Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

Wasn't a part of the 2008 housing crisis also having to do with lending standards being relaxed for minorities in order to increase minority home ownership? Steve Sailer wrote about how this was done as a part of the George W. Bush's administration's attempts to appeal more to minorities.
Its literally the one and only cause of it. Banks were forced to give loans to people who can't pay the loans, and then the people didn't pay the loans, and because it is housign it is very hard to collect collateral on the loans, so the bankes ended up missing enormous amounts of money.
 
So, basically, a Frankensteinian mishmash of public-private arrangements and regulatory, subsidy-heavy bloat that buoys the big banks and super rich, which is true to the larger status quo in America today?
That's the basic nature of modernity from a financial-economic perspective. You can see the antecedents right from the start, with frauds like Jacques Necker in France, and advocates for public debt and banking power like Alexander Hamilton in the Anglophone world. (And those are just some notable examples.)

In any case, I'm wondering what you think that means for future bubbles, though I suppose that's best reserved for a continuation of our pre-existing private conversations.
Simply put: things will get worse. Modern public finance is a big soap bubble. Every crash is a possibility for it to pop, and -- my analogy is kind of crude, I admit -- the government responds by preventing it by pumping more air into the bubble.

Tax more, borrow more, print more. That's the policy. It cannot possibly end well. Every time this strategy is employed to stave off the final 'pop' where the bubble bursts completely... every damn time... it pushes the calamity further into the future but also makes it worse.

The final consequence looks like the Weimar Republic on a global scale. We're already a good way there.

The result of that looks a lot like what came after the Weimar Republic.

Also on a global scale.

Wasn't a part of the 2008 housing crisis also having to do with lending standards being relaxed for minorities in order to increase minority home ownership? Steve Sailer wrote about how this was done as a part of the George W. Bush's administration's attempts to appeal more to minorities.
Its literally the one and only cause of it. Banks were forced to give loans to people who can't pay the loans, and then the people didn't pay the loans, and because it is housign it is very hard to collect collateral on the loans, so the bankes ended up missing enormous amounts of money.
Carter's legislation forcing banks to extend mortgages to poor people who couldn't realistically pay them back takes a far greater share of the blame. Later Clinton-era and Bush-era additions along that theme are just margin notes, really. It's also not true that this was the only problem. That tends to be the conservative claim, much as "It was Reagan's deregulation of the banks!" is the progressive claim. Neither claim is actually false. Let me sketch out the key factors here:

-- We'll leave aside the fundamental rot of the entire modern financial/monetary/economic system, and thus by-pass the Federal Reserve and its various horrible actions. Instead, we'll zoom in a bit more, and focus on the Banking Act of 1933, more commonly known as the "Glass-Steagall Act". Progressive tout this as if it was a sacrosanct piece of miracle work. That's bullshit. It was the cause of all the problems. It was also partially visionary. Its banking regulation was actually pretty damn good, and although libertarians dislike it, on principle I can't really fault the practicality. I've known too many bankers to cry when they get slapped with regulation, the bastards. The problem is that Glass-Steagall also introduced a federal system of bank deposit insurance. Which means that if banks go under, the government (meaning the public) is on the hook for all the losses.

-- Much later, Carter comes along, and decides that it's "social" if people can just get mortgages, even if they can't realistically pay them. He champions legislation that compels banks to dramatically lower their standards. This leads to a lot of rotten mortgages building up, just waiting for a big economic downturn, at which point all those poor up-to-the-gills-in-debt people default en masse, and it becomes a foreclosure bonanza.

-- Not much later, Reagan kills a good chunk of he Glass-Steagall regulations, allowing banks to combine savings and investments, which leads to really inventive constructions for mortgages... which are way too unsafe to be financially responsible.

-- Another bit later, Clinton kills the rest of the banking regulations, because he's a third way post-ideological progressive (whatever that means), so it's somehow perfectly possible to combine "being socially engaged" with "catering to the whims of the big banks". (I think "it's the economy, stupid" must have referred to what he intended to ruin.) Anyway, everything that became possible thanks to Reagan became even worse. Much worse. Subprimes, baby!

