Alternate History Map Thread

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Hi everyone, @Basileus_Komnenos here. Here's a general map thread for all you AH and Cartography buffs to enjoy. Feel free to post your maps here.

I guess I'll start off with some of my own maps:

Here's a map of the Western Roman Empire prior to Emperor Majorian's death. This was after his campaigns which brought much of Gallia and Hispania back under Roman control and/or influence. He was however betrayed right before his planned expedition to reconquer North Africa from the Vandals where his fleet was burned. Majorian was later executed by the vile traitor Ricimer which saw Majorian's conquests falling apart with the Empire proper largely recognized only within Italy.

A map of a Visconti United Italy. Here in ttl, Gian-Galeazso Visconti manages to not die of the plague in 1402. He was poised to conquer Tuscany in otl before his death. By exploiting the Western schism in the papacy and the Hundred years War, the Visconti take the Iron Crown with control over de-jure control over most of the Medieval Kingdom of Italy.

A map depicting an alternate end to the Greek Civil War.

Basically here in ttl, the Communists and left-leaning Republicans manage to attain victory on the mainland in the Greek Civil War that began in 1946. With most of the mainland falling to Communist Control, the Royal family and the Hellenic government fled to Crete where they form a government in exile. The unexpected fall of Greece to the Red Tide of Communism causes panic throughout Europe as the USSR now has access to the warm water Mediterranean ports through a friendly Greece. The exiled Kingdom of Greece now finds itself a propped up by the UK, France, and the US seeking to contain Soviet influence. In this timeline the Cold War is a bit more heated than otl, and the rump Kingdom of Greece ends up as a sort of Taiwan to the People's Republic of Greece. Eventually as the Communist government grows unpopular the people begin agitating for independence and an end to the Communist regime especially as the Orthodox Church is suppressed, and living standards decline in comparison to the more prosperous capitalist states. This resentment and tension finally boils over leading to the Greek Revolution of the 1980's with the people rising up against the tyrannical dictatorship as the Royalist armies are welcomed into Greece. The Revolution proved to be the first nail in the coffin for Soviet Empire as it caused a domino effect with nations like Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Poland soon having their own Revolutions. This eventually leads to the downfall of the Soviet Union culminating in the disastrous Second Russian Civil War of 1991 that led to the rise of the Vozhd Putin who serves as regent for the newly restored Romanovs.

Greece here develops into a Constitutional Monarchy here in ttl, though unlike say the UK, Belgium, or Spain, the monarchy has more executive powers here as a result of Greece being more of a de-facto Royalist dictatorship due to the circumstances surrounding the aftermath of the civil war. Though the government here is far more moderate and has begun to liberalize as the years pass. Greece after the Revolution becomes a robust economic power within Europe after the war, developing a major shipping industry and experiencing a massive economic boom following an influx of foreign investment.

A map of Eurasia and North Africa in the Year 700 during the rise of the Umayyad Caliphate.

A map I made for Praetor98 on AH for his SI fic, I, Wilhlem. Its basically a self-insert into Kaiser Wilhelm II.​

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

The Marble Emperor's Revenge! - An Alternate Ending to the Greco-Turkish War

A map depicting Greece's borders after the Greco-Turkish Wars c. 1936 just prior to WWII

As you can see, in ttl, Greece emerged as a victor of the Greco-Turkish War, which in ttl is known also known as the Roman of Restoration within Greece. In ttl Greek propagandists and historians paint the war and the years following Greek independence as part of a larger national struggle for liberation. From an objective perspective, the success of the Balkan Wars and the subsequent Greco-Turkish Wars did allow Greece to emerge as a truly independent state free from economic hegemony under the French and British where it emerged as a strong regional power and the focus of the Orthodox world as Greece with control over Mt. Athos and the restored Patriarchate of Constantinople.

The main pod for this is that the Assassination attempt against King George I is thwarted, and thus Greece has a more pro-entente government which enters WWI earlier after the British promise Cyprus and Northern Epirus to the Greeks. One critical divergence from otl here is that Greece has a much more stable government. A major consequence of this is that the schism between the Venizelists and Constantine's supporters are avoided with King George serving as a mediator between both sides. Thus Prince Constantine is made the head of a better prepared Greek army which helps to relieve the Serbians and has a better military performance in the war which leaves it seen as a much more respected nation at the peace table. Here Greece manages to take Constantinople, but are forced to give it up as part of an international zone. Greece is instead compensated with land in Smyrna. In ttl, Attaturk is killed at Gallipoli leaving Turkey with much less competent government under the Sultanate.

