Christian Nationalism and it's weakness

[King Arts]

So I was watching a video that this Protestant redeemed zoomer made, and he listed 3 weaknesses of the U.S. Christian Nationalist movement.

1. They frequently retreat, they think that they just need to abandon cities, or higher universities to the left, and everything will handle itself. Yet the way Christianity performed one of it's biggest miracles and converted Rome was by going to and capturing the cities. The Apostles and their disciples did not just go out to the country pop out a bunch of kids and hope the kids would conquer the Empire.

2. They are anti elite. By doint this they are ensuring they won't be able to change much, Christians should try to get into elite positions to make change.

3. They don't want to recapture institutions and would prefer to make their own new ones. Making new things is not bad but you are starting from zero, and the institutions you make won't produce as much as the old institutions until you build them up, and again I don't see any solution these people put forth to avoid future leftist infiltration like has happened before.




So Christians of the sietch that I know of what are your thoughts?
@DarthOne @ATP @S'task @LordsFire

Sorry those are the only people off the top of my head who have professed Christian belief. But anyone else who is Christian feel free to come by or to call them over.

 

[King Arts]

@KilroywasNOTHere

 

[DarthOne]

Honestly I think these are all valid points. Though bear in mind, I don’t really see myself as a good Christian. Mostly due to a combo of flaws and trying to rework my mindset.

Though an issue I see is that trying to recapture the institutions is going to be an uphill struggle to put it lightly.

There’s also people who take the idea of ‘Christians not being part of the world’ and ‘hating the world’ too literally. In that they don’t want to get involved because they see it as anti-Christian. Possibly tied into the whole ‘hippy Jesus’ misconception as well.

 

[ATP]

So I was watching a video that this Protestant redeemed zoomer made, and he listed 3 weaknesses of the U.S. Christian Nationalist movement.

1. They frequently retreat, they think that they just need to abandon cities, or higher universities to the left, and everything will handle itself. Yet the way Christianity performed one of it's biggest miracles and converted Rome was by going to and capturing the cities. The Apostles and their disciples did not just go out to the country pop out a bunch of kids and hope the kids would conquer the Empire.

2. They are anti elite. By doint this they are ensuring they won't be able to change much, Christians should try to get into elite positions to make change.

3. They don't want to recapture institutions and would prefer to make their own new ones. Making new things is not bad but you are starting from zero, and the institutions you make won't produce as much as the old institutions until you build them up, and again I don't see any solution these people put forth to avoid future leftist infiltration like has happened before.




So Christians of the sietch that I know of what are your thoughts?
@DarthOne @ATP @S'task @LordsFire

Sorry those are the only people off the top of my head who have professed Christian belief. But anyone else who is Christian feel free to come by or to call them over.

You are right - but,in case of catholics,leftist infiltrate us,and our once stronger orders,like jesuits and dominicans,become woke.
The same goes for many bishops and cardinals.Even pope seems compromised.

To be honest,without Miracle we are done.
That is why my only hope now is Holy Mary.

P.S Yes,if we keep running,we would die.They would find us in remote villages,too.Problem is - our leaders are compromised,and that goes for all churches.

 

[S'task]

So I was watching a video that this Protestant redeemed zoomer made, and he listed 3 weaknesses of the U.S. Christian Nationalist movement.

1. They frequently retreat, they think that they just need to abandon cities, or higher universities to the left, and everything will handle itself. Yet the way Christianity performed one of it's biggest miracles and converted Rome was by going to and capturing the cities. The Apostles and their disciples did not just go out to the country pop out a bunch of kids and hope the kids would conquer the Empire.

2. They are anti elite. By doint this they are ensuring they won't be able to change much, Christians should try to get into elite positions to make change.

3. They don't want to recapture institutions and would prefer to make their own new ones. Making new things is not bad but you are starting from zero, and the institutions you make won't produce as much as the old institutions until you build them up, and again I don't see any solution these people put forth to avoid future leftist infiltration like has happened before.




So Christians of the sietch that I know of what are your thoughts?
@DarthOne @ATP @S'task @LordsFire

Sorry those are the only people off the top of my head who have professed Christian belief. But anyone else who is Christian feel free to come by or to call them over.