-- Then, Bush actually expanded a bit on Carter's "let poor people have houses" idea, partially to show that he cared ("compassionate conservatism" or whatever) and partially because it's a neo-con idée-fixe that everyone must own a home (much as it is a progressive idée-fixe that everyone must go to college, and equally ludicrous).

-- This all came together in the perfect storm, and you know how that ended. It became disastrous because the mortgages were rotten, the banks threatened to topple, and the federal system of bank deposit insurance meant that the treasury was on the hook for all of it. Which is why the bullshit myth "too big to fail" was born.

These were the causes of the crisis. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, I will take no questions.
 
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That's the basic nature of modernity from a financial-economic perspective. You can see the antecedents right from the start, with frauds like Jacques Necker in France, and advocates for public debt and banking power like Alexander Hamilton in the Anglophone world. (And those are just some notable examples.)


Simply put: things will get worse. Modern public finance is a big soap bubble. Every crash is a possibility for it to pop, and -- my analogy is kind of crude, I admit -- the government responds by preventing it by pumping more air into the bubble.

Tax more, borrow more, print more. That's the policy. It cannot possibly end well. Every time this strategy is employed to stave off the final 'pop' where the bubble bursts completely... every damn time... it pushes the calamity further into the future but also makes it worse.

The final consequence looks like the Weimar Republic on a global scale. We're already a good way there.

The result of that looks a lot like what came after the Weimar Republic.

Also on a global scale.



Carter's legislation forcing banks to extend mortgages to poor people who couldn't realistically pay them back takes a far greater share of the blame. Later Clinton-era and Bush-era additions along that theme are just margin notes, really. It's also not true that this was the only problem. That tends to be the conservative claim, much as "It was Reagan's deregulation of the banks!" is the progressive claim. Neither claim is actually false. Let me sketch out the key factors here:

-- We'll leave aside the fundamental rot of the entire modern financial/monetary/economic system, and thus by-pass the Federal Reserve and its various horrible actions. Instead, we'll zoom in a bit more, and focus on the Banking Act of 1933, more commonly known as the "Glass-Steagall Act". Progressive tout this as if it was a sacrosanct piece of miracle work. That's bullshit. It was the cause of all the problems. It was also partially visionary. Its banking regulation was actually pretty damn good, and although libertarians dislike it, on principle I can't really fault the practicality. I've known too many bankers to cry when they get slapped with regulation, the bastards. The problem is that Glass-Steagall also introduced a federal system of bank deposit insurance. Which means that if banks go under, the government (meaning the public) is on the hook for all the losses.

-- Much later, Carter comes along, and decides that it's "social" if people can just get mortgages, even if they can't realistically pay them. He champions legislation that compels banks to dramatically lower their standards. This leads to a lot of rotten mortgages building up, just waiting for a big economic downturn, at which point all those poor up-to-the-gills-in-debt people default en masse, and it becomes a foreclosure bonanza.

-- Not much later, Reagan kills a good chunk of he Glass-Steagall regulations, allowing banks to combine savings and investments, which leads to really inventive constructions for mortgages... which are way too unsafe to be financially responsible.

-- Another bit later, Clinton kills the rest of the banking regulations, because he's a third way post-ideological progressive (whatever that means), so it's somehow perfectly possible to combine "being socially engaged" with "catering to the whims of the big banks". (I think "it's the economy, stupid" must have referred to what he intended to ruin.) Anyway, everything that became possible thanks to Reagan became even worse. Much worse. Subprimes, baby!

-- Then, Bush actually expanded a bit on Carter's "let poor people have houses" idea, partially to show that he cared ("compassionate conservatism" or whatever) and partially because it's a neo-con idée-fixe that everyone must own a home (much as it is a progressive idée-fixe that everyone must go to college, and equally ludicrous).

-- This all came together in the perfect storm, and you know how that ended. It became disastrous because the mortgages were rotten, the banks threatened to topple, and the federal system of bank deposit insurance meant that the treasury was on the hook for all of it. Which is why the bullshit myth "too big to fail" was born.

These were the causes of the crisis. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, I will take no questions.

Merci beaucoup for this very informative lecture, Skallagrim! :)

Anyway, I've got an off-topic question for you: What do you foresee happening to Italy in a TL where the CPs win WWI?
 
