almostinsane
Well-known member
But is this a hill worth dying on? I don't know if Confederate flag or statues are popular in the South anymore.
The line to be drawn is when it comes to non-Confederate statues and heritage.
Confederate Flags banned in the Military
- Thread starter Zachowon
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The line to be drawn is when it comes to non-Confederate statues and heritage.
Boil Weevil-'cough'-'cough'
These statement's of 'We know what they fought for' are ridiculous, people like to treat the CSA and those who fought for are a part of a hive mind of evil when the fact is that the average man who fought for the South were mostly poor illiterates with no access to newspapers or political pieces detailing the point of view of the federal government, even those that could read primarily only had access to papers run by the rich of the South mainly plantation owners who wouldn't fight and all of the above isn't counting conscription or the fact that a lot of people early on simply joined up to fight the glorious war that was romanticized by both sides up until that point.
My point overall is that in the modern age with a host of different media outlets to give different ideological perspectives on the various situations we face it's criminally easy to criticize the Southerners as 'They should have known better' when in reality who you fought for in the Civil War doesn't boil down to 'Slavery good or bad?' but the sources and media you had access to which lead you to make a decision which at that time were biased, Heck in some cases I am sure who you fought for in the ACW boils down to which recruitment station was closer.
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D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Um?
the southern soldier fought to defend his home from Yankee agression?
This wasn’t something that he did because he was mislead-he did it because the god damn Yankees were burning and ravaging in the south. The war was fought almost entirely on southern soil, destroying southern communities, threatening southern lives.
Jesus Fucking Christ-the anti south propaganda in this thread is fucking mind blowing. If I wanted that I would have gone to SB or AH.com.
Ask the local people if they want the statues to come down.
This thread is saturated with anti south propaganda you could find literally anywhere in the media or internet today.
That’s a nonsensical line and Antifa and BLM have already crossed it.
Saying “well the confederacy was bad, but please don’t attack the founders” is everything that is wrong with modern American “conservatism”.
almostinsane
Well-known member
That is certainly something that can be acknowledged. We can acknowledge the bravery and the viewpoint of ordinary southerners.
However, it can't be denied that the Confederacy was founded with the express purpose of preserving slavery.
I don't think we are incapable of acknowledging both of these truths.
This ignores that people did pay attention to news and gossip back then.
Your 'appeal to ignorance' does not hold water when you consider pre-ACW politics was not forgotten by those fighting. They knew POTUS was an abolitionist, what that meant, and that he was not on the ballot in most Southern states.
Let me just put it simply, so you Confederate apologists get it, crystal clear: there were no heros in the Confederacy aside from Sam Houston, and that is only because he tried to keep Texas in the Union. The only heros in the South were the Union holdouts, Union spies, and places like the Free State of Jones.
The quickest way to lose parts of the middle is to make defending the Confederacy the hill the GOP and Trump die on. It would validate the Far-Left like nothing else could, and destroy most of the centrist support the GOP has.
Did I say otherwise dude? If not you are completely misunderstanding my statements.
The reason the average southerner who did not own slaves and yet still fought for the CSA as a government that offered them little other than maintain the status quo economically was due to the media sources of The South being heavily slanted to the point were the only opinion pieces were pro confederate and that in turn lead to opinions being colored on top of the obvious reasons you gave for defending their homes.
But the fact is that if your family was pro union it was unlikely your home would be destroyed by union army more likely by the Confederates who would cry 'traitor' quicker than their counterparts.
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almostinsane
Well-known member
In general, I would say it's a local issue for local communities to figure out and leave it at that.
Other statues and heritage, I'd draw a line at the national level. There is good reason to see the Confederate monuments and flags as controversial. There isn't a good reason for other monuments to be controversial.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
I don't see a single person here saying 'The Confederacy was right.' I see a number of people saying 'Stop trying to paint it as pure black and white.'