With Smyrna under Greek occupation, the Megali idea of "liberating" the Greeks in Asia and creating a Trans-Aegan state becomes popular. And following King George's death after the end of the War, the new King Constantine takes the throne as "Constantine I and XII." As both Venizelos and Constantine were forced to compromise during the war, the two form a working relationship which leads to a general rapprochement following Constantine's ascension to the throne with the two united in a desire to realize the vision of a "Greater Greece." The Greco-Turkish War here results in a much better prepared and led Greek Army which manages to take over the Western Aegean with the Greek and French armies forcing the Turks to sign a humiliating peace deal after the Greeks capture the main army and eventually Anakara. This left Turkey to a very much reduced in size and out for revenge in the Second World War.

As for the French, Cilicia is ceded back to Turkey which forces many Cilician Armenians to flee to Greece and Armenia fearing reprisals from a vengeful Turkish army. Though the a Kurdish state is setup as a joint Anglo-French puppet alongside an independent Assyrian state. Here in ttl, rather than Wilsonian Armenia being created, the Armenia is a slightly bigger version of the First Republic with it having sea access by virtue of the port city of Batumi. This is a point of contention between the Georgia and Armenia, but these concerns are swept aside with the later rise of the Turkish State forcing the two to band together for mutual protection with Greek support who also allies with Kurdistan mirroring the interbellum "Little Entente" formed in the Balkans to contain a Revanchist Hungary.

With their hold on Constantinople tenuous, it is handed to Greece who re-establish it as their Capital where King Constantine crowns himself in a ceremony reminiscent of the Romans of old as Constantine XII fulfilling the legend of the Marble Emperor retaking the Imperial City. Though this title isn't initially taken seriously until after WW2 when the Empire was cemented as an enduring political entity. Within Greece King Constantine is seen as a highly popular figure (even more than otl) as a "liberator" for the Greeks. Prior to the seizure of Constantinople Prime minister Venizelos was assassinated by a Communist which shocked the public. And with fears of Bolshevism on the rise the Soviets winning the Russian Civil War and the later Battle of Warsaw, which causes the Venezelists rally around the Emperor who created a new more monarchical government. This coalition party of Conservatives, Nationalist, and Venezelists unite against the rising Red Tide sweeping through Europe. This sees a more nationalist government take hold rallying around the Emperor turning Greece into more of de-facto one party Royalist dictatorship.

While things look bright on the surface for the Greeks, the issue of Ethnic tensions remains which leads to a dark chapter in the human history as this period is rife with atrocities committed against each other. In accordance with the treaty of Lausanne, a population transfer was to take place. Though this ended causing a massive humanitarian crisis as millions of people were displaced from their homes.

And with the Fall of Poland and the Caucuses, many in Europe began to fear a wider Communist Revolution throughout Europe. And with the fall of the Caucuses to the Red Tide in the early 1920's, the Ottoman Sultan was overthrown in favor of a shaky and short-lived Turkish Republic which too collapses further into civil war where a new Turkish Socialist Republic emerges victorious both friendly to Moscow and burning with a desire to retake its lost land and avenge its humiliation.

Within Germany, panic spread which led to instability within the Weimar Republic that led to its eventual downfall. Within Austria Kaiser Karl was able to reclaim his throne, and through a plebiscite, managed regain South Tyrol except for Trentino following pro-Austrian riots leading to an internationally mediated plebiscite being held. This feeling of a mutilated victory would contribute to the rise of the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in the 1920's.

The year is now 1936 and the young Empire of the Romans now finds itself on shaky ground as its surrounded by enemy nations and an unstable economic situation. Will the legacy of the Marble Emperor be preserved, or will it be smashed to pieces by the oncoming Red Tide?

What do you guys think of this map and lore? I'm thinking of making a larger map encompassing Europe around this time period if you guys are interested.

