Cities that could've been or could have been even greater

WolfBear

Well-known member
Germany failed to see that Poland was a useful Buffer state that kept the Russian bear away. They suffered years of partial occupation much of it brutal for doing so.

Do you mean decades of Communist rule in East Germany?

And Yeah, honestly, if I was a German, I wouldn't have cared all that much about Danzig and the Polish Corridor (Alaska is separated from the US and we don't need a corridor for it!). I'd have simply wanted good relations with Poland. Instead Germany decided to gamble big and subsequently lost big, perhaps a bit like Russia is doing today, when it could have simply outright annexed the Donbass in February 2022 but instead decided to make a move on all of Ukraine because it thought that it could.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Do you mean decades of Communist rule in East Germany?

And Yeah, honestly, if I was a German, I wouldn't have cared all that much about Danzig and the Polish Corridor (Alaska is separated from the US and we don't need a corridor for it!). I'd have simply wanted good relations with Poland. Instead Germany decided to gamble big and subsequently lost big, perhaps a bit like Russia is doing today, when it could have simply outright annexed the Donbass in February 2022 but instead decided to make a move on all of Ukraine because it thought that it could.

It wont stop at Ukraine their going to go for everything the soviet union had and half of poland, thats why were sending in all of the weapons.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
It wont stop at Ukraine their going to go for everything the soviet union had and half of poland, thats why were sending in all of the weapons.

I don't know if it will stop at Ukraine or not, but in any case, I don't like the idea of countries getting conquered for their human capital against the will of these countries' inhabitants.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
I don't know if it will stop at Ukraine or not, but in any case, I don't like the idea of countries getting conquered for their human capital against the will of these countries' inhabitants.

That's been most of human history.

The sad thing about Russia and I think they know this. Is that they really could have won the cold war if the dice had landed differently. The united states was an isolationist power that didn't under stand jack shit about the outside world. They were routinly outplayed in the spy game and there were loads of collaberators who would gleefully sell out their own country because of the 'cause'

And they still lost, not because of the west, not because of america but because they self destructed, their fall from grace is entirely their fault and their country is dying, and when it falls no one will feel bad for them or sorry for them.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
That's been most of human history.

The sad thing about Russia and I think they know this. Is that they really could have won the cold war if the dice had landed differently. The united states was an isolationist power that didn't under stand jack shit about the outside world. They were routinly outplayed in the spy game and there were loads of collaberators who would gleefully sell out their own country because of the 'cause'

And they still lost, not because of the west, not because of america but because they self destructed, their fall from grace is entirely their fault and their country is dying, and when it falls no one will feel bad for them or sorry for them.

Russia could have won the Cold War if they weren't Communist and if they would have avoided the extreme demographic devastation that they suffered during the 20th century. One way to do this would have been for Russia to somehow avoid one or both of its revolutions in 1917.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Russia could have won the Cold War if they weren't Communist and if they would have avoided the extreme demographic devastation that they suffered during the 20th century. One way to do this would have been for Russia to somehow avoid one or both of its revolutions in 1917.

The russians have been screaming their the third rome for hundreds of years but never considered that they might be the second carthrage.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The russians have been screaming their the third rome for hundreds of years but never considered that they might be the second carthrage.

Yass! Would we (the US) be the Third Rome in such a scenario? If so, then where is our homoeroticism? Or is our LGBTQ+fetishism enough to cover this lol? ;)
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Had Poland succeeded in restoring its 1772 borders after the end of WWI and in permanently sustaining this arrangement afterwards, cities in western Poland such as Warsaw, Lodz, and Krakow could have had a significantly larger population right now due to the fact that there could have been a lot of Ukrainian and Belarusian migration from eastern Poland into these more developed and likely wealthier western Polish cities.
Would Poland have allowed that though? They weren't exactly known for treating those minorities...or really any minorities well or equally.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Do you mean decades of Communist rule in East Germany?

And Yeah, honestly, if I was a German, I wouldn't have cared all that much about Danzig and the Polish Corridor (Alaska is separated from the US and we don't need a corridor for it!). I'd have simply wanted good relations with Poland. Instead Germany decided to gamble big and subsequently lost big, perhaps a bit like Russia is doing today, when it could have simply outright annexed the Donbass in February 2022 but instead decided to make a move on all of Ukraine because it thought that it could.
Alaska is about the same size in area as Germany, France, The United Kingdom, and Japan combined. It's seperated from the lower 48 by Canada.

A flight from London to Moscow is about 1,554 miles. The US-Canada border is about 5,525 miles. The US-Mexico border: 1,954 miles.

At its narrowest the Polish Corridor was a bit less than 19 miles wide. Europeans and Americans (in the continental sense, not the "you're from the US" sense) have very different ideas of what "that's a long way" means.

EDIT: St. Petersburg to Rostov-on-Don is comparable to St. Louis to Boston by car. Someone doing the latter only needs two highways and about 19hrs.
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
Didn't Poland have free internal migration? I always assumed it did; am I wrong?
The pre-war government also restricted the rights of people who declared Ukrainian nationality, belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church and inhabited the Eastern Borderlands of the Second Polish Republic.[46][47][48] Ukrainian was restricted in every field possible, especially in governmental institutions, and the term "Ruthenian" was enforced in an attempt to ban the use of the term "Ukrainian".[49] Ukrainians were categorised as uneducated second-class peasants or third world people, and rarely settled outside the Eastern Borderland region due to the prevailing Ukrainophobia and restrictions imposed. Numerous attempts at restoring the Ukrainian state were suppressed and any existent violence or terrorism initiated by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists was emphasised to create the image of a "brutal Eastern savage".[50]
Theoretically maybe, but in practice no.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Also, @sillygoose, had Poland indefinitely remained a part of Russia, it could have then received a lot of migration more easily from the East Slavic lands as well as the Caucasus and Central Asia, no? In such a scenario, Poland would have been one of the most developed parts of Russia and thus possibly a very attractive internal migration destination.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Also, @sillygoose, had Poland indefinitely remained a part of Russia, it could have then received a lot of migration more easily from the East Slavic lands as well as the Caucasus and Central Asia, no? In such a scenario, Poland would have been one of the most developed parts of Russia and thus possibly a very attractive internal migration destination.

yes but it means being a part of Russia....