I'm not sure who he thinks as "Christian Nationalists". That term is... very bad because firstly, it's not a term that originated with any group or movement itself, rather, it was a label created by political and ideological opponents used to label pretty much every right leaning Christian in the US and while some may have unironically embraced it the vast majority of what the media and others call "Christian Nationalists" don't identify with that name nor are organized under it. By the broadest definition, I'm a Christian Nationalist, since I'm religiously Christian and right wing and believe that the laws should, to a degree, reflect my values. But, well, by that broad strokes definition of Christian Nationalist, you can call most on the Left "Progressive Nationalists" in that they are left wing and believe that the laws should reflect their values. That's the fundamental problem with the term, as it is meant as a derogatory attack term for some other group, and I have no way of knowing what specific group is being targeted, and, frankly, from other videos I've (tried) to watch from that producer while I respect him for his view, he desperately needs an editor to tighten up his dialogue and to get less rambly.

1. They frequently retreat, they think that they just need to abandon cities, or higher universities to the left, and everything will handle itself. Yet the way Christianity performed one of it's biggest miracles and converted Rome was by going to and capturing the cities. The Apostles and their disciples did not just go out to the country pop out a bunch of kids and hope the kids would conquer the Empire.

So, I know of no Christian group that thinks we should abandoned cities and universities due to purely ideological reasons. The main thing I have hear pushed against is the sending of children to captured universities because, to be frank, they are not usually emotionally or spiritually mature enough to be witnesses in that environment, which is broadly speaking true. Likewise when your children are younger, raising them in cities is often not the best environment you can provide, and a parent's first responsibility is to their children and should ensure the best environment for their children to be raised in. If that means leaving urban areas for the suburbs and rural areas, I cannot fault them for that. If you think that means "giving up" on those areas, well, frankly, use your own children for it and don't lecture those of us with kids for doing what we think is best for them.

Beyond those areas though, what else is there to do? From a religious perspective the best one can do is treat the urban centers as missionary fields, and attempt to spread the good word.

2. They are anti elite. By doint this they are ensuring they won't be able to change much, Christians should try to get into elite positions to make change.

That's a nice thing to say should be done, but HOW? The modern elite is severely anti-Christian in a way not seen outside of actual communist countries and the elite positions are carefully gatekept by ideological opponents in ways that prior societies could not dream of. Meritocracy is so dead in many of these institutions at this point, while they routinely demand acts to show ideological conformity where silence is not an option. Outside of popularly elected positions in areas that are not completely captured by the ideological left, where Christians routinely DO run for office, get elected, and try to make change, what do you propose be done? Because those accused of being Christian Nationalists ARE doing that one, it's why the media and Democrats keep throwing it out as a label, to attack people whom they politically oppose.

3. They don't want to recapture institutions and would prefer to make their own new ones. Making new things is not bad but you are starting from zero, and the institutions you make won't produce as much as the old institutions until you build them up, and again I don't see any solution these people put forth to avoid future leftist infiltration like has happened before.

Again, HOW. This is nice to say and all, but it's handwaving away both the immediate needs to people (like parents looking to have traditional education for their children and people who have already been banished for wrongthink form the economy and professional field they were in) as well as the practical ways of doing this? Again, most universities are demanding ideological tests for even the lowliest of teaching positions, how should devout Christians handle dealing with those kinds of tests considering that lying is a sin and silence on these tests is as condemning as giving the wrong answer?

Meanwhile, you know who is most often called a Christian Nationalist by the media? Governor DeSantis. He is using elite power to force change in universities and education and attempted to recapture the elite institutions that fall under the power and authority he has. Since he's clearly not who you are talking about, who is? This is loops us back around to the initial problem. "Christian Nationalists" are not an actual group in the US, not on the Right, and anyone actually identifying as them either have been imbibing to much mainstream media and aren't actually aware of the real organization of the right, or are having a "then let me be evil" moment.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

@KilroywasNOTHere

I'm not a christian nationalist. I've not really hidden that fact and honestly @S'task has explained my position better than I could have,

 

[Marduk]

So I was watching a video that this Protestant redeemed zoomer made, and he listed 3 weaknesses of the U.S. Christian Nationalist movement.

1. They frequently retreat, they think that they just need to abandon cities, or higher universities to the left, and everything will handle itself. Yet the way Christianity performed one of it's biggest miracles and converted Rome was by going to and capturing the cities. The Apostles and their disciples did not just go out to the country pop out a bunch of kids and hope the kids would conquer the Empire.

2. They are anti elite. By doint this they are ensuring they won't be able to change much, Christians should try to get into elite positions to make change.

