity of the KOTOR idea of Light v. Dark definitely contrasts with Lucas' Orthodoxy. It was reinforced since then in a lot of the EU stuff (Legends and Disney canon) and Lucas' own scripts about bring "balance" to the Force didn't help that much (like people apparently assumed Lucas implies Balance somehow means killing off most of the Jedi). There was one Star Wars comic which has Mace Windu and Yoda explaing what "Balance" means and one of them lays out a bunch of grains of sugar on a table and two grains of sand and blows all of the sugar away except for two grains of it as one example of balance, and I think Yoda responded by mixing the sugar into some dark drink and making it more creamy brown as the other example. But both examples really violated Lucas' idea of how the Force and the Dark Side worked.

Others on here (and elsewhere obviously) have commented on the above of course and do it far better then I have. But long story short, a lot of Star Wars fans and creators see the Force as Light v. Dark... but George Lucas tended to see it as the Force is inherently good (or positive, pro-Life Force analogue) and there is no Light Side of the Force because it's Light by default... but there is a Dark Side to the Force. Most Jedi therefore who might be considered 'Grey Jedi' or "Potentium view of the Force" or other EU type of labeling aren't mixes of Light and Dark, they're just 'unorthodox' users of The Force according to Lucas' Orthodox view of the Force.
First of all: I love a good, long, rambling post, so always feel free to ramble away at me! :D

With that out of the way, and in something of an anti-climax: yeah, I think we're in agreement! I love KotOR, but obviously it's designed for gaming functionality, so 'Light' and 'Dark' are points on a scale and you basically accrue points in either tally. That's good for a game, but should not be taken too literally. And yes, it's pretty clear that "Light Side" is an EU invention, which may be misleading.

Personally, I've always found a moderate take on the 'Potentium' view to be fairly attractive. The Force is an energy field that unites all living things, and life (and sentience) is in itself a positive, thus the Force is "naturally" the Light. But the Dark exists because living beings aren't always good, so -- basically -- we bring our own darkness into the Force. And some people choose to dwell in that darkness instead of in the light. Finding balance in the Force means letting go of your own dark impulses, and finding... well, enlightenment.

(Other people I know share the view that the Force is the Light, while the Dark is a corruption, but prefer the idea that the Dark has an external source, instead of being created by the potential fo evil within ouselves. I'm not going to make a fight out of that; my view if simply informed by my actual beliefs. I assume it's the same for others!)
 
I’ve always been more a Vergere partisan, a dualistic monist, the the force doesn’t take sides, it encompasses them both. And transcends them.
 
I’ve always been more a Vergere partisan, a dualistic monist, the the force doesn’t take sides, it encompasses them both. And transcends them.
However one interprets the true nature of the Force (or, as I suspect Vergere would tell us, however one choose to approximate the truth in mere words, via a 'lie'), I can certainly say that I love what Stover did with that book.
 
Well as she said to Nom Anor, “Everything I tell you is the truth” ;)

The bulk of SW fans never really understood her true meaning.
Fans? That's one thing, but frickin' Troy Denning missed the point by a country mile, and retro-actively turned her into the exact opposite of what she was supposed to be.

But I'll cut myself off here. If I start ranting about this topic, I'll be going for hours. o_O
 
I like how Diverse the Empire is. AS a fan of the aesthetic, I am glad they aren't just "Angry White guys" but an actual space faring empire using the most numerous race available to form its rank, though discrimination against aliens is fine.

Then again I am a bigger Mando fan and Honor beats all!
 
I do hope... If they do make another Disney series, that it's the Obi Wan idea if it takes place in a period around the same era as the films.

The Disney Aftermath novels already shat a big dump on most post-End or Galactic Civil War stuff but they can still flesh out/ruin the time period between the PT and OT. The best thing is Obi Wan (and any other PT cast members) will still be age appropriate for at least another decade or so! 😁

And Ewan McGregor still seems to want the role. Plus it's not like Hayden is doinig anything... :p
 
I do hope... If they do make another Disney series, that it's the Obi Wan idea if it takes place in a period around the same era as the films.

The Disney Aftermath novels already shat a big dump on most post-End or Galactic Civil War stuff but they can still flesh out/ruin the time period between the PT and OT. The best thing is Obi Wan (and any other PT cast members) will still be age appropriate for at least another decade or so! 😁

And Ewan McGregor still seems to want the role. Plus it's not like Hayden is doinig anything... :p
Blame the horrible author of the the Aftermath...he...God why did Disney hire that SJW idiot.
 
I don't even give one single damn about his politics. He's just such a terrible writer. Everything about those books bothers me. And that was supposed to be the functional equivalent of the Thrawn trilogy! The years following Endor could easily have been extremely exciting and adventurous. Instead... drabbest books ever. And then The Mandalorian has to pick up the slack (and, admittedly, does so).
 