That's the basic nature of modernity from a financial-economic perspective. You can see the antecedents right from the start, with frauds like Jacques Necker in France, and advocates for public debt and banking power like Alexander Hamilton in the Anglophone world. (And those are just some notable examples.)


Simply put: things will get worse. Modern public finance is a big soap bubble. Every crash is a possibility for it to pop, and -- my analogy is kind of crude, I admit -- the government responds by preventing it by pumping more air into the bubble.

Tax more, borrow more, print more. That's the policy. It cannot possibly end well. Every time this strategy is employed to stave off the final 'pop' where the bubble bursts completely... every damn time... it pushes the calamity further into the future but also makes it worse.

The final consequence looks like the Weimar Republic on a global scale. We're already a good way there.

The result of that looks a lot like what came after the Weimar Republic.

Also on a global scale.



Carter's legislation forcing banks to extend mortgages to poor people who couldn't realistically pay them back takes a far greater share of the blame. Later Clinton-era and Bush-era additions along that theme are just margin notes, really. It's also not true that this was the only problem. That tends to be the conservative claim, much as "It was Reagan's deregulation of the banks!" is the progressive claim. Neither claim is actually false. Let me sketch out the key factors here:

-- We'll leave aside the fundamental rot of the entire modern financial/monetary/economic system, and thus by-pass the Federal Reserve and its various horrible actions. Instead, we'll zoom in a bit more, and focus on the Banking Act of 1933, more commonly known as the "Glass-Steagall Act". Progressive tout this as if it was a sacrosanct piece of miracle work. That's bullshit. It was the cause of all the problems. It was also partially visionary. Its banking regulation was actually pretty damn good, and although libertarians dislike it, on principle I can't really fault the practicality. I've known too many bankers to cry when they get slapped with regulation, the bastards. The problem is that Glass-Steagall also introduced a federal system of bank deposit insurance. Which means that if banks go under, the government (meaning the public) is on the hook for all the losses.

-- Much later, Carter comes along, and decides that it's "social" if people can just get mortgages, even if they can't realistically pay them. He champions legislation that compels banks to dramatically lower their standards. This leads to a lot of rotten mortgages building up, just waiting for a big economic downturn, at which point all those poor up-to-the-gills-in-debt people default en masse, and it becomes a foreclosure bonanza.

-- Not much later, Reagan kills a good chunk of he Glass-Steagall regulations, allowing banks to combine savings and investments, which leads to really inventive constructions for mortgages... which are way too unsafe to be financially responsible.

-- Another bit later, Clinton kills the rest of the banking regulations, because he's a third way post-ideological progressive (whatever that means), so it's somehow perfectly possible to combine "being socially engaged" with "catering to the whims of the big banks". (I think "it's the economy, stupid" must have referred to what he intended to ruin.) Anyway, everything that became possible thanks to Reagan became even worse. Much worse. Subprimes, baby!

-- Then, Bush actually expanded a bit on Carter's "let poor people have houses" idea, partially to show that he cared ("compassionate conservatism" or whatever) and partially because it's a neo-con idée-fixe that everyone must own a home (much as it is a progressive idée-fixe that everyone must go to college, and equally ludicrous).

-- This all came together in the perfect storm, and you know how that ended. It became disastrous because the mortgages were rotten, the banks threatened to topple, and the federal system of bank deposit insurance meant that the treasury was on the hook for all of it. Which is why the bullshit myth "too big to fail" was born.

These were the causes of the crisis. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, I will take no questions.

Okay, well, thanks for clarifying.

Besides the real Catch 22 posed here, I suppose that adds another significant "what-if" to the list of questions and reservations I posted in our conversation. If the endgame you see coming does happen, I hope enough of them go right to guarantee that there's something left for someone to inherit. (Although, given the unprecedented destruction modern weapons can wreck, I fear I may be wrong there.)

Anyhow: 'Slavic HRE Equivalent'.
 
Anyhow: 'Slavic HRE Equivalent'.

The Eurasian Union if Ukraine ever actually joined it but subsequently resisted deeper levels of integration within it?

Hilariously, about the same as happened in OTL.

Austria-Hungary didn't want more Italians. No, not even to get Venice back.