It wasn't pure black and white. It was overwhelmingly black and white, but it's important to keep a distinction between 'the South' and 'the Confederacy,' because there were plenty of southerners who refused to support the Confederacy, and some who outright joined the Union Army or similar. You've noted the existence of such individuals yourself.
Before you jump into your habitual 'this is what makes the right look bad,' ask people directly if they're defending the Confederacy. Because I've yet to see anyone here actually do that.
Also, I'm not trying to argue either that the Confederacy was good, or the North was comprised entirely of angels. I've been on this thread trying to argue that the reason the North outlawed slavery had more to do with morals than with pragmatism.
And who would you get this pro union info from? the local paper sure isn't giving anything but pro confederate pieces and the few people who travel through the small southern town you haven't walked five miles from all your life sure remain quite.
Yes, they knew he was a abolitionist but was it in our modern understanding that he wouldn't touch slavery as he stated or through the eyes of a pro southern opinion piece that either didn't mention his statements or called or implied him to be a probable liar the truth is all in how you present it after all.
Again I am not defending all Southeners as being ignorant the political realities of the situation here so much as I am stating that it's the reason why many of the poor white southerners who did not own slaves would throw in their lot with the Confederacy if they lived in one of the deep southern states with little tolerance for dissent rather than say a random Appalachian country were the opinions were much more varied due to the isolation from slavery and it's issues and people were more likely to join the Union cause.
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So commemorating a slave owner is fine as long as your a Unionist?
I love this doublethink. If you remove slavery from the issue, then there is no moral dimension of evil beyond being traitors, which is what this country was founded upon.
This is why your position is hilarious. You are literally going to compromise on everything. You might say you don't want commemoration to the Founders or Andrew Jackson or Columbus or whoever the hell ever removed from the public sphere, but it's going to happen inevitably with your contortionist stance on things. The Slippery Slope here is real and the protests and declarations made by media and government officials of the side you want to appease have made that mind numbingly obvious. It's not going to stop with 1890's era Robert E. Lee statues and renaming of Confederate bases and you haven't provided a single alternative to compromise on everything.
Just because you have lines you don't wanna cross that are like... two inches past everyone else you disagree with here (that you disparage as Comfort Women apologist equivalents and Neo-Confederates) is meaningless since it's still completely arbitrary in the eyes of the Left.
The North weren't angels, I'm well aware of that. I'm aware that there are some complexities beyond slavery to why the ACW happened.
I'm also aware the Confederate leaders decided to first try to seceed, then steal Federal lands and forts, then go begging England and other nations for help against the US, banking on King Cotton. So yes, the traitor label fits for Confederates and thier cause. The individual rank and file are more innocent, and should not be disintered or have thier graves messed with, but the leaders and commanders deserve no honor.
The only reason I accepted Trump not renaming those bases is because his rational was based the men and woman who have gone through them since they opened.
Also, I wouldn't 'habitually' critique and level critisism at parts of the Right if I didn't care about the Republican Big Tent winning in the long run.
I'm trying to help you all fight smarter and pick your battles better.
Both Washington and Jefferson were slave owners as well, but I'm not calling for them to be torn down, because there is nuance to this, in some situations.So commemorating a slave owner is fine as long as your a Unionist?
I love this doublethink. If you remove slavery from the issue, then there is no moral dimension of evil beyond being traitors, which is what this country was founded upon.
This is why your position is hilarious. You are literally going to compromise on everything. You might say you don't want commemoration to the Founders or Andrew Jackson or Columbus or whoever the hell ever removed from the public sphere, but it's going to happen inevitably with your contortionist stance on things. The Slippery Slope here is real and the protests and declarations made by media and government officials of the side you want to appease have made that mind numbingly obvious. It's not going to stop with 1890's era Robert E. Lee statues and renaming of Confederate bases and you haven't provided a single alternative to compromise on everything.
Just because you have lines you don't wanna cross that are like... two inches past everyone else you disagree with here (that you disparage as Comfort Women apologist equivalents and Neo-Confederates) is meaningless since it's still completely arbitrary in the eyes of the Left.