3. They don't want to recapture institutions and would prefer to make their own new ones. Making new things is not bad but you are starting from zero, and the institutions you make won't produce as much as the old institutions until you build them up, and again I don't see any solution these people put forth to avoid future leftist infiltration like has happened before.




So Christians of the sietch that I know of what are your thoughts?
@DarthOne @ATP @S'task @LordsFire

Sorry those are the only people off the top of my head who have professed Christian belief. But anyone else who is Christian feel free to come by or to call them over.

Christian Nationalism is a fringe movement given attention not nearly justified by its size and mostly in leftist media, so its probably a psyop of some sort or being turned into one for malicious political purposes of the side running said media. Yet another "designated enemy" but with another one of themes that the left absolutely loves to obsess about.
Lindsay did a pretty in depth look at what they are about and that's his conclusion.

 

[King Arts]

I'm not a christian nationalist. I've not really hidden that fact and honestly @S'task has explained my position better than I could have,

I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was not calling you a Christian nationalist. Everyone I tagged with the @ is someone who is a Christian. I tagged all the Christians here that I knew because well it's pretty obvious that only Christians could support Christian nationalists. If you are a Christian then there is an argument to make whether to support that or not, but if you aren't a Christian obviously you wouldn't support Christian nationalism.
So sorry again if you think I was mischaracterizing you it was not my intention.

Oh and I will respond to @S'task a little later I have errends to run.

 

[King Arts]

I'm not sure who he thinks as "Christian Nationalists". That term is... very bad because firstly, it's not a term that originated with any group or movement itself, rather, it was a label created by political and ideological opponents used to label pretty much every right leaning Christian in the US and while some may have unironically embraced it the vast majority of what the media and others call "Christian Nationalists" don't identify with that name nor are organized under it. By the broadest definition, I'm a Christian Nationalist, since I'm religiously Christian and right wing and believe that the laws should, to a degree, reflect my values. But, well, by that broad strokes definition of Christian Nationalist, you can call most on the Left "Progressive Nationalists" in that they are left wing and believe that the laws should reflect their values. That's the fundamental problem with the term, as it is meant as a derogatory attack term for some other group, and I have no way of knowing what specific group is being targeted, and, frankly, from other videos I've (tried) to watch from that producer while I respect him for his view, he desperately needs an editor to tighten up his dialogue and to get less rambly.

I mean in the video he does give descriptions of three types of people that get called "Christian Nationalist" The first is your evangelical types who fly the U.S. flag all over the place, and had a bunch of crazy things like saying Donald Trump is the Messiah come again or stuff like that This is the crazy group and doesen't really represent broad Christianity.

The second was Christians that are active in the world, like we vote we have opinions and we'd like for society to be more Christian and we vote using our Christian morals. This group much of the time does not self identify as Christian nationalists but the label was put upon us. I think you and I and most conservative Christians fall into this we get our morals from our faith and then we do what our morals say and want to have it be part of society and the law.

The third group I'm not familliar with, he gave names of people I don't know. But it sounds like it's people who were part of the second group until recently and after being called that decided to say "You know what let's be Christian nationalists."

As for editing yes he rambles but again it's mostly him talking about him and his thoughts, and also about Christian history. He's a pretty knowledgeable guy, I'd reccomend watching his channel.

So, I know of no Christian group that thinks we should abandoned cities and universities due to purely ideological reasons. The main thing I have hear pushed against is the sending of children to captured universities because, to be frank, they are not usually emotionally or spiritually mature enough to be witnesses in that environment, which is broadly speaking true. Likewise when your children are younger, raising them in cities is often not the best environment you can provide, and a parent's first responsibility is to their children and should ensure the best environment for their children to be raised in. If that means leaving urban areas for the suburbs and rural areas, I cannot fault them for that. If you think that means "giving up" on those areas, well, frankly, use your own children for it and don't lecture those of us with kids for doing what we think is best for them.

Beyond those areas though, what else is there to do? From a religious perspective the best one can do is treat the urban centers as missionary fields, and attempt to spread the good word.

Ironically he has another video related to this topic.


I get what you are saying about not wanting to send your kids into Satan's literal den. However coddling and sheltering them is not doing those kids any favors. Sometimes they might have to grow up quickly, and parents will need to prepare them. Many individual protestants I see don't do this. Think of our faith as our armor and weapons, some individual Christians will tell their kids about their armor and weapons but won't tell the kids about the weapons of the adversary.