The overthrow of the Italian monarchy? The rise of Mussolini to power under an Italian monarch, as in real life?
 
Sorry, I probably should've written Pan-Slavic there, instead.

Which is to say, an HRE-style entity that's similar in size and territorial claims to the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. In which case, I suppose you'd need a PoD much further back for that.

I gave you my own answer for this. Would it work or would it be too recent?
 
I gave you my own answer for this. Would it work or would it be too recent?

Eh, a few centuries too late for my liking. Napoleon and his legacy of centralized nation-states is still too well-entrenched in your scenario, after all! ;)
 
'Nazified WW1 Germany'.

Which is to say, the German Empire develops pretty much the same goals and outlook as the Third Reich leading up to World War I. Probably with Wilhelm II as its Hitler and General Ludendorff as its Himmler, though I suppose we can only go so far with having the Kaiser and his generals become clear equivalents to their World War II counterparts. (I can't think of anyone who'd make a good Goebbels, for instance, but maybe that's just me.)
 
'Nazified WW1 Germany'.

Which is to say, the German Empire develops pretty much the same goals and outlook as the Third Reich leading up to World War I. Probably with Wilhelm II as its Hitler and General Ludendorff as its Himmler, though I suppose we can only go so far with having the Kaiser and his generals become clear equivalents to their World War II counterparts. (I can't think of anyone who'd make a good Goebbels, for instance, but maybe that's just me.)

Not as much of a stretch once you think about it considering that Wilhelm II fantasized about gassing Jews en masse in a worldwide pogrom in a 1919 letter of his to General August von Mackensen. That said, though, he's unlikely to actually enact his fantasies, unlike Hitler, but if the Bolsheviks still come to power in Russia while Germany somehow manages to win WWI in the West in 1918, then there could be a giant version of the Red Scare in Germany afterwards and a subsequent German White Terror in response to this. If Germany subsequently overthrows the Bolsheviks in Russia, then Germany could subsequently export its White Terror over to Russia as well.
 
Not as much of a stretch once you think about it considering that Wilhelm II fantasized about gassing Jews en masse in a worldwide pogrom in a 1919 letter of his to General August von Mackensen. That said, though, he's unlikely to actually enact his fantasies, unlike Hitler, but if the Bolsheviks still come to power in Russia while Germany somehow manages to win WWI in the West in 1918, then there could be a giant version of the Red Scare in Germany afterwards and a subsequent German White Terror in response to this. If Germany subsequently overthrows the Bolsheviks in Russia, then Germany could subsequently export its White Terror over to Russia as well.

Huh, interesting.

I believe I saw you link to an outburst where Wilhelm expressed precisely that, but I don't suppose you could please share it again? Ludendorff strikes me as the kind of guy who'd much more fervently support measures to enact a "Great Pogrom" early, as well as preside over a general White Terror that takes on an extremely anti-Semitic, Slavophobic turn. (Curious as to what a young, Austria-born German soldier with a goofy mustache would think, considering that's more or less what he'd have perpetrated in another life and all.) :unsure:

Speaking of Bolsheviks, what happens to Lenin here? Remember that the Germans brought him back to Petrograd by train with massive funds to start his revolution, and not only does he need to survive ATL World War I into order to make his mark, he also needs some way of returning to Russia, too. Or, are we assuming some equivalent takes his place if he's taken out early, whether by unexpected gunfire or something else?
 
Huh, interesting.

I believe I saw you link to an outburst where Wilhelm expressed precisely that, but I don't suppose you could please share it again? Ludendorff strikes me as the kind of guy who'd much more fervently support measures to enact a "Great Pogrom" early, as well as preside over a general White Terror that takes on an extremely anti-Semitic, Slavophobic turn. (Curious as to what a young, Austria-born German soldier with a goofy mustache would think, considering that's more or less what he'd have perpetrated in another life and all.) :unsure:

Speaking of Bolsheviks, what happens to Lenin here? Remember that the Germans brought him back to Petrograd by train with massive funds to start his revolution, and not only does he need to survive ATL World War I into order to make his mark, he also needs some way of returning to Russia, too. Or, are we assuming some equivalent takes his place if he's taken out early, whether by unexpected gunfire or something else?

