Cities that could've been or could have been even greater

WolfBear

Well-known member
1 Not very, it's one thing to conduct a rally on false information and another to have a deep hit that went so fast that a gap was created.
Well, and from Belarus to Kiev is closer than from Silesia to Warsaw. Even if it were possible to move the Poznañ Army and block the march from the main axis of attack, there are still forces from the north that threaten the city.

2 No, the Soviets are going down anyway. Either from the war of the anti-communist coalition after the fall of Germany or by themselves but much faster because the party does not have the myth of the Great Patriotic War by which this system will breathe away faster.

Why exactly would there be a war against the Soviet Union after Germany is defeated in this TL?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Also, @sillygoose, had Poland indefinitely remained a part of Russia, it could have then received a lot of migration more easily from the East Slavic lands as well as the Caucasus and Central Asia, no? In such a scenario, Poland would have been one of the most developed parts of Russia and thus possibly a very attractive internal migration destination.
Theoretically assuming Russia didn't allow Warsaw self governance as was promised before WW1. And assuming Poles accept large numbers of immigrants from the East, which they could very well view as Russian colonization and resist even more.

Interesting. But in theory this could change under future, more liberal Polish governments if they view this as a good way to help assimilation and to help nip Ukrainian separatism in the bud.
It would have to be a different government, because the dictatorship of colonels was anything but liberal and quite unstable. Also ideologically very Polish supremacist, though that is understandable given the division of the country and very recent reconstitution. They were much more interested in suppression rather than integration.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Theoretically assuming Russia didn't allow Warsaw self governance as was promised before WW1. And assuming Poles accept large numbers of immigrants from the East, which they could very well view as Russian colonization and resist even more.


It would have to be a different government, because the dictatorship of colonels was anything but liberal and quite unstable. Also ideologically very Polish supremacist, though that is understandable given the division of the country and very recent reconstitution. They were much more interested in suppression rather than integration.

Would self-governance include the power to restrict migration from the rest of Russia? And who exactly in Russia promised Warsaw self-government before WWI?

Yeah, so Poland would very likely have to return to democracy before this would ever actually occur.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Why exactly would there be a war against the Soviet Union after Germany is defeated in this TL?
The eternal need to revolutionize the West, read unload the tension after endless armaments, and this machine they built without WWII had to go. It didn't start OTL because it was destroyed by the Germans who uprooted it.\
And then there were nuclear weapons and after the fun.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The eternal need to revolutionize the West, read unload the tension after endless armaments, and this machine they built without WWII had to go. It didn't start OTL because it was destroyed by the Germans who uprooted it.

So, in real life, if France doesn't fall in 1940, the West is going to wage a war against the Soviet Union after defeating Nazi Germany?
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Are you sure? Stalin strikes me as being relatively cautious.
Yes, he was cautious but not stupid. He does not build this army of his for show you know? He wants to lead the Red Army westward, if he didn't want to he wouldn't have pushed so much forced industrialization devastating Russia and Ukraine and the rest of the territories from everything for the military.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Yes, he was cautious but not stupid. He does not build this army of his for show you know? He wants to lead the Red Army westward, if he didn't want to he wouldn't have pushed so much forced industrialization devastating Russia and Ukraine and the rest of the territories from everything for the military.

So, we get 1991 several decades earlier?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Also, @Batrix2070, do you think that there is any realistic chance that we would see an EU-style union/confederation develop in Europe without one or both World Wars? I can think of Mitteleuropa if Germany wins WWI, but what else?

 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Would self-governance include the power to restrict migration from the rest of Russia? And who exactly in Russia promised Warsaw self-government before WWI?

Yeah, so Poland would very likely have to return to democracy before this would ever actually occur.
TBH I don't remember if it was even mentioned who proposed it. Poland lost any of its autonomy in 1905 as a result of uprisings that lasted into 1907, so Russia instead took much more direct control while allowing the Polish language to be taught in more places. It might have simply been a ploy to get nationalistic Polish groups to calm down and they had no intention of ever allowing it, but it is hard to say.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
TBH I don't remember if it was even mentioned who proposed it. Poland lost any of its autonomy in 1905 as a result of uprisings that lasted into 1907, so Russia instead took much more direct control while allowing the Polish language to be taught in more places. It might have simply been a ploy to get nationalistic Polish groups to calm down and they had no intention of ever allowing it, but it is hard to say.

Allowing the Polish language != allowing Polish independence.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Would self-governance include the power to restrict migration from the rest of Russia? And who exactly in Russia promised Warsaw self-government before WWI?
Found more details here, citation 33:

Unfortunately you'll have to get the book in question for the details, they aren't in the article, but it is on libgen. Will send you the link
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Found more details here, citation 33:

Unfortunately you'll have to get the book in question for the details, they aren't in the article, but it is on libgen. Will send you the link

[33] Kappeler, The Russian Empire, 213–46, 328–69.

This? If so, I'll get around to looking at it in due time. :)
 

bintananth

behind a desk
The City of Saint Louis did that CRAZINESS?
Yup, in 1876.


You can sorta figure out the maze of municipal boundries in the county by noticing the edges of street repairs.

EDIT: If someone hands you a Missouri ID with 63105 as part their street address they're either quite wealthy or a WashU student. The bus stop on the SW corner of Wydown and Big Bend was a gazebo made of stone that was part of someone's yard when I went to WashU. The Wydown median west of Big Bend ... country clubs might have trouble keeping their golf course that manicured.

Yes, it gets that petty.
 
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