We need to teach our kids our faith yes, but we also need to teach them what others believe, so that when they leave(because they aren't going to live with you forever that's a fact unless you plan to be a hermit and even then it's no gurantee) Because imagine if you are a fencer or martial artist you know the forms of your style of combat but if you don't know how the enemy fights you can be blindsided.

We can't shelter our kids, I'm not saying we have to throw them into the deep end or test their mettle to "see if their faith is true." But we do need to tell them about Islam, about Judaism, about Atheism, about Buddhism, about the trans ideology and Communism. They need to accurately understand what those things are so they know how to resist and won't be seduced.

We need to teach them our faith, and why our faith is true and others are false, and what those other false faiths say about us. This requires knowledge and study on behalf of the parents. It's hard to do as a single person I guess that's why I never was convinced by the American individual Protestant style of Christianity. A community will make the faith stronger.

That's a nice thing to say should be done, but HOW? The modern elite is severely anti-Christian in a way not seen outside of actual communist countries and the elite positions are carefully gatekept by ideological opponents in ways that prior societies could not dream of. Meritocracy is so dead in many of these institutions at this point, while they routinely demand acts to show ideological conformity where silence is not an option. Outside of popularly elected positions in areas that are not completely captured by the ideological left, where Christians routinely DO run for office, get elected, and try to make change, what do you propose be done? Because those accused of being Christian Nationalists ARE doing that one, it's why the media and Democrats keep throwing it out as a label, to attack people whom they politically oppose.

Again the way American protestants are organized it's impossible. You need an episcopal model. But I mean what you need is community look at Jews and Muslims.
Obviously the first Christians that try to break into those areas will have difficulty since they are starting at zero. But once they get in they need to discard the concept of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Once you are in a position of power or prestige help your fellow Christian. If you are in charge of hiring, and you have two options an A+ atheist or a C Christian from your Church. Hire the Christian, show favoritism it's not a sin you don't have to act in a manner to get the most efficiency or profit for the company. Basically you build up slowly and those who come after you are helped you you and so on and so on.

Again, HOW. This is nice to say and all, but it's handwaving away both the immediate needs to people (like parents looking to have traditional education for their children and people who have already been banished for wrongthink form the economy and professional field they were in) as well as the practical ways of doing this? Again, most universities are demanding ideological tests for even the lowliest of teaching positions, how should devout Christians handle dealing with those kinds of tests considering that lying is a sin and silence on these tests is as condemning as giving the wrong answer?

Meanwhile, you know who is most often called a Christian Nationalist by the media? Governor DeSantis. He is using elite power to force change in universities and education and attempted to recapture the elite institutions that fall under the power and authority he has. Since he's clearly not who you are talking about, who is? This is loops us back around to the initial problem. "Christian Nationalists" are not an actual group in the US, not on the Right, and anyone actually identifying as them either have been imbibing to much mainstream media and aren't actually aware of the real organization of the right, or are having a "then let me be evil" moment.

Again I have not advocated lying. Judaism and Islam are both religions that prohibit lying(they do have a work around to save their lives I don't know what Jews call it but Muslims have tawhid to protect their life and property)
But do that get in a small position and build up obviously an individual will do nothing, but a community working together helping each other will get pretty far and you'd be surprised.

Also DeSantis falls under the 2nd description I gave he is a Christian who votes/legislates based on his morality(all people legislate based on their morality) and his morality comes from Christianity his faith. Now we can't have religious tests, but the governor or president can appoint people he personally likes to positions he wants, and if those people share his belief, politics, and faith well that's just the way it is.

 

[S'task]

I get what you are saying about not wanting to send your kids into Satan's literal den. However coddling and sheltering them is not doing those kids any favors. Sometimes they might have to grow up quickly, and parents will need to prepare them. Many individual protestants I see don't do this. Think of our faith as our armor and weapons, some individual Christians will tell their kids about their armor and weapons but won't tell the kids about the weapons of the adversary.

We need to teach our kids our faith yes, but we also need to teach them what others believe, so that when they leave(because they aren't going to live with you forever that's a fact unless you plan to be a hermit and even then it's no gurantee) Because imagine if you are a fencer or martial artist you know the forms of your style of combat but if you don't know how the enemy fights you can be blindsided.