Here's the source for Kaiser Bill wanting to gas the Jews in 1919:


Also, Lenin still launches his revolution in late 1917 here. It's just that after the Germans win WWI in the West in 1918 in this TL, they subsequently decide to invade Russia and overthrow the Bolsheviks, possibly in 1919. In such a scenario, Lenin is either captured or executed or manages to flee somewhere else. Not sure who would actually be willing to accept him as a refugee, to be honest. Maybe some Latin American country? Or perhaps Turkey considering that he helped them get their lost Caucasian territories back?
 
@Zyobot @History Learner @Skallagrim @stevep @sillygoose How do you realistically make Eastern Europe (either including or excluding Russia) a major hub for Mizrahi Jewish immigration in a TL where Israel is never actually recreated in the modern era?
You don't since the Eastern Europeans didn't even like the Ashkenazi that already lived there and were trying to get them to immigrate to Palestine. Poland in fact had cut a deal with Lehi to train them in guerrilla warfare so they could fight the British and drive them out of Palestine so that unlimited Jewish immigration would be allowed again after the 1936 Arab revolt resulted in the British cutting off immigration.

Others received military training from instructors of the Polish Armed Forces in 1938–1939. This training was conducted in Trochenbrod (Zofiówka) in Wołyń Voivodeship, Podębin near Łódź, and the forests around Andrychów. They were taught how to use explosives. One of them reported later: "Poles treated terrorism as a science. We have mastered mathematical principles of demolishing constructions made of concrete, iron, wood, bricks and dirt."[43]

Stern spent the rest of the 1930s traveling back and forth to Eastern Europe to organize revolutionary cells in Poland and promote immigration of Jews to Palestine in defiance of British restrictions (this was therefore known as "illegal immigration").

Stern developed a plan to train 40,000 young Jews to sail for Palestine and take over the country from the British colonial authorities. He succeeded in enlisting the Polish government in this effort. The Poles began training Irgun members and arms were set aside, but then Germany invaded Poland and began the Second World War. This ended the training, and immigration routes were cut off.[8] Stern was in Palestine at the time and was arrested the same night the war began. He was incarcerated together with the entire High Command of the Irgun in the Jerusalem Central Prison and Sarafand Detention Camp.

But would the Mizrahi even emigrate without Israel even existing? From what I've read it is the aftermath of the creation of Israel that led to the expulsion of Jews in the Middle East who had previously being integrated into local societies.

 
You don't since the Eastern Europeans didn't even like the Ashkenazi that already lived there and were trying to get them to immigrate to Palestine. Poland in fact had cut a deal with Lehi to train them in guerrilla warfare so they could fight the British and drive them out of Palestine so that unlimited Jewish immigration would be allowed again after the 1936 Arab revolt resulted in the British cutting off immigration.





But would the Mizrahi even emigrate without Israel even existing? From what I've read it is the aftermath of the creation of Israel that led to the expulsion of Jews in the Middle East who had previously being integrated into local societies.


There is one way to get a lot of Mizrahim to still emigrate: Specifically have either radical Islamists or brutal authoritarian regimes come to power in the Muslim world. This is also why a lot of the Middle East's Christians have emigrated in recent years and decades, for instance:



 
There is one way to get a lot of Mizrahim to still emigrate: Specifically have either radical Islamists or brutal authoritarian regimes come to power in the Muslim world. This is also why a lot of the Middle East's Christians have emigrated in recent years and decades, for instance:



You'd have to get rid of the British colonial governments first and that attempt in 1936 failed. In fact all such attempts failed until after WW2 and the British were broke.
 
You'd have to get rid of the British colonial governments first and that attempt in 1936 failed. In fact all such attempts failed until after WW2 and the British were broke.

When do you think that decolonization happens without WWII? Egypt got its own independence in 1922, for instance. Iraq in 1932 if I recall correctly.
 
When do you think that decolonization happens without WWII? Egypt got its own independence in 1922, for instance. Iraq in 1932 if I recall correctly.
No, they were puppet regimes that at least in Iraq the people tried to overthrow in 1941, but the British reinstalled their puppet regime with British forces.
I'm not sure when decolonization would happen without WW2, perhaps never.
The actual LoN mandate never specified an end date and was left deliberately vague:
 

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