 

[Deleted member 88]

These are some really good maps. I really like the Communist Greek one.

Makes me wonder how that would effect the situation with Yugoslavia.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

These are some really good maps. I really like the Communist Greek one.

Makes me wonder how that would effect the situation with Yugoslavia.

Not sure, but I think Stalin might lay off trying to kill Tito since he now has Greece falling into his lap. Though the Monarchy in exile on the islands is another issue altogether. I can imagine that the British likely keep Malta as a Crown colony here because they like the rest of Europe would probably be freaking out at the prospect of a USSR with access to the Mediterranean.

 

[Deleted member 88]

The Soviet Navy would be able to based in a permanent warm water port(though-they’d have to get through the Bosphorus.

I suspect Turkey would if anything-not join NATO-it might end up being Finlandized. Given that the red army could attack it from three directions-west, East, and north.

Meaning I suspect the western powers would invest more in holding the Middle East. And that would run headlong into the anti colonial revolts and Arab nationalism.

But a communist Greece changes the Cold War dynamics in the eastern Mediterranean dramatically.

 

[MrBirthday]

I guess I'll start off with some of my own maps:

Huh. None of the stuff I've read about the Roman Empire saw fit to mention that there was a Western Roman Emperor doing a pretty good job of restoring Rome's territory that late into the game. Even if he wasn't around for that long, I'd say that's a pretty big omission. Seems that him surviving would be a prime POD for a surviving Western Empire.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Huh. None of the stuff I've read about the Roman Empire saw fit to mention that there was a Western Roman Emperor doing a pretty good job of restoring Rome's territory that late into the game. Even if he wasn't around for that long, I'd say that's a pretty big omission. Seems that him surviving would be a prime POD for a surviving Western Empire.

Yeah most people when studying the late WRE just stop at the Theodosians and then jump to Romulus Augustulus. The thing is that legally, the WRE ended in the 480's where Julius Nepos was assassinated. He ruled as Western Roman Emperor though his control only really could be seen throughout Dalmatia. From the Roman perspective, Romulus Augustus and his father Orestes were illegitimate usurpers.

Nepos was initially put on the throne by his ally Ricimer who wanted a pliable puppet on the throne. The thing is that Majorian was actually really competent and began pulling a Grand Admiral Thrawn in terms of restoring the Empire. His lightning campaigns in Gaul and Hispania forced most of the Germanic tribes who took large swathes of Roman territory back into foederate status as de-facto vassals of the Empire.

You should read about the Syagrii who managed to hold on for quite a while in Northern Gaul after Majorian's death. I'm thinking of eventually writing a timeline about a Romano-Gallic restoration of the Western Empire based upon the Syagrians being successful.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

A map I made for KnightofTempest's SI fic on AH into Louis II of Hungary where the Jagellions manage to defeat the Ottomans saving Hungary from being conquered. Basically the Hungarians at the last minute manage to reform themselves in time to avoid the disaster of the Battle of Mohacs where the go on to liberate Serbia while breaking the momentum of the Ottoman advance into Europe.​

 

[MrBirthday]

I'm thinking of eventually writing a timeline about a Romano-Gallic restoration of the Western Empire based upon the Syagrians being successful.

Could be interesting. Care to hear something I'm always bemused by? Popular (i.e. commercial) depictions of a surviving Roman Empire always depicting them as pagans, when even five minutes of research would make it clear that Christianity had been the state and dominate religion for some time prior to its end.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