We can't shelter our kids, I'm not saying we have to throw them into the deep end or test their mettle to "see if their faith is true." But we do need to tell them about Islam, about Judaism, about Atheism, about Buddhism, about the trans ideology and Communism. They need to accurately understand what those things are so they know how to resist and won't be seduced.

We need to teach them our faith, and why our faith is true and others are false, and what those other false faiths say about us. This requires knowledge and study on behalf of the parents. It's hard to do as a single person I guess that's why I never was convinced by the American individual Protestant style of Christianity. A community will make the faith stronger.

I'm the wrong person to try this argument against because unlike other Millennials, who were sent into that den, I was homeschooled from 1st to 12th grade. In that time I was educated about all those things (or, rather, those equivalent things in the 1980s and 90s, transgender ideology obviously wasn't really a thing back then, as that's actually a fairly recent development), and how to answer them... and didn't need to be thrown into the schools to do it.

When I compare the results to many of my peers who went to Churches with me but were otherwise in public schools... well... I'm still devoutly Christian and conservative, while many of those peers whom I still have contact with have succumbed to the world, in large part because they got more of a secular education than one steeped in traditional values and education. And this is not something you can entirely blame their parents for, as how much time do parents have to counter the education from schools? School days are typically 6 to 8 hours, add in 8 hours for sleep, a few hours for housekeeping, chores, homework and meals and even the most dedicated parents end up with much less influence on their children than their peers and teachers. And this was in the 1990s, the height of the Religious Right with many very public displays of religiosity where there was still active pushback in public schools against anti-Christian displays by students... things that have long since been eradicated and suppressed.

Homeschooling and religious private schooling need not be "sheltering" kids, it in fact instead allows proper training and education in apologetics and how to respond to the ideology and arguments of the world. Most Christians in the 1980s and 90s followed your idea of just throwing their kids in to the world, not sheltering them, and thinking they should be salt and light. Look what that did to the Millennial generation. Repeating the same thing now, when schools and the world are even further divorced from Christian morality than they were in the 90s and expecting them to be witnesses and somehow coming out unscathed is like sending them off on an interstellar voyage in 40k on a ship without a Geller field. They might come back, but they not come back how you want them.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was not calling you a Christian nationalist. Everyone I tagged with the @ is someone who is a Christian. I tagged all the Christians here that I knew because well it's pretty obvious that only Christians could support Christian nationalists. If you are a Christian then there is an argument to make whether to support that or not, but if you aren't a Christian obviously you wouldn't support Christian nationalism.
So sorry again if you think I was mischaracterizing you it was not my intention.

Oh and I will respond to @S'task a little later I have errends to run.

It's not that I'm not a Christian (though I'd definitely argue I have my problems) it's just that my beliefs is that the very cornerstone of Christian nationalist (God is going to establish a kingdom here on earth and use America/Western Europe as the basis for New Jerusalem) is off base so much show that it's like comparing apples to oranges. So I don't really see myself having an effective dog in the fight as they'd be fighting in two different arenas. Heck I'm ONLY protestant by virtue of not being Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, but that's where my commonality ends with them.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Trying to recapture institutions is a fruitless endeavor. The death cult have taken control of our institutions, government, academia, corporations, internet forums, etc, and wield their power to punish Christians who poke their heads up. They use "separation of church and state" as a bludgeon against Christian while worshipping moloch and mammon and allowing satanic shrines to be erected in government buildings. The battle there was lost long ago, when prayer was banned in school. Trying to evangelize to your fellow students gets you expelled, or your coworkers gets you fired, or banned from forums. The death cult has succeeded in inoculating much of the Western world from Christianity. So you're forced to evangelize in more obscure places.

Sending your children in to evangelize in the strongholds of the enemy is suicidal. I've seen several of my once Christian childhood friends and cousins turn away from the faith and become SJWs and death cultists once they were sent alone to public school or college to be pressured and brainwashed day after day. Meanwhile, me and my friends who were homeschooled were inoculated enough against the world to survive it.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Trying to recapture institutions is a fruitless endeavor. The death cult have taken control of our institutions, government, academia, corporations, internet forums, etc, and wield their power to punish Christians who poke their heads up. They use "separation of church and state" as a bludgeon against Christian while worshipping moloch and mammon and allowing satanic shrines to be erected in government buildings. The battle there was lost long ago, when prayer was banned in school. Trying to evangelize to your fellow students gets you expelled, or your coworkers gets you fired, or banned from forums. The death cult has succeeded in inoculating much of the Western world from Christianity. So you're forced to evangelize in more obscure places.

