Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

[ATP]

Yes, there was an update, and yes, this is offtopic.

Israel didn't sign the non-proliferation treaty, who is to say they shouldn't? Why should Russia have them either? No one is targeting North Korean or Pakistani nukes anyway.
Even in Poland, try building a bomb at home, and see what kind of government interest you will get.

Especially in Poland.Our owners do not want their property armed.
But,we are taking about 2 states.palestinian authorities could target palestinian with bombs,and jewish authorities could target jews with bombs.
They could not target people from other state.
And,if they could,palestinian could target jews,too.

Either both sides had rights,or none have it.

 

[King Arts]

Yes, there was an update, and yes, this is offtopic.

Israel didn't sign the non-proliferation treaty, who is to say they shouldn't? Why should Russia have them either? No one is targeting North Korean or Pakistani nukes anyway.
Even in Poland, try building a bomb at home, and see what kind of government interest you will get.

The difference is ATP is a polish person a citizen of Poland the Polish government has a right to make laws he must obey, if the same applies to the Palestinians then they should be given Israeli citizenship with all of the rights attached to it.

 

[Cherico]

The difference is ATP is a polish person a citizen of Poland the Polish government has a right to make laws he must obey, if the same applies to the Palestinians then they should be given Israeli citizenship with all of the rights attached to it.

That would be a horrifically bad idea.

The Palastinians have proven time and time again to be bad faith actors of the highest degree fucking over their Egyptian, Jordanian and other sponsors. They have frequently broken deals and when given the chance for self government either turn their areas into incredibly corrupt even by middle eastern standards kleptocracies that steal aid money to benifit themselves or full on terrorist states.

Any other government in world history would have either expelled them in mass or genocided them by now for the shit they pull on a regular basis. Historical Poland didn't put up with this shit there would have been heads on pikes for the shit the Palastinans have pulled.

There is a reason why everyone else in the middle east cant fucking stand them.

 

[49ersfootball]

Yes, there was an update, and yes, this is offtopic.

Israel didn't sign the non-proliferation treaty, who is to say they shouldn't? Why should Russia have them either? No one is targeting North Korean or Pakistani nukes anyway.
Even in Poland, try building a bomb at home, and see what kind of government interest you will get.

Non-Proliferation Treaty ?

 

[49ersfootball]

That would be a horrifically bad idea.

The Palastinians have proven time and time again to be bad faith actors of the highest degree fucking over their Egyptian, Jordanian and other sponsors. They have frequently broken deals and when given the chance for self government either turn their areas into incredibly corrupt even by middle eastern standards kleptocracies that steal aid money to benifit themselves or full on terrorist states.

Any other government in world history would have either expelled them in mass or genocided them by now for the shit they pull on a regular basis. Historical Poland didn't put up with this shit there would have been heads on pikes for the shit the Palastinans have pulled.

There is a reason why everyone else in the middle east cant fucking stand them.

I NEVER liked or trusted the Palestinians from the get-go!

 

[Cherico]

I NEVER liked or trusted the Palestinians from the get-go!

well yeah when the first thing you do as a independent people is ally with fucking hitler your kind of going to be disliked.

(See the grand muffi)

 

[49ersfootball]

well yeah when the first thing you do as a independent people is ally with fucking hitler your kind of going to be disliked.

(See the grand muffi)

Let's not forget about the uppity jackasses in Syria!

 

[King Arts]

That would be a horrifically bad idea.

The Palastinians have proven time and time again to be bad faith actors of the highest degree fucking over their Egyptian, Jordanian and other sponsors. They have frequently broken deals and when given the chance for self government either turn their areas into incredibly corrupt even by middle eastern standards kleptocracies that steal aid money to benifit themselves or full on terrorist states.

Any other government in world history would have either expelled them in mass or genocided them by now for the shit they pull on a regular basis. Historical Poland didn't put up with this shit there would have been heads on pikes for the shit the Palastinans have pulled.

There is a reason why everyone else in the middle east cant fucking stand them.

The Palestinians may or may not have betrayed other Arabs and other Arabs may or may not just use them as a weapon against Israel. But that’s not what we were talking about Marduk was saying that Poland would stop people from building bombs. Tell me should an Israeli obey the Russian laws? I’m saying that Palestinians should obey Palestinians laws, if they obey Israeli laws then they should be Israeli. Military occupation is supposed to be a temporary thing after the war is over. At this point genocide them because ironically the Russians who conquered Ukraine would be nicer than Israel and putting Palestinians in legal limbo. I think Palestine should either be a separate state, the people wiped out, or they should be absorbed by another nation.

