Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

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Skallagrim said:
Gaul did have several leaders who joined Caesar and then tried to betray him later. He... wasn't subtle in the way he responded to that.

Generally speaking, the Gallic tribes were adopted as amici ("friends", meaning vassals) and disloyalty was brutally punished. Over time, many of these tribes were Romanised and fully absorbed into (what was by then) the Empire. This process of assimilation was indeed potent (we may say: utterly complete, since I don't see many Gauls around!) and did indeed happen quite quickly. But "quite quickly", in this context, means a few generations.

Arminius, on the other hand, was a German from a freshly (quasi-)subdued land where the Romans arrived during his life-time, and who was granted citizenship later on. That, I think, was a bit too quick. With the benefit of hindsight, the Romans would probably agree! ;)
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One minor nitpick to an otherwise very good post here: Don't present-day French people identify as the descendants of Gauls?
 
Skallagrim said:
many of these tribes were Romanised and fully absorbed into (what was by then) the Empire.
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This reminds me how fast in the Commowealth, the noble elites of Lithuania and Ruthenia became polonized, barely three generations after the Union they were Poles in full word, and some of them even faster.
This reminds me, why Cossacks are no freedom fighters and no compromise should be made, only crushed.
No settlement was to be made, only to crush them.
And most importantly, it all depends on how much a given culture impresses the immigrants and the conquered, and whether actions are taken that help with that. (The Union of Brest creating the Uniate Church was one of the mistakes we made, we should have not messed around with any such thing, but simply replaced Orthodoxy with Catholicism, not created a Catholicism with the appearance of Orthodoxy. This is how the vast multitude of Polish colonists who came to settle the ravaged Ruthenia were Russified by the Union of Brest instead of Polonizing those lands).
 
WolfBear said:
One minor nitpick to an otherwise very good post here: Don't present-day French people identify as the descendants of Gauls?
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They use the term at times, but they speak a language derived from Latin, have political structures that were in various ways based on the example of Rome, and even practice a religion that was introduced into Europe via the eventual patronage of Rome.

An amount of genetic substrate, albeit diluted, is no doubt still there in the populace -- but in a cultural sense, Gaul has long ceased to exist.
 
Skallagrim said:
They use the term at times, but they speak a language derived from Latin, have political structures that were in various ways based on the example of Rome, and even practice a religion that was introduced into Europe via the eventual patronage of Rome.

An amount of genetic substrate, albeit diluted, is no doubt still there in the populace -- but in a cultural sense, Gaul has long ceased to exist.
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Were the original Gauls a Germanic people?
 
WolfBear said:
One minor nitpick to an otherwise very good post here: Don't present-day French people identify as the descendants of Gauls?
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They refer to themselves as Gauls, but this is a founding myth. It's like the Poles saying they are Sarmatians, there are some indications that the idea that the Poles or at least the ruling stratum or nobility had something to do with the Sarmatians. (It is about coats of arms whose symbols resemble those used by nomads rather than western knighthoods, and they had to get it from somewhere).
 
Skallagrim said:
Ah, yes, Roman-educated Arminius, who was made a citizen and "attained the dignity of equestrian rank". And then betrayed the Romans who had made his career. That Arminius.
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"American Judeo Bolshevists lie about the glorious past of our reich. they lie, saying that they were in mudhuts, subjected by weak, effemenate, Italiacs, as if such low stock creatures could beat out such strong handed men. What we in the Reich archeaolgy ministry have in fact found that they commanded a glorious civilization, and in fact, agustus was a Germanic himself. wise chiefs communed with Aryan Ailens, who gave them there wise technology. One day the glorious Reich will rise into the skies and conquer the Galaxy, along side Aryan Bretheren..."

About what Id expect the Germans to play with.

Of course, I dont think theyd be making these statments in the modern day, because, at the end of the day, unlike the Norks, they will launch. It is implicit to there entire charecter and ideology unfortunately. They will cannibalize and once they cant rinse more blood out of Europe, they will try and go to say the Middle East or Africa, and when America says no, they will keep going right on. In the end, the Nukes are launched and we are all living in the ruins. Or dead.
 