Also, had Houston been successful in keeping Texas in the Union, the slaves in Texas would probably have been free sooner than OTL.
My limits and red lines on this issue are different from many here, because I'm tired of the damage the stupid Lost Cause mythology and whataboutidms in regards to the Confederacy have done to our nation.
Part of the reason anti-white sentiment exists and can be exploited so well in this country is because of this insistence by some that supporting the display of Confederate symbols in public is some sort of 'heroic stand against the shitlibs or some sort of history worth honoring.
There are a few reasons I do not identify as a conservative, instead a cowboy or Libertarian liberal, and this insistence by parts of the GOP that we must defend the Lost Cause mythology and Confederate monuments in the South, or lose all social battles, is one of them.
Everything I have said is drawn from reading various historical accounts of the events, including material drawn from Southern sources. If you consider this to be mere "anti-South propaganda", you're being a nitwit. Nor am I going to let distortions and myths stand just because resisting them is something you consider politically disadvantageous. Frankly, if your political plank can be undone so easily, you might want to reconsider just what the hell you're arguing for.
As for why Southerners fought, they did it for a host of reasons. Because they believed in the state's rights argument. Because they believed the "Yankees" would force them to racially integrate freed blacks. Because they were forced to by conscription orders (as happened to poor Northerners too, mind you). Because they wanted to protect their hometowns. Ultimately, in some cases, because when the war came and they had to pick who to shoot, they decided they'd rather shoot holier-than-thou Yankee outsiders than their neighbors.
In some cases. In other cases, there were tens, actually hundreds of thousands of Southerners who fought to preserve the Union (most came from the Border South and what became West Virginia, joined by Unionists from the rest of the South).
So commemorating a slave owner is fine as long as your a Unionist?
All slave owners did something wrong, but there's a difference between those who decided to fight and kill to defend the institution and those who chose not to.
One, I'd argue you cannot remove slavery from the issue. It marked the progression of the sectional crisis to the point of disunion, from the Missouri Controversy to the Gag Rules to the Kansas-Nebraska Act. The Lower South seceded to protect the institution from the perceived threat from Lincoln, which got the whole thing rolling.
Two, (added, forgot to put this initially), there's a difference between the events of the 1760s and 1770s and those of the 1850s and 1860s.
I'm not going to hold off on opposing Lost Cause bullshit just because it might help Democrats in some nebulous way.
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D
Deleted member 88
Guest
I’m not sure if Bacle realizes he is being played.So commemorating a slave owner is fine as long as your a Unionist?
I love this doublethink. If you remove slavery from the issue, then there is no moral dimension of evil beyond being traitors, which is what this country was founded upon.
This is why your position is hilarious. You are literally going to compromise on everything. You might say you don't want commemoration to the Founders or Andrew Jackson or Columbus or whoever the hell ever removed from the public sphere, but it's going to happen inevitably with your contortionist stance on things. The Slippery Slope here is real and the protests and declarations made by media and government officials of the side you want to appease have made that mind numbingly obvious. It's not going to stop with 1890's era Robert E. Lee statues and renaming of Confederate bases and you haven't provided a single alternative to compromise on everything.
Just because you have lines you don't wanna cross that are like... two inches past everyone else you disagree with here (that you disparage as Comfort Women apologist equivalents and Neo-Confederates) is meaningless since it's still completely arbitrary in the eyes of the Left.
These are arbitrary and meaningless distinctions. And the left has already argued the American revolution was fought to defend slavery.
He had a bad experience with a neighbor who came out as a white supremacist or something and that shattered his nerve.
Compromise on everything just to meet some bare moral standard the left throws, they say jump and some of us ask how high? Which does not bring people to our side at all.
Okay dude. Look forward to Maoists rewriting American education to say the founders were evil slavers. When they do, your moral cowardice will be partly at fault. Nothing I said was a myth or distortion.