 

[Marduk]

The Palestinians may or may not have betrayed other Arabs and other Arabs may or may not just use them as a weapon against Israel. But that’s not what we were talking about Marduk was saying that Poland would stop people from building bombs. Tell me should an Israeli obey the Russian laws? I’m saying that Palestinians should obey Palestinians laws, if they obey Israeli laws then they should be Israeli. Military occupation is supposed to be a temporary thing after the war is over. At this point genocide them because ironically the Russians who conquered Ukraine would be nicer than Israel and putting Palestinians in legal limbo. I think Palestine should either be a separate state, the people wiped out, or they should be absorbed by another nation.

Technically Palestinian laws-as-written don't allow it. In practice it's a failed state that is corrupt and run by terrorists so who cares.
If Palestine is to be considered as a political entity and it allows hosting terrorist attacks on Israel, that's a casus belli, so it's a roundabout way to the same end.

Which is really the core of the kerfuffle from decades and the cause for the legal limbo in question. Israel doesn't want a logic loop where they give Palestine full independence, Palestine imports a bunch of stuff that goes boom and starts shooting it at Israel, Israel has to occupy the place again at significant cost in lives and money to make them stop, back to step one.
And no, the Russian way would not be more humane, it would just get everyone outraged harder and possibly lose Israel its western allies, also Israel doesn't have a Siberia and Far East to send people to.

The second problem is that many have fallen for the fiction of Palestinians being a separate nation, which in terms of allegiance and culture, they are too closely related to Arabs to be considered such. Hence negotiations and diplomacy turn into clusterfucks as all the Arab and even other islamic nations insert themselves and play "not touching you" every time someone tries to put this shit in order.
If you see this as a conflict between Palestinians and Israel rather than Arab world&company and Israel then you are doomed to be unable to make any sense out of it.

How often do you see situations where the side that lost many wars, plays victim all the time, and is dramatically overmatched in military force is the one refusing peace treaties over details restarts hostilities all the time, and demands that the other side gives up some territory at minimum?

Especially in Poland.Our owners do not want their property armed.
But,we are taking about 2 states.palestinian authorities could target palestinian with bombs,and jewish authorities could target jews with bombs.
They could not target people from other state.
And,if they could,palestinian could target jews,too.

Either both sides had rights,or none have it.

If you haven't noticed, Palestinians target Jews with bombs, guns, rockets and even fucking knives all the bloody time.
Palestine has lost the war, and they would rather stay in limbo and make unacceptable to Israel demands than admit it and consider themselves lucky that they lost it to westernized Jews and not to China or Russia.

 

[Cherico]

Technically Palestinian laws-as-written don't allow it. In practice it's a failed state that is corrupt and run by terrorists so who cares.
If Palestine is to be considered as a political entity and it allows hosting terrorist attacks on Israel, that's a casus belli, so it's a roundabout way to the same end.

Which is really the core of the kerfuffle from decades and the cause for the legal limbo in question. Israel doesn't want a logic loop where they give Palestine full independence, Palestine imports a bunch of stuff that goes boom and starts shooting it at Israel, Israel has to occupy the place again at significant cost in lives and money to make them stop, back to step one.
And no, the Russian way would not be more humane, it would just get everyone outraged harder and possibly lose Israel its western allies, also Israel doesn't have a Siberia and Far East to send people to.

The second problem is that many have fallen for the fiction of Palestinians being a separate nation, which in terms of allegiance and culture, they are too closely related to Arabs to be considered such. Hence negotiations and diplomacy turn into clusterfucks as all the Arab and even other islamic nations insert themselves and play "not touching you" every time someone tries to put this shit in order.
If you see this as a conflict between Palestinians and Israel rather than Arab world&company and Israel then you are doomed to be unable to make any sense out of it.

How often do you see situations where the side that lost many wars, plays victim all the time, and is dramatically overmatched in military force is the one refusing peace treaties over details restarts hostilities all the time, and demands that the other side gives up some territory at minimum?

Historically I have seen that happen before.

It normally ends with either the mass eviction of the people in question, their genocide as a people, or a war so horrific that it utterly breaks them as a culture.

 

[Marduk]

Historically I have seen that happen before.

It normally ends with either the mass eviction of the people in question, their genocide as a people, or a war so horrific that it utterly breaks them as a culture.

Exactly. And Israel is not allowed to take any of these options under threat of massive international sanctions.