Sending your children in to evangelize in the strongholds of the enemy is suicidal. I've seen several of my once Christian childhood friends and cousins turn away from the faith and become SJWs and death cultists once they were sent alone to public school or college to be pressured and brainwashed day after day. Meanwhile, me and my friends who were homeschooled were inoculated enough against the world to survive it.

You wont recapture them. They why they have to be destroyed. Thats why you cant be a conservative, because there is little worth conserving.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Trying to recapture institutions is a fruitless endeavor. The death cult have taken control of our institutions, government, academia, corporations, internet forums, etc,

You wont recapture them. They why they have to be destroyed. Thats why you cant be a conservative, because there is little worth conserving.

I do my part every day in destroying institutions by posting on this internet forum.

 

[ATP]

I'm the wrong person to try this argument against because unlike other Millennials, who were sent into that den, I was homeschooled from 1st to 12th grade. In that time I was educated about all those things (or, rather, those equivalent things in the 1980s and 90s, transgender ideology obviously wasn't really a thing back then, as that's actually a fairly recent development), and how to answer them... and didn't need to be thrown into the schools to do it.

When I compare the results to many of my peers who went to Churches with me but were otherwise in public schools... well... I'm still devoutly Christian and conservative, while many of those peers whom I still have contact with have succumbed to the world, in large part because they got more of a secular education than one steeped in traditional values and education. And this is not something you can entirely blame their parents for, as how much time do parents have to counter the education from schools? School days are typically 6 to 8 hours, add in 8 hours for sleep, a few hours for housekeeping, chores, homework and meals and even the most dedicated parents end up with much less influence on their children than their peers and teachers. And this was in the 1990s, the height of the Religious Right with many very public displays of religiosity where there was still active pushback in public schools against anti-Christian displays by students... things that have long since been eradicated and suppressed.

Homeschooling and religious private schooling need not be "sheltering" kids, it in fact instead allows proper training and education in apologetics and how to respond to the ideology and arguments of the world. Most Christians in the 1980s and 90s followed your idea of just throwing their kids in to the world, not sheltering them, and thinking they should be salt and light. Look what that did to the Millennial generation. Repeating the same thing now, when schools and the world are even further divorced from Christian morality than they were in the 90s and expecting them to be witnesses and somehow coming out unscathed is like sending them off on an interstellar voyage in 40k on a ship without a Geller field. They might come back, but they not come back how you want them.

I think,that you are right.We need homeschooling for normal families.And creating new institutions,and ignore those who become woke.Problem is - at least in Europe it is no longer possible.

State would made your children woke.

 

[DarthOne]

This is a major distraction from the real scandal engulfing the Catholic Church at the moment, which is that major figures, including cardinals and bishops, have funneling millions of euros to NGOs that are bringing migrants to Europe. The Church is actively conspiring in the demographic replacement of Europe's population, perhaps even with the blessing of Pope Francis.
I wrote a short essay on this on my Subst*ck yesterday. Here it is:

***

Nobody is coming to save you.

The police aren't coming to save you.

The army isn't coming to save you.

The Church isn't coming to save you.

The simple truth is, none of the supposed guardians of traditional values, the institutions that we're told will stand up — one of these days! — and defend us from the onslaught of liberalism, globohomo or whatever you want to call it — not one of these institutions is going to do so. In fact, they're going to do the opposite. They're doing the opposite. Right now.

Don't believe me? Try this on for size.

A new investigation from La Verita, an Italian newspaper, has caused scandal in Italy after revealing that a number of Italian dioceses have been directly funding Mediterranea, an NGO responsible for bringing illegal migrants into Europe by boat. These dioceses have contributed over two million euros to the NGO, with some payments ending up directly in the personal accounts of pro-immigration activists. Tens of thousands of migrants now enter Italy illegally each year, mainly across the sea from North Africa. Over 20,000 migrants landed on Italy's shores in the first three months of this year alone, with large numbers coming via the small island of Lampedusa, situated conveniently close to the North African coast.

