Belief vs Necessity of God and What that tells us about an individual.

[The Whispering Monk]

So I was recently watching a Dennis Prager(U) video where in Dennis Prager addresses these two statements:

I believe in God
I believe in the Necessity of God

and what those two different statements tell us about the speaker.

Ep. 242 — The Necessity of Fathers | PragerU Relevant section begins at the 19:30 mark till the 26:15 mark.

TLDW: Asserts that you actually don't really learn anything about someone that states they believe in God. You don't know if they're kind or cruel or anything about how they treat their fellow man. Whereas those that state they believe in the necessity of God (and Dennis Prager explains this much better in the video) see the requirement to follow the moral values in God's law which reveals a good deal about an individual.

Recommend you watch the 7 minutes or so

Really, I just thought this take was pretty interesting as I've never put this thought together myself. What say you all?

 

[Stargazer]

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
James 2:19 ESV

As a Christian, I would frame it as the recognition of the necessity of Jesus as Savior. But yeah, I agree that the basic notion "I believe in God" doesn't really say much about a person, or require much change.

One example that comes to mind is Dave Rubin. A while back he made a statement that he's "no longer an atheist", that he "believes in God". There was some celebration among conservatives for that, but I didn't really celebrate. I knew that he was influenced by Jordan Peterson, who, though he's extremely intelligent and clever and has a lot of good observations about society, has a very convoluted and impersonal conception of God. Dave didn't make any sort of confession of faith, no repentance, no personal transformation. "Belief in God" made no practical difference to him. And sure enough, a few months ago he made the proud announcement that he was have two children with his "husband" through surrogacy. Any Christian should have balked at that.

 

[Cherico]

You can believe in a religion and be really bad at it.

I'm honestly kind of shit at mine.

 

[King Krávoka]

It's not an improvement over the original question, with all the same flaws of "Do you believe in God?" and more, since in addition to the original complaint of "which God?", one also puts in "needed for what?" Dennis Prager was unable to communicate a point to his statement, any wisdom found there is just a projection of your own conclusions.

 

[Terthna]

any wisdom found there is just a projection of your own conclusions.

I've found that to be a common theme when discussing religion.

 

[Simonbob]

If I might boil Dennis Prager arguments down to the base?

If there is no God, no over-arching moral authority, then murder, amongst many other things, is not wrong.


Without God, there is no true Right and Wrong.


I'm not sure that Dennis Prager is wrong, in that.

 

[King Krávoka]

If I might boil Dennis Prager arguments down to the base?

If there is no God, no over-arching moral authority, then murder, amongst many other things, is not wrong.


Without God, there is no true Right and Wrong.

I'm going to guess that he didn't mean that, it's not nice to assume that someone is saying evil things just because you can't understand them.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I'm going to guess that he didn't mean that, it's not nice to assume that someone is saying evil things just because you can't understand them.

How is that statement evil?

 

[Simonbob]

I'm going to guess that he didn't mean that, it's not nice to assume that someone is saying evil things just because you can't understand them.

It's a philosophical problem. What makes something evil? What makes something wrong?

To skip past moral relatism, there's a theory, and Dennis Prager seems to be a supporter of it, that only God, an all powerful moral arbiter, is the only way to make things actually "Good" or "Evil".


Moral Relatism is a really destructive thing. But.....

Where was that quote?

“Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. and yet... and yet you act as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some... some rightness in the universe by which it may be judged.”

― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

 

[King Krávoka]

How is that statement evil?

That's an agreement with the mindset of an evil person, who does not believe that righteousness is anything more than a societal expectation, by admitting that good and evil are illusions and the only truth is force. It suffocates any attempt to understand objective morality, and then they project their own amoralism onto God.

 

[Stargazer]

That's an agreement with the mindset of an evil person, who does not believe that righteousness is anything more than a societal expectation, by admitting that good and evil are illusions and the only truth is force. It suffocates any attempt to understand objective morality, and then they project their own amoralism onto God.

You kind of have a point, in that an amoral atheistic person agrees with monotheists that there is no basis for objective morality if there is no ultimate creator of that reality, no ultimate lawgiver. But what does that matter, if both are correct? It's not just about "suffocating any attempt to understand objective morality". It's rejecting the idea that there even is, that there even can be, objective morality, if there is no ultimate creator of it.

And to be clear, a monotheist, a Christian monotheist at least, rejects the idea that good and evil are "illusions".

 

[ShieldWife]

I neither believe in God nor do I believe that God is necessary. Though learning whether or not someone believes in God is far more informative than them saying that God is necessary, because belief in God is a more quantifiable claim. Stating that God is necessary is a much fuzzier claim.

It would be better if he just argued that god(s) need to exist for “objective” morality to exist, which is a very old argument in apologetics which typically falls flat when it’s examined closely.

 

[WolfBear]

I neither believe in God nor do I believe that God is necessary. Though learning whether or not someone believes in God is far more informative than them saying that God is necessary, because belief in God is a more quantifiable claim. Stating that God is necessary is a much fuzzier claim.

It would be better if he just argued that god(s) need to exist for “objective” morality to exist, which is a very old argument in apologetics which typically falls flat when it’s examined closely.

Off-topic, but welcome back!

 

[Simonbob]

That's an agreement with the mindset of an evil person, who does not believe that righteousness is anything more than a societal expectation, by admitting that good and evil are illusions and the only truth is force. It suffocates any attempt to understand objective morality, and then they project their own amoralism onto God.

Ok.

So, what is Evil?

 

[Lord Sovereign]

“Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. and yet... and yet you act as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some... some rightness in the universe by which it may be judged.”

― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

Weirdly, and I don't think Pratchett meant it that way, but I find this to be one of the most passionate arguments for the necessity of God there can be. Only through belief in his light and wisdom, whether it be real or not, can we bring order and justice to his chaotic creation.

I neither believe in God nor do I believe that God is necessary.

 

[ATP]

If I might boil Dennis Prager arguments down to the base?

If there is no God, no over-arching moral authority, then murder, amongst many other things, is not wrong.


Without God, there is no true Right and Wrong.


I'm not sure that Dennis Prager is wrong, in that.

Of course.We have Laws to teach what id good,but all those laws started from religions.
P.S there was soviet proverb "Boga net,ojca w mordu mozna" or something like that/my translation - there is no God,so i could beat my father/