The Empire of Three Seas-Angevin Hungarian Empire

This is based on my CKII game where I played as Louis "the Great" of Hungary and tried to emulate his own historical political plays and military campaigns. As a result I ended up with a little bit bigger Capetian Angevin Empire. Louis the Great historically was one of the early Absolutist Kings who managed to reform the legal and economic systems within the Kingdom. As a result Hungary under his rule experienced something of a Golden Age. In terms of comparison, he'd probably be the Saint-Louis of Hungary. He was elected King of Poland by the Nobility and managed to take the Kingdom of Naples from Joanna I. Here in ttl, Louis is more successful such as where he manages to be more conciliatory towards the Italians such that they don't revolt against his regents and his Kingship. In ttl, Louis the Great of Hungary has a son who manages to consolidate his father's holdings and influence. From there he made a campaign to using the might of his dominions to annex Sicily proper back, reuniting the Kingdoms of Sicily as one. From there Louis' son Charles managed to engage in a successful campaign against the Ottomans driving them out of Europe. In my game I allied with Byzantium (the inner Byzantophile in me wouldn't let them die) and restored a lot of there territory in Thrace and Northern Greece allowing them to serve as a strong buffer against the Turks while not allowing them to challenge his hegemony within the Balkans. The principalities of Wallachia and Moldova which in otl were established with Angevin support were made vassals into the Hungarian Crownlands and later integrated into the realm allowing Hungary direct access into the Black Sea.
What do you guys think of this map and timeline?
Looking at the title you probably thought it was a Plantagenet map, but it was actually the Capetians.

​

 

[Deleted member 88]

I really like it, good contrast to OTL where the Balkans were a warring mess of kings and princes.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Nobody Expects the Spanish Empire!

The Spanish Empire in the 16th Century under the House of Burgundy (Iverea/Ascarids). This was based on an old EUIV game where I played as Castile trying to restore the old borders of Visigothic Spain. I used the 1356 mod playing as Castile under Pedro I "El Justo" (The Just) during the War of Two Peters where he fought a civil war against the Enrique of Trastamara who was Pedro's illegitimate brother. Pedro had tried to centralize the lands of the Castilian Crown, and this had brought him into conflict with the nobility who turned to his bastard brother to safeguard their rights. In otl Enrique assassinated him a peace summit. Pedro was not really the most militarily inclined man and fled when Enrique marched with a large band of mercenaries seeking to steal his crown. In ttl thanks to RNG mechanics (I think the mod had a bug), I ended up with Pedro being a much better military leader. And in this alternate timeline Pedro crushes his brother on the field and embarks upon his planned purge of the nobility. To his supporters (mostly the peasants) he was seen as Peter the Just, but to his opponents he was seen as Peter the Cruel. Another divergence I'm thinking of is that Peter marries Joan of England (Edward III's daughter) solidifying the links and dynastic connection between England and Castile (this is what happened in game with Royal marriages). Thus Peter joins the Hundred Years War against France and its allies where Peter manages to successfully take the lands of the Kingdom of Valencia from the Aragonese Crown. From there he embarks upon a lightning campaign in France helping to aid the Black Prince in scoring large chunks of Southern France. From the war Castile received large amounts of loot which helped repair its economic situation.

Eventually Castile inherited Portugal and later conquered Aragon in a war of succession with Naples which it eventually won and upon victory, the new King revived the old Medieval title of Imperator Totius Hispaniae (Emperor of All Spain) used by Castilian Kings centuries earlier proclaiming a new Imperial state within Europe. England would eventually go on to Win the Hundred Years War creating a new dual monarchy between France and England. However wary of the growing power of this new state, the nascent Spanish Empire's relations with England cooled. However England was rocked by a succession crisis with the subsequent extinction of the main line of Plantagenets. This coupled with a French secessionist and noble revolts saw a succession war erupt between England and Spain. Spain's ruler Emperor Carlos I asserted his right to rule based on the closer female bloodline, but the English not wanting to be under the dominion of Spain engaged in war with Burgundian support. Carlos however had no real expectation of claiming the English or French throne. All he had wanted was lands in Southern France to expand his Empire's own wealth and to cut down the Dual Monarchy to size securing Spain's position as the pre-eminent power in Christendom. Spain managed to achieve its objectives in the war taking most of Southern France which threw open its gates to whom they viewed as the more legitimate monarch. In terms of the lore, Emperor Carlos promised to respect the other nobles' own rights and autonomy as opposed to the English trying to re-organize and centralize their domains. Spain with its dominance secured experienced a long golden age called the Pax Hispania where it was able to create a massive new colonial Empire. Though this golden age began to wind down as competition over colonies increased with the presence of the Burgundians, English, and Scandinavians who all sought the riches of the new world.

What do you guys think of this map and mini tl?

 

[lordhen]

The maps are very good, better than i can make.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

The maps are very good, better than i can make.