 

[49ersfootball]

Historically I have seen that happen before.

It normally ends with either the mass eviction of the people in question, their genocide as a people, or a war so horrific that it utterly breaks them as a culture.

The PLO terrorist organization is getting funding & assistance from Syria, Iran, Lebanon, etc.,

 

[King Arts]

Technically Palestinian laws-as-written don't allow it. In practice it's a failed state that is corrupt and run by terrorists so who cares.
If Palestine is to be considered as a political entity and it allows hosting terrorist attacks on Israel, that's a casus belli, so it's a roundabout way to the same end.

Which is really the core of the kerfuffle from decades and the cause for the legal limbo in question. Israel doesn't want a logic loop where they give Palestine full independence, Palestine imports a bunch of stuff that goes boom and starts shooting it at Israel, Israel has to occupy the place again at significant cost in lives and money to make them stop, back to step one.
And no, the Russian way would not be more humane, it would just get everyone outraged harder and possibly lose Israel its western allies, also Israel doesn't have a Siberia and Far East to send people to.

The second problem is that many have fallen for the fiction of Palestinians being a separate nation, which in terms of allegiance and culture, they are too closely related to Arabs to be considered such. Hence negotiations and diplomacy turn into clusterfucks as all the Arab and even other islamic nations insert themselves and play "not touching you" every time someone tries to put this shit in order.
If you see this as a conflict between Palestinians and Israel rather than Arab world&company and Israel then you are doomed to be unable to make any sense out of it.

How often do you see situations where the side that lost many wars, plays victim all the time, and is dramatically overmatched in military force is the one refusing peace treaties over details restarts hostilities all the time, and demands that the other side gives up some territory at minimum?

This second part right here is false. Palestinians ARE a separate nation, they can't be too closely related to Arabs to be a separate nation because there is no Pan Arab nation. Pan Arabism is discredited so while there are Arab nations no one who ever makes this claim can be serious because they don't say what nation they are actually loyal to. If Palestinians don't exist and are just loyal to the Arabs, well then which Arabs Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq? They all are separate nations with separate interests. This isn't like Donetsk in Ukraine where the "seperatists" are actually just Russians and there is no Donestk nationality. About the only thing you are half right on is the Palestinian government such as it is repeatedly acting in bad faith. But it's not like the Israelis are poor innocent and never do anything wrong. No Israel has also done bad things and has oppressed Palestinians, and the ones that have it worst of all are Palestinian Christians who get it from both ends the Jews and the Muslims. Just look at how those in Bethlehem have to deal with it. It's very sad, and many of them don't engage in terrorism.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Sudan and Israel moving closer to normalizing relations, thanks in part to the progress made by the Abraham Accords in the Arab World.

Israel and Sudan will sign an "historic peace agreement" in Washington in a few months' time, Israel's foreign minister announced following talks in Khartoum.

Eli Cohen said the text of the agreement was finalised during his one-day visit to see Sudanese leader Abdel Fattah al-Burhan.

Sudan agreed two years ago to normalise relations with Israel but a deal has never been implemented.

Israel says Sudan peace deal to be signed in Washington

It would normalise relations between Israel and another member of the Arab League.

www.bbc.com

 

[Marduk]

This second part right here is false. Palestinians ARE a separate nation, they can't be too closely related to Arabs to be a separate nation because there is no Pan Arab nation. Pan Arabism is discredited so while there are Arab nations no one who ever makes this claim can be serious because they don't say what nation they are actually loyal to.

If they are a separate nation, why were all the Arabs nearby going to war for them for decades until they got their asses kicked so hard the whole "Palestine project" only suddenly popped up afterwards in the 70's?
I went over this in this very thread already:

Israel - 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

It was this one I remember. https://www.haaretz.com/1.5135332 I'm honestly sympathetic to the idea of Israel pushing the Palestines out of the West Bank completely. Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes. It's a viscous cycle. Palestinian youth are incentivized to kill an Israeli and so the IDF...

www.the-sietch.com

They are part of Arab-islamic civilization that doesn't have well defined separate nations like Europe, which is a source of many of their internal problems.

If Palestinians don't exist and are just loyal to the Arabs, well then which Arabs Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq? They all are separate nations with separate interests.

They are separate states with separate interests. Note how most, if not all of them are ruled by el presidentes, military, sects at odds with the rest or outright kings. The nations...
No one fucking asks them and they have their own problems anyway, they do hate Jews for sure though, that's one of few things uniting them as Arabs.