Which in general means your not going to have a good time.
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
Let's get back to the TOPIC at hand: cities that had potential, but got jacked up horribly:
Jackson, Mississippi
Atlanta, Georgia: homeless crisis, violent crime, etc
Detroit, Michigan
Saint Louis, Missouri: violent crime
Oakland, California
San Francisco, California
NYC, New York State: DeBlasio fucked this city up. Adams will be lucky not to get recalled in 2023
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Had Poland succeeded in restoring its 1772 borders after the end of WWI and in permanently sustaining this arrangement afterwards, cities in western Poland such as Warsaw, Lodz, and Krakow could have had a significantly larger population right now due to the fact that there could have been a lot of Ukrainian and Belarusian migration from eastern Poland into these more developed and likely wealthier western Polish cities.
Honestly? It's enough to avoid WWII, or better. Poland wins the September Campaign. Then those cities would obviously be bigger because they wouldn't have to rebuild from the rubble and Poland wouldn't have to rebuild its population.
Without WWII, Poland's population should have been at least twice as large.
Honestly? I would avoid like hell relying on Wikipedia. The amount of bullshit you can read there makes a person catch his head.
I don't hide the fact that the foolish policy of Sanation, which didn't know what to do with the Ukrainians, ultimately led to the catastrophe during the war, but these balances about poor Jews and modeling Nazi Germany for anti-Jewish laws are sussed out and twist the facts. Only what they did is presented, but there is no explanation of why they did it.
There is no explanation for where the division in society and the wave of anti-Semitism came from.
The same goes for Ukrainians.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Honestly? It's enough to avoid WWII, or better. Poland wins the September Campaign. Then those cities would obviously be bigger because they wouldn't have to rebuild from the rubble and Poland wouldn't have to rebuild its population.
Without WWII, Poland's population should have been at least twice as large.

Would Hitler's September campaign have looked like Putin's special military operation in Ukraine in this TL?
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Would Hitler's September campaign have looked like Putin's special military operation in Ukraine in this TL?
I do not think so, rather, it would be a miracle on the Vistula 2.0 but from the west, after a deep rally all the way to Warsaw, an effective counter-attack from above the Bzura River by the "Poznan" Army smashes the infantry divisions following the Panzer Divisions, cutting off Werhmath's armored fist from the rest of the army, after which they are destroyed in the cauldron. The campaign then turns into a dragging wrestle over the next months, as the Soviets do not enter, allowing the French Army to strike Germany from the west in December at the latest, ending an era of unequal struggle.

And to make it clearer, our leadership does not panic, Rydz-Smigly remains until the end in Warsaw, Rómmmel does not leave the command of the "Lodz" Army. Well, and most importantly, the entire modernization schedule is pushed back a year, so in this September 1939 we have what OLT planned to have in 1940.
Such a COP is created a year earlier than OTL and as soon as the threat begins it is put at full capacity without regard to cost.

edit Of course, the whole thing is a highly simplified scenario. The number of things that should be changed is huge.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I do not think so, rather, it would be a miracle on the Vistula 2.0 but from the west, after a deep rally all the way to Warsaw, an effective counter-attack from above the Bzura River by the "Poznan" Army smashes the infantry divisions following the Panzer Divisions, cutting off Werhmath's armored fist from the rest of the army, after which they are destroyed in the cauldron. The campaign then turns into a dragging wrestle over the next months, as the Soviets do not enter, allowing the French Army to strike Germany from the west in December at the latest, ending an era of unequal struggle.

And to make it clearer, our leadership does not panic, Rydz-Smigly remains until the end in Warsaw, Rómmmel does not leave the command of the "Lodz" Army. Well, and most importantly, the entire modernization schedule is pushed back a year, so in this September 1939 we have what OLT planned to have in 1940.
Such a COP is created a year earlier than OTL and as soon as the threat begins it is put at full capacity without regard to cost.

So, similar to the Ukrainian miracle at Kiev earlier this year? ;)


By the way, in this TL, the Soviet Union avoids collapsing later on since its most subversive territories, specifically the Baltics and central + western Ukraine, never actually get annexed to it, right?
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
So, similar to the Ukrainian miracle at Kiev earlier this year? ;)


By the way, in this TL, the Soviet Union avoids collapsing later on since its most subversive territories, specifically the Baltics and central + western Ukraine, never actually get annexed to it, right?
1 Not very, it's one thing to conduct a rally on false information and another to have a deep hit that went so fast that a gap was created.
Well, and from Belarus to Kiev is closer than from Silesia to Warsaw. Even if it were possible to move the Poznañ Army and block the march from the main axis of attack, there are still forces from the north that threaten the city.

2 No, the Soviets are going down anyway. Either from the war of the anti-communist coalition after the fall of Germany or by themselves but much faster because the party does not have the myth of the Great Patriotic War by which this system will breathe away faster.
 

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