Blame the horrible author of the the Aftermath...he...God why did Disney hire that SJW idiot.

Chuck Wendig..man

Also Rae Sloane might be the single worse depiction of a "strong, independent black woman" ever conceived of in recent fiction..holy balls..


She also prolly has the highest body count of any SW character, in any media.

I like how Diverse the Empire is. AS a fan of the aesthetic, I am glad they aren't just "Angry White guys" but an actual space faring empire using the most numerous race available to form its rank, though discrimination against aliens is fine.

Then again I am a bigger Mando fan and Honor beats all!

"only men" never made sense to me.

No Xenos did...but only men..was retarded.

Edit- the other thing was how Disney portrays Mon mothma...as seemingly benevolent and idealistic when she was ruthless, cynical and capable of shit on par with the worst Imperial Warlord if she felt it necessary. Or Jan Dodanna allegedly being a pacifist when he and his home boy Screed got famous for being experts at planetary sieges and both championed mobile space stations with the expressed purpose of mulching worlds.

And you know..everything they did during the outerrim campaigns.
 
Chuck Wendig..man

Also Rae Sloane might be the single worse depiction of a "strong, independent black woman" ever conceived of in recent fiction..holy balls..


She also prolly has the highest body count of any SW character, in any media.



"only men" never made sense to me.

No Xenos did...but only men..was retarded.
Zhe....fucking ZHE! BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE AN SJW HACK! Gah fuck Chuck Wendig....
The Han Solo book with the Ewok and is more of a fun adventure is better then this garbage!

I know. Having Women and men of various genders and races (Not species) is perfectly normal
 
I like how Diverse the Empire is. AS a fan of the aesthetic, I am glad they aren't just "Angry White guys" but an actual space faring empire using the most numerous race available to form its rank, though discrimination against aliens is fine.

Then again I am a bigger Mando fan and Honor beats all!

"only men" never made sense to me.

No Xenos did...but only men..was retarded.
Zhe....fucking ZHE! BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE AN SJW HACK! Gah fuck Chuck Wendig....
The Han Solo book with the Ewok and is more of a fun adventure is better then this garbage!

I know. Having Women and men of various genders and races (Not species) is perfectly normal

Especially when most of the empire was either run by the middle classes or the old core elite. All of which were big on dual service for both genders.

It never made sense.

Zhe and then the wobbly warbling, wibbling descriptor for a TIE fighter and the whole everyone farts at the wedding bullshit.
 
Chuck Wendig..man

Also Rae Sloane might be the single worse depiction of a "strong, independent black woman" ever conceived of in recent fiction..holy balls..


She also prolly has the highest body count of any SW character, in any media.



"only men" never made sense to me.

No Xenos did...but only men..was retarded.

Edit- the other thing was how Disney portrays Mon mothma...as seemingly benevolent and idealistic when she was ruthless, cynical and capable of shit on par with the worst Imperial Warlord if she felt it necessary. Or Jan Dodanna allegedly being a pacifist when he and his home boy Screed got famous for being experts at planetary sieges and both championed mobile space stations with the expressed purpose of mulching worlds.

And you know..everything they did during the outerrim campaigns.
For now in canon they aren't. Who knows what will be added.
"only men" never made sense to me.

No Xenos did...but only men..was retarded.


Especially when most of the empire was either run by the middle classes or the old core elite. All of which were big on dual service for both genders.

It never made sense.

Zhe and then the wobbly warbling, wibbling descriptor for a TIE fighter and the whole everyone farts at the wedding bullshit.
Women had a harder time getting the higher ranks, but were common in the lower officer ranks.

It never made sense to me either.

I mean....can one not look up how world war 2 planes are written in books? Like COME ON!

and still.. FUCKING ZHE!!!

Wait farting at the wedding?
 
For now in canon they aren't. Who knows what will be added.

Screed and Dodanna?? Naw they're Canon...They even showed up in media, Dodanna in Rogue one.

But apparently as a peace activist..as opposed to the dude who coined the term "Planetary siege platform" with a big ass grin and a thumbs up

Women had a harder time getting the higher ranks, but were common in the lower officer ranks.

And then we got Daala...who...yeah

Wait farting at the wedding?

EbJYp6kWAAAo9C8.png


BEHOLD! AND DESPAIR!
 
Screed and Dodanna?? Naw they're Canon...They even showed up in media, Dodanna in Rogue one.

But apparently as a peace activist..as opposed to the dude who coined the term "Planetary siege platform" with a big ass grin and a thumbs up



And then we got Daala...who...yeah



EbJYp6kWAAAo9C8.png


BEHOLD! AND DESPAIR!
I meant what they did, not that they aren't canon. That was my bad!

I know, Daala is..well we have multiple up above about her as well


FUCKING CHUCK!
 

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