Earl said:
"American Judeo Bolshevists lie about the glorious past of our reich. they lie, saying that they were in mudhuts, subjected by weak, effemenate, Italiacs, as if such low stock creatures could beat out such strong handed men. What we in the Reich archeaolgy ministry have in fact found that they commanded a glorious civilization, and in fact, agustus was a Germanic himself. wise chiefs communed with Aryan Ailens, who gave them there wise technology. One day the glorious Reich will rise into the skies and conquer the Galaxy, along side Aryan Bretheren..."

About what Id expect the Germans to play with.

Of course, I dont think theyd be making these statments in the modern day, because, at the end of the day, unlike the Norks, they will launch. It is implicit to there entire charecter and ideology unfortunately. They will cannibalize and once they cant rinse more blood out of Europe, they will try and go to say the Middle East or Africa, and when America says no, they will keep going right on. In the end, the Nukes are launched and we are all living in the ruins. Or dead.
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They will launch what? Nukes?
 
WolfBear said:
Ah, interesting. So, the Gauls were similar to the Irish, Cornish, and Scottish then, eh?
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And the Bretons, these are the last Celts in France, they only survived because Brittany is a difficult region to cross hence it was easier than others to survive and remain more Celtic. (Although this is very conventional, since the Great French Revolution they did everything to become French, as for example the Occitan were mostly denationalized and their miserable remnants survived to this day because they are other descendants of Gaulo-Roman.)
Anyway, this is easy to see just by looking at Charlemagne's state and how it expanded. And at his predecessors.
It's easy to see that northeastern France is home to the West Franks, the ancestors of the French who conquered the rest.
 
WolfBear said:
Ah, interesting. So, the Gauls were similar to the Irish, Cornish, and Scottish then, eh?
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Yes, they were related. The Celtic peoples originated in the region of what is now Southern Germany, and then they expanded considerably.

17-Celtic-Expansion-3rd-century-BC.jpg


They didn't really get a foot-hold in Northern Germany, because the nascent Germanic peoples were expanding there. So they moved Easth instead, into the Austria/Czechia region, and then expanded further, as depicted on the map. They invaded Italy and Greece repeatedly, and - as you can see -- some of their raiding tribes ended up settling in Anatolia!

Rome pretty much exterminated continental Celtic culture, and the mounting pressure of the Germanic peoples (who were entering their own "turn" in the expansionist cycle, so to speak) did the rest. When Caesar arrived in Gaul, the Germanic king Ariovistus had crossed the Rhine already, and had sudued swathes of Gaul. (In fact, Ariovistus was himself a "friend of Rome"... having been sponsored by Caesar himself! But they ended up with conflicting interests, and Caesar drove the Germanic tribes back and made the Rhine the general border between Gallic and Germanic lands. This was to remain so until the Roman Empire began to crumble. Then the Germans finally crossed the Rhine in truly vast numbers. By that time, "Gaul" no longer existed culturally, and the migrating Germans adopted Latin, not some Gallic language. Because Gallic was no longer spoken! And so the French were created: Romanised Germans, mixed with previously Romanised Celts.)
 
Well, I have this idea.
AHC: The Piasts never die out on the Polish throne. Casimir III has a son. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume it's from his first marriage with Aldona, a Lithuanian princess who was Jagiello's aunt...
What does this change of course, other than the fact that the PLC may never come into existence? The Piasts, let's put it nicely, are not the kind of people who let power get out of their hands. Poland under their rule was a very centralized country, already in the times of the principality an average Polish ruler from this dynasty had much more possibilities to act than the kings theoretically higher in the hierarchy. And due to the fact that they were the founders of Poland they necessarily had much more authority than the Jagiellonians, Andegawenes, Vasa, Wettins and other elected kings ever had.
How much would a centralized Poland change the fate of Europe? Would it become a kind of France of the East? (Because the Piasts would not have stopped their efforts to bring Silesia back to Poland, they would still be fighting with Brangerburg, and they would still be trying to seize Pomerania, not only Gdansk but also the West).
Although probably the eastern direction would also take place, after all Casimir III inherited the title of King of Ruthenia, and his son with Aldona would have some claim to the throne of Lithuania.
 