Thanks man! I have another set of maps coming up. One's about a victorious Third French Empire in WWII, and the other is about a more successful Louis XIV.

 

[lordhen]

Thanks man! I have another set of maps coming up. One's about a victorious Third French Empire in WWII, and the other is about a more successful Louis XIV.

A Third French Empire beating the Germans in World War II, well bring it on.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

A Third French Empire beating the Germans in World War II, well bring it on.

Well here's my Louis XIV map.

A map where Louis XIV is more successful in his wars. Here in ttl he though a more measured approach, relies on diplomacy as much as warfare to work with the English as well as other European powers to achieve his geopolitical goals. Louis XIV here manages to overrun the Spanish Netherlands and eventually crush the upstart Dutch Republic. The Habsburgs of Austria collapsed in 1670 with Emperor Leopold I dying of sudden illness. The hopes the Habsburgs are crushed when his posthumous heir dies in infancy seeing the Habsburgs crumble. Within this interregnum the Wittlesbachs of Bavaria manage to usurp the Crown of Bohemia and the Imperial title. The Hungarians aristocracy manage to revolt against the Austrians who attain independence in the wake of the Habsburgs' collapse. Hungary however in the aftermath is overrun by the Ottoman backed vassal encroaching further into the lands of Christendom. However this leaves France the most powerful and important state in Christendom now with it and by extension, the Sun King himself, the axis around which all of Europe revolved. With relations straining with the Bavarians Louis XIV in the Wars of Devolution plays the Habsburgs and Wittlesbachs against each other where he manages to take much of the Rhineland and Low Countries boosting France's economic potential. Though his alliance with subsidization of Charles II, the House of Stuart now sits at the height of its popularity with the King building a new navy and tilting the balance of power within Britain towards the throne as opposed to Parliament. With the seizure of Zeeland which Charles adds to the Royal Crownlands, he now had more access to trade revenues making him functionally fiscally independent from Parliament.
What do you guys think of this map and tl?

 

[lordhen]

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What do you guys think of this map and tl?

Looks good, lets hope Louis XIV grand son does not mess things up in this TL as well.

 

[stevep]

Well here's my Louis XIV map.

A map where Louis XIV is more successful in his wars. Here in ttl he though a more measured approach, relies on diplomacy as much as warfare to work with the English as well as other European powers to achieve his geopolitical goals. Louis XIV here manages to overrun the Spanish Netherlands and eventually crush the upstart Dutch Republic. The Habsburgs of Austria collapsed in 1670 with Emperor Leopold I dying of sudden illness. The hopes the Habsburgs are crushed when his posthumous heir dies in infancy seeing the Habsburgs crumble. Within this interregnum the Wittlesbachs of Bavaria manage to usurp the Crown of Bohemia and the Imperial title. The Hungarians aristocracy manage to revolt against the Austrians who attain independence in the wake of the Habsburgs' collapse. Hungary however in the aftermath is overrun by the Ottoman backed vassal encroaching further into the lands of Christendom. However this leaves France the most powerful and important state in Christendom now with it and by extension, the Sun King himself, the axis around which all of Europe revolved. With relations straining with the Bavarians Louis XIV in the Wars of Devolution plays the Habsburgs and Wittlesbachs against each other where he manages to take much of the Rhineland and Low Countries boosting France's economic potential. Though his alliance with subsidization of Charles II, the House of Stuart now sits at the height of its popularity with the King building a new navy and tilting the balance of power within Britain towards the throne as opposed to Parliament. With the seizure of Zeeland which Charles adds to the Royal Crownlands, he now had more access to trade revenues making him functionally fiscally independent from Parliament.
What do you guys think of this map and tl?

Interesting map and definitely a possibility at the time. As a Brit glad it didn't happen as its likely to be bad for my country with the Stuarts at least forcing a 2nd civil war to overthrow them or at worse gaining the sort of autocratic power that stamps out any liberalism in Britain. Also as a believer in the balance of power I fear that a France this strong and with Hapsburg and Dutch power sapped as well as the Turks rampant would be bad for Europe as a whole, not to mention in this situation Louis XIV is likely to be able to annex Spain without real opposition. You could get a single empire dominating western Europe and most of the current colonial possessions with very little to check it.