This isn't like Donetsk in Ukraine where the "seperatists" are actually just Russians and there is no Donestk nationality.

That's exactly how it is, except after few decades of far better PR effort.

Have a PLO faction leader explain it to you clearly:

Zuheir Mohse, high ranking PLO official, 1977:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism."

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

About the only thing you are half right on is the Palestinian government such as it is repeatedly acting in bad faith. But it's not like the Israelis are poor innocent and never do anything wrong. No Israel has also done bad things and has oppressed Palestinians, and the ones that have it worst of all are Palestinian Christians who get it from both ends the Jews and the Muslims. Just look at how those in Bethlehem have to deal with it. It's very sad, and many of them don't engage in terrorism.

They either oppress Palestinians, surrender to Palestinians (in big or small steps), or fight Palestinians, they have no other options. Which would you have them choose?

Also speaking of Palestinian Christians, some are just larping leftists with a "liberation theology" trying to fool people like you for their cause.

Palestinian Christians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[King Arts]

If they are a separate nation, why were all the Arabs nearby going to war for them for decades until they got their asses kicked so hard the whole "Palestine project" only suddenly popped up afterwards in the 70's?
I went over this in this very thread already:

Israel - 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

It was this one I remember. https://www.haaretz.com/1.5135332 I'm honestly sympathetic to the idea of Israel pushing the Palestines out of the West Bank completely. Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes. It's a viscous cycle. Palestinian youth are incentivized to kill an Israeli and so the IDF...

www.the-sietch.com

They are part of Arab-islamic civilization that doesn't have well defined separate nations like Europe, which is a source of many of their internal problems.


They are separate states with separate interests. Note how most, if not all of them are ruled by el presidentes, military, sects at odds with the rest or outright kings. The nations...
No one fucking asks them and they have their own problems anyway, they do hate Jews for sure though, that's one of few things uniting them as Arabs.


That's exactly how it is, except after few decades of far better PR effort.

Have a PLO faction leader explain it to you clearly:

Zuheir Mohse, high ranking PLO official, 1977:





They either oppress Palestinians, surrender to Palestinians (in big or small steps), or fight Palestinians, they have no other options. Which would you have them choose?

Also speaking of Palestinian Christians, some are just larping leftists with a "liberation theology" trying to fool people like you for their cause.

Palestinian Christians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Larping leftests? You can’t just dismiss every Christian group that doesn’t suck off neoconservatives as leftists.

 

[Marduk]

Larping leftests? You can’t just dismiss every Christian group that doesn’t suck off neoconservatives as leftists.

Not every, just those that sound like leftists and reference "liberation theology", you know, just like the religious marxists in South America.

 

[King Arts]

Not every, just those that sound like leftists and reference "liberation theology", you know, just like the religious marxists in South America.

How do they sound like leftists because they don’t want a foreign people with a foreign religion to rule them?

 

[Marduk]

How do they sound like leftists because they don’t want a foreign people with a foreign religion to rule them?

In that they would be rather ruled by Muslims than capitalist kinda westerners, you know, just like the leftist shitlibs in Europe, use marxist terms and rhetoric, and support socialism.
"Liberation theologies" are basically commies that give lip service to Christianity and may or may not actually believe in a heavily reinterpreted (and according to many others, heretical as fuck due to it) version of Christianity.

 

[King Arts]

In that they would be rather ruled by Muslims than capitalist kinda westerners, you know, just like the leftist shitlibs in Europe, use marxist terms and rhetoric, and support socialism.
"Liberation theologies" are basically commies that give lip service to Christianity and may or may not actually believe in a heavily reinterpreted (and according to many others, heretical as fuck due to it) version of Christianity.

Yes the place with the oldest community of christians in the world is giving lip service to it.
No you just use liberation theology as a smoke screen whenever Christian’s call out shit on the establishment right. It’s just like the Russians yelling Nazi in Ukraine it’s a smokescreen that you don’t even have proof of. First of all non every Christian in Palestine/Israel is Catholic there is a decent orthodox community and a few others. Liberation theology is a Catholic heresy supposedly. And also communism isn’t even a popular ideology in that part of the world Islamist are and Christians are obviously not Islamists.

Oh and kinda westerners? What? Who gives a shit why should I favor the Jew over the Muslim? Neither is a coreligionist you even told me you yourself are not religious you just use this to further your own goals you don’t care about faith you just support neocons and their goals. Neocons support Israel then you do as well.