Earl said:
"American Judeo Bolshevists lie about the glorious past of our reich. they lie, saying that they were in mudhuts, subjected by weak, effemenate, Italiacs, as if such low stock creatures could beat out such strong handed men. What we in the Reich archeaolgy ministry have in fact found that they commanded a glorious civilization, and in fact, agustus was a Germanic himself. wise chiefs communed with Aryan Ailens, who gave them there wise technology. One day the glorious Reich will rise into the skies and conquer the Galaxy, along side Aryan Bretheren..."

About what Id expect the Germans to play with.
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I too remember that particularly cursed TNO path.


We wuzzing dark mechanicus nazis.
 
Skallagrim said:
Yes, they were related. The Celtic peoples originated in the region of what is now Southern Germany, and then they expanded considerably.

17-Celtic-Expansion-3rd-century-BC.jpg


They didn't really get a foot-hold in Northern Germany, because the nascent Germanic peoples were expanding there. So they moved Easth instead, into the Austria/Czechia region, and then expanded further, as depicted on the map. They invaded Italy and Greece repeatedly, and - as you can see -- some of their raiding tribes ended up settling in Anatolia!

Rome pretty much exterminated continental Celtic culture, and the mounting pressure of the Germanic peoples (who were entering their own "turn" in the expansionist cycle, so to speak) did the rest. When Caesar arrived in Gaul, the Germanic king Ariovistus had crossed the Rhine already, and had sudued swathes of Gaul. (In fact, Ariovistus was himself a "friend of Rome"... having been sponsored by Caesar himself! But they ended up with conflicting interests, and Caesar drove the Germanic tribes back and made the Rhine the general border between Gallic and Germanic lands. This was to remain so until the Roman Empire began to crumble. Then the Germans finally crossed the Rhine in truly vast numbers. By that time, "Gaul" no longer existed culturally, and the migrating Germans adopted Latin, not some Gallic language. Because Gallic was no longer spoken! And so the French were created: Romanised Germans, mixed with previously Romanised Celts.)
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I now vaguely remember that the Helvetii were a Celtic tribe:


I had forgotten about this for who knows how long!

And Yeah, it's quite interesting how present-day French people are a mixture of Celts, Romans, and Germanics in regards to their ancestry--though I suspect that the Roman influence is more cultural and religious rather than genetic. Still, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if some Roman genes still exist in France even today due to historical Roman intermarriage with the Gaullic Celts.

Also, off-topic, but fun fact: Celts can be pronouned either Kelts or Selts:

www.merriam-webster.com

Why Is 'Celtic' Pronounced Two Ways?

\SELT\ has been heard for many centuries; \KELT\, just a few.
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
 
WolfBear said:
Then it should be spelled Kelts rather than Celts, no?
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Not if you go with Latin, in which the 'c' is pronounced like that anyway. And most people in the West tend to derive such names from the Roman sources, rather than the Greek ones.

(I personally have a tendency to use Greek spelling when referencing Greek names -- e.g. "Seleukids" rather than "Seleucids", "Kassandros" rather than "Cassander" -- but that's just because I'm weird like that.)
 
Skallagrim said:
Not if you go with Latin, in which the 'c' is pronounced like that anyway. And most people in the West tend to derive such names from the Roman sources, rather than the Greek ones.

(I personally have a tendency to use Greek spelling when referencing Greek names -- e.g. "Seleukids" rather than "Seleucids", "Kassandros" rather than "Cassander" -- but that's just because I'm weird like that.)
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What about Kassandra rather than Cassandra? ;) Interestingly enough, at my first university, I knew a girl named Kassandra whose first name was spelled with a K instead of with a C. Seriously.
 
WolfBear said:
Then it should be spelled Kelts rather than Celts, no?
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It should - but good luck with going against 2000 years of spelling convention and 1500 years of mispronounciation. It's like pissing upwind ...
WolfBear said:
What about Kassandra rather than Cassandra? ;)
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Languages are not consistent. And in some countries parents are allowed to name their children whatever they wish - this extending to spelling.
Skallagrim said:
Celtae in Latin
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And most probably pronounced "keltay" - thus closer to the Greek "keltoi" than one might suspect.
 
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