As such a quite possible world but likely not to be good for most of Europe and possibly the world I fear.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Interesting map and definitely a possibility at the time. As a Brit glad it didn't happen as its likely to be bad for my country with the Stuarts at least forcing a 2nd civil war to overthrow them or at worse gaining the sort of autocratic power that stamps out any liberalism in Britain.

I doubt that actually would have really ended as bad as you think. The Stuarts were actually quite willing to compromise if it meant saving their throne. Plus Charles II wasn't really a bad monarch as he managed to re-assert the power of the monarchy while not upsetting the boat. His only real failing was in his scandalous personal life where he didn't sire a legitimate heir. Charles I being more popular here in ttl means that he now has a monetary source independent of Parliament which avoids some of the fights with the Stuarts and the Parliamentarians over tax revenue.

Also as a believer in the balance of power I fear that a France this strong and with Hapsburg and Dutch power sapped as well as the Turks rampant would be bad for Europe as a whole, not to mention in this situation Louis XIV is likely to be able to annex Spain without real opposition.

Not even Louis XIV was really fond of the idea of a Personal union between Spain and France. He knew that it would be untenable. That's why he gave his claim to his grandson. He still however wanted the throne open to Philip in case something happened to the main French Bourbon line (they had a massive die off after Louis XIV leading to it being extinct later in the 19th Century). It would have likely meant Philip would abdicate the throne to his son while he claimed the French throne.

The balance of power is kinda an overrated/overstated concept since it was broken many times throughout history as the unification of Italy and Germany demonstrate.

 

[stevep]

I doubt that actually would have really ended as bad as you think. The Stuarts were actually quite willing to compromise if it meant saving their throne. Plus Charles II wasn't really a bad monarch as he managed to re-assert the power of the monarchy while not upsetting the boat. His only real failing was in his scandalous personal life where he didn't sire a legitimate heir. Charles I being more popular here in ttl means that he now has a monetary source independent of Parliament which avoids some of the fights with the Stuarts and the Parliamentarians over tax revenue.

Would have to disagree here. A king who believes he rules by divine right and can ignore any laws or appeals as his wishes is not a good thing for stable government or the rule of law that is necessary for a healthy or wealth society. Charlies II wasn't as bad but his deal with the French to bypass Parliamentary constraints made for a very dangerous position. Both because a monarchy who can rule by naked forces isn't good and because the annexation of most of the Netherlands apart from exposing the intervening Spanish Netherlands - greatly increase French power relative to 'Britain'.

Not many people bothered about his personal life or that much about his lack of a son other than that his brother James was openly committed to Catholicism which was still a matter of great concern.

I remember a story about a crowd gathering around a carriage thought to contain one of Charles's mistresses, a Catholic lady. On hearing the crowd jeering and insulting the 'Catholic whore' the window of the carriage open and Nell Gwen calmed the crowd by declaring "No good people I am the Protestant whore" or words to that effect. There was a deep mistrust of Catholicism and its link with autocratic monarchy, probably being reinforced by events in France in this time period

Not even Louis XIV was really fond of the idea of a Personal union between Spain and France. He knew that it would be untenable. That's why he gave his claim to his grandson. He still however wanted the throne open to Philip in case something happened to the main French Bourbon line (they had a massive die off after Louis XIV leading to it being extinct later in the 19th Century). It would have likely meant Philip would abdicate the throne to his son while he claimed the French throne.

Possibly remembering it wrongly but it would definitely make Louis XIV's position more powerful, especially if he gained such influence over Spain and its territory without the damage and costs of a lot of warfare or having to give up a lot of Spain's interests in Italy and OTL Belgium to Austria.

The balance of power is kinda an overrated/overstated concept since it was broken many times throughout history as the unification of Italy and Germany demonstrate.

It can be upset but human nature means that it tends to work to correct any imbalance. Italian unification didn't greatly alter the balance as the nation was too weak in a number of ways although a Prussian dominated Germany than then rapidly industrialised did do so. Which meant other powers moved to counter that and we ended up with two world wars. Historically the worst wars in modern European history [i.e.~1500 onward] has been when one power/alliance basically says "we're dominating the continent and you will do what we want" and enough other powers have replied "no your not!"

Steve