The scandal emerged as a result of an official investigation into Mediterranea's activities, after a 2020 incident involving the ship Mare Jonio, which landed on Sicily and disembarked 27 migrants who had been taken from a Danish supply ship, weeks before. Mediterranea was given 135,000 euros by Maersk, the owner of the supply ship. The company claims that payment was an unrelated donation, but the authorities believe it was a direct payoff for taking the migrants and therefore in violation of Italian law. Messages were then intercepted which revealed that prominent figures in the Italian Catholic Church were giving money to the NGO. These included Cardinal Matteo Zuppi of Bologna and Archbishop Corrado Lorefice of Palermo. Cardinal Jean-Claude Hollerich of Luxembourg also donated 25,000 euros.

In one of these messages, Luca Casarini, the activist at the centre of the scandal, openly bragged that he no longer had to work because of the Church's benevolence. Casarini has been close to the current Pope since at least 2019, when to the astonishment of many Casarini was invited to speak at the Vatican's synod, despite the fact that he had very publicly stated his disdain for the Church (which he voiced again in the messages intercepted by the authorities). Some within the Church are now wondering whether the payments made to Mediterranea were made with Pope Francis's approval; although few are likely to assert this outright. Given time, and further evidence, they may.

You can read more about the scandal here. For me, at least, this is proof perfect of my unhappy thesis. It's not that the Catholic Church is just sympathetic to the hundreds of thousands of illegal migrants who cross into European territory every year. We know that already, and it's bad enough: a massive, unprecedented betrayal of the Church's historical role in shaping and protecting Europe's distinct identity. But no, it's even worse. The church is aiding the traffickers who are bringing the migrants to Europe. The Church is an active agent in the collapse of European civilisation — the civilisation it helped to create.

Like I said, the Church isn't coming to save you.

Oswald Spengler famously wrote, in Man and Technics, that "optimism is cowardice." As far as I'm concerned, it's naivety, not optimism, that's the real cowardice. Of course there are still good people in the Catholic Church — Archbishop Vigano, for example — just as there are still good people in the police, the army, the navy, the air force, the universities, the schools, Washington, local government and any other institution you could care to name. But the institutions themselves are all hopelessly compromised, and we have to recognise it if we ever want to make a truly meaningful change. Even the Catholic Church, which has probably the most conservative mandate of all — to represent the truth of God's eternal kingdom, in opposition to all earthly trends and ephemera — is now captured, hopelessly it seems.

As my friend Auron MacIntyre likes to say, "Liberalism will hollow out your religion and wear its skin like a trophy."

Amen.

The question really is how, or indeed whether, we can still work within the frameworks of existing institutions. I'd be inclined to say it's unavoidable. But then how do we avoid being neutralised, or even captured, ourselves? I'm not sure I have a good answer yet.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

I wish I could find the article, but it made a very good case that the palace coup that saw benedict step down was in effect a colour revolution backed by american intelligence and the democrat party. (is there even a difference now?)

 

[ATP]

Nothing new.

Current pope openly said,that replacing european with migrants is fine,becouse it happened once after Roman Empire fall.
If he simply gave up on Europe,i could unlive with it.

But,sadly he also is praing to demons like Pachamama,and that is one bridge to far for me.

 

[King Arts]

I'm the wrong person to try this argument against because unlike other Millennials, who were sent into that den, I was homeschooled from 1st to 12th grade. In that time I was educated about all those things (or, rather, those equivalent things in the 1980s and 90s, transgender ideology obviously wasn't really a thing back then, as that's actually a fairly recent development), and how to answer them... and didn't need to be thrown into the schools to do it.

When I compare the results to many of my peers who went to Churches with me but were otherwise in public schools... well... I'm still devoutly Christian and conservative, while many of those peers whom I still have contact with have succumbed to the world, in large part because they got more of a secular education than one steeped in traditional values and education. And this is not something you can entirely blame their parents for, as how much time do parents have to counter the education from schools? School days are typically 6 to 8 hours, add in 8 hours for sleep, a few hours for housekeeping, chores, homework and meals and even the most dedicated parents end up with much less influence on their children than their peers and teachers. And this was in the 1990s, the height of the Religious Right with many very public displays of religiosity where there was still active pushback in public schools against anti-Christian displays by students... things that have long since been eradicated and suppressed.

Homeschooling and religious private schooling need not be "sheltering" kids, it in fact instead allows proper training and education in apologetics and how to respond to the ideology and arguments of the world. Most Christians in the 1980s and 90s followed your idea of just throwing their kids in to the world, not sheltering them, and thinking they should be salt and light. Look what that did to the Millennial generation. Repeating the same thing now, when schools and the world are even further divorced from Christian morality than they were in the 90s and expecting them to be witnesses and somehow coming out unscathed is like sending them off on an interstellar voyage in 40k on a ship without a Geller field. They might come back, but they not come back how you want them.