When they blow up Mt. Rushmore, burn Monticello, and trash Mt. Vernon-you will be partly responsible because your utter lack of spine.
I hope your pitiful attempts at getting some validation were worth it.
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Talk about your slippery slopes. "If you don't defend the Lost Cause mythology, the EBIL COMMIES are gonna destroy everything!"
If that's Invictus you're responding to, also remember that he looks to the Sith philosophies for guidance and life lessons.Talk about your slippery slopes. "If you don't defend the Lost Cause mythology, the EBIL COMMIES are gonna destroy everything!"
He's blackpilled all the way to Korriban, so keep that in mind with his frame of reference.
what I don't get is why the south is so obessed with the confederacy. It was less then 5 years of the south's history.
If we count American history as truly existing as an independent country after the end of the American revolutionary war then America as a country began in 1783, others define it in 1776.
If we use the 1783 number then the south had slavery had slavery as an insistution independent of the british for 83 years. If we use the 1776 number then we have the number at 89 years.
As of now the south has been a slave free zone for 155 years.
If your counting the colonial era then slavery began in 1619, which gives a total of 246 years of slavery, of that time period a what third of it or so was independent of the british? If we count generations as a 20 year span of time its been 7 generations with out slavery. No body in america has owned slaves, no one had a parent who legally owned slaves, unless your old as fuck its incredibly unlikely you have a grandparent who owned slaves.
Its been seven generations since slavery seven generations since the end of the civil war its time to let that shit go and move on with our lives.
If we count American history as truly existing as an independent country after the end of the American revolutionary war then America as a country began in 1783, others define it in 1776.
If we use the 1783 number then the south had slavery had slavery as an insistution independent of the british for 83 years. If we use the 1776 number then we have the number at 89 years.
As of now the south has been a slave free zone for 155 years.
If your counting the colonial era then slavery began in 1619, which gives a total of 246 years of slavery, of that time period a what third of it or so was independent of the british? If we count generations as a 20 year span of time its been 7 generations with out slavery. No body in america has owned slaves, no one had a parent who legally owned slaves, unless your old as fuck its incredibly unlikely you have a grandparent who owned slaves.
Its been seven generations since slavery seven generations since the end of the civil war its time to let that shit go and move on with our lives.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
They have already toppled a statue of George Washington and Jefferson, as well as Francis Scott Keyes. More will come in the months and years toTalk about your slippery slopes. "If you don't defend the Lost Cause mythology, the EBIL COMMIES are gonna destroy everything!"
Open your eyes. And see the truth around you. It’s reasonable “conservatives” like you who bring us closer to destruction every day.
If you are too naive or perhaps too foolish to see how easily attacking the confederacy can go to attacking the US itself, then I can not help you.
Then again, proverbs says not to waste one’s time instructing a fool. I guess that makes me one for doing so.
OrigaDiscordia
Member
I liked that flag despite being a northerner because it was a symbol of how hard the South fought. I had a good history teacher who actually showed us all the major battles of the war and how long it took for the North to actually get a pair of decent generals in the form of Grant and Sherman.
Lee was a military genius and I think it's a waste that we are going to erase what is one of our nation's best military minds.
Lee was a military genius and I think it's a waste that we are going to erase what is one of our nation's best military minds.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
The south had an identity apart from the rest of the US, due to its culture, ethnicity and economy. There was an embryonic southern nationalism that the CSA represented. Hence it remains alive in the south so long as the south itself endures.
When the south dies-America will be NYC writ large, a seething mass of mindless consumers that gobble up what the powers that be tell them without identity or virtue.
I’ll be right in ten years. When they destroy all national monuments and make education into anti American propaganda that would make Howard Zinn blush.
Yeah but I'm saying that its been 7 fucking generations since slavery ended, the south is more then slavery and the people who exist there souldn't be tarred with the brush of shit that has been over for over for over 150 years, nor should they define themselves by it.