I'm glad it worked for you. But like you said a parent has many duties and a limited ammount of hours in the day to handle it. It's unrealistic to think all parents can teach their children good academically it's much more easier to have it standardized in a Christian school.

It's not that I'm not a Christian (though I'd definitely argue I have my problems) it's just that my beliefs is that the very cornerstone of Christian nationalist (God is going to establish a kingdom here on earth and use America/Western Europe as the basis for New Jerusalem) is off base so much show that it's like comparing apples to oranges. So I don't really see myself having an effective dog in the fight as they'd be fighting in two different arenas. Heck I'm ONLY protestant by virtue of not being Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, but that's where my commonality ends with them.

I'm not one of those fundies that spouts psedu heretical nonsense.

The reason I'm favorable towards Christian nationalism is because I am a nationalist I like my nation. And I am a Christian it determines my morality.

It's the same reason I support laws against slavery, why have laws limiting people from doing things like that. I would say that it's because under a Christian thought it's a sin to take a Just free man and enslave him, so I support the government using force to prevent people from doing the immoral action of enslaving good free people. So then since most Christians are in favor of legislating against slavery why not for other things like blasphamy or other sins?

From a Christian perspective blasphamy is worse than other sins.

Trying to recapture institutions is a fruitless endeavor. The death cult have taken control of our institutions, government, academia, corporations, internet forums, etc, and wield their power to punish Christians who poke their heads up. They use "separation of church and state" as a bludgeon against Christian while worshipping moloch and mammon and allowing satanic shrines to be erected in government buildings. The battle there was lost long ago, when prayer was banned in school. Trying to evangelize to your fellow students gets you expelled, or your coworkers gets you fired, or banned from forums. The death cult has succeeded in inoculating much of the Western world from Christianity. So you're forced to evangelize in more obscure places.

Sending your children in to evangelize in the strongholds of the enemy is suicidal. I've seen several of my once Christian childhood friends and cousins turn away from the faith and become SJWs and death cultists once they were sent alone to public school or college to be pressured and brainwashed day after day. Meanwhile, me and my friends who were homeschooled were inoculated enough against the world to survive it.

Wow I never said anything about going to evangelize to the stronghold of the enemy. That seems like it would lead little fruit. I said that Christians should go to achieve secular power and wealth(which you need to go to high level institutions to get) and then use that power and wealth to benefit other Christians.

Also yes those powers are hostile to Christians now, but we can persevere and take them over, either directly or by letting another group take them over who secularists don't have a hate boner towards.

Nothing new.

Current pope openly said,that replacing european with migrants is fine,becouse it happened once after Roman Empire fall.
If he simply gave up on Europe,i could unlive with it.

But,sadly he also is praing to demons like Pachamama,and that is one bridge to far for me.

Actually I disagree with that guy no this isn't a distraction. Allowing heresy like "gay blessings" is much worse than allowing more immigrants into a nation. The Catholic Church might actually die because of Bergoglio's heresy, if it was merely an demographic transfer that has happened in history in Rome, in middle ages Europe, all sorts of other people. But a betrayal of the values of the faith that could end it. Christians could survive Muslims taking over Europe, they can't survive their own Church going suicidal because of wokeness towards sodomy.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I'm not one of those fundies that spouts psedu heretical nonsense.

The reason I'm favorable towards Christian nationalism is because I am a nationalist I like my nation. And I am a Christian it determines my morality.

It's the same reason I support laws against slavery, why have laws limiting people from doing things like that. I would say that it's because under a Christian thought it's a sin to take a Just free man and enslave him, so I support the government using force to prevent people from doing the immoral action of enslaving good free people. So then since most Christians are in favor of legislating against slavery why not for other things like blasphamy or other sins?

From a Christian perspective blasphamy is worse than other sins.

I'm not that way. For me empires have three duties. To keep the economy going, to keep the boarders orderly, and protect the people in times of war and considering how bad they are at doing that I'm not sure I trust them to do even those things. So pardon me for being a bit sceptical with the idea of then deciding to be the mouthpiece and sword of God
Even the whole outlawing slavery is debatable at best. Jim Crow laws existed for a century after and blacks and the working class are still in slavery via perpetual debt and welfare. Bear in mind I'm very much return to tribe/small community.