Conservatism and the Environment

Say, anybody here think that GMO’s will be the solution to many problems? I think we could de-extinct some species or lessen the amount of land used by making GMO food that doesn’t require as many resources for one

Sometimes I think it’s like those who want to “help” the environment believe its best to degrade tech, when really I think upgrading with greater efficiency and different uses is the key
 
Say, anybody here think that GMO’s will be the solution to many problems? I think we could de-extinct some species or lessen the amount of land used by making GMO food that doesn’t require as many resources for one

Sometimes I think it’s like those who want to “help” the environment believe its best to degrade tech, when really I think upgrading with greater efficiency and different uses is the key
Yes, so much this.

GMO's are a godsend for dealing with a lot of environmental issues, as they pertain to food production at least, in a reasonable timeframe. Tech is far easier to improve, and change, than human nature and society is.

As for de-extincting things, take a gander at this: Pleistoncene Park, or one of the few things Russia is doing right.

Also, I'm not sure where I saw it, might have been FB or SB, but there is a GMO bacteria they are looking at introducing to cattle guts to reduce the gas from their farts.
 
@LordsFire
Any chance you think using trash as an alternative fuel source or even a building material is a good idea or better way of using trash and thus freeing up whatever land those landfills use for other things?
Well, back when I was a kid, they sometimes burned the dump to reduce the volume. But that's hardly environmentally sound.

Back in the 70s the firm I worked for designed waste to energy incinerators that were built in Chicago, Detroit, Hamilton Ontario, and I think one other location. Municipal solid waste, AKA garbage, is exothermic, mainly due to the large amounts of included paper products. It burns hot enough to dry out and burn the wet waste, and have energy to sell. The ones I'm familiar with, sold steam for local buildings and plants.

I had worked on an unsuccessful project using anaerobic pyrolysis. The process worked, but we couldn't market it. It used a steel tube with a tight fitting screw conveyor. The tube was heated with gas. The waste entered one end, ash came out the other end, and methane was collected. Some was bled off to heat the pyrolyzer. The rest was scrubbed for sale. It was a very clean process.

The waste to energy business collapsed when the EPA classified municipal incinerator waste as hazardous waste, and refused to considered any measures to inert the stuff.
 
Yes, so much this.

GMO's are a godsend for dealing with a lot of environmental issues, as they pertain to food production at least, in a reasonable timeframe. Tech is far easier to improve, and change, than human nature and society is.

Also, I'm not sure where I saw it, might have been FB or SB, but there is a GMO bacteria they are looking at introducing to cattle guts to reduce the gas from their farts.

But no, the environmentalists say, we must ban what are merely the more efficient application of techniques that have been used since the dawn of agriculture.

Sometimes I think it’s like those who want to “help” the environment believe its best to degrade tech, when really I think upgrading with greater efficiency and different uses is the key

They're not really in favour of conserving the environment. What they're in favour of is demolishing industrial civilisation.
 
But no, the environmentalists say, we must ban what are merely the more efficient application of techniques that have been used since the dawn of agriculture.

They're not really in favour of conserving the environment. What they're in favour of is demolishing industrial civilisation.

You know, I think there’s a difference between a Romanticist and an Idealist, the latter may actually admit that there will be problems and that the solution whatever that is, is not so simple.

The Romanticist will go on about how it’s all so simple and see things in a near-unforgiving Black&White sort of perspective.

Also, bet these Environmentalists are a bunch of rich kids ungrateful to their parents and the society that allows them to live such nice and cushy lives
 
You know, I think there’s a difference between a Romanticist and an Idealist, the latter may actually admit that there will be problems and that the solution whatever that is, is not so simple.

The Romanticist will go on about how it’s all so simple and see things in a near-unforgiving Black&White sort of perspective.

Also, bet these Environmentalists are a bunch of rich kids ungrateful to their parents and the society that allows them to live such nice and cushy lives
The balance almost certainly is. The modern "Green" movement is nothing more than a reskinned socialist party. Now there are legit environmentalists but the parties are not them.
 
Crossposting this from another thread, I was getting derailed from the subject over there.


Too bad global warming is a hoax designed to get us so fearful that we give our money to rent-seeking, hypocritical elites.
I neither accept nor reject the hypothesis of manmade global warming, though it does seem to me that both the Democrats and moderate Republicans who claim to believe in impending catastrophic global warming govern in a way which is contrary to this belief. I don't think that even if global warming and is that it will have catastrophic effects on Western civilization directly. The West is too rich and is already in the cooler parts of the world. We wont have Water World or Venus. Parts of the Third World, Africa especially, may suffer. I have noticed that recently the phrase "global warming" has been replaced with "climate change" which is weaselly beyond belief - it basically allows any weather phenomenon it be used as evidence.

The more likely calamity that I think is fast approaching is a demographic one, as First World nations are being flooded by hostile immigrants who are not assimilating and are largely incompatible with Western Civilization. Once they reach a critical mass, the Western host nations will essentially cease to be. Is that a catastrophe that can set things right? Is it a catastrophe that can even be recovered from? I don't know the answer to either of those questions.
I would put it like this.

Climate scientists are definitely lying their asses off (Ref. Mann, and all the other incidents I've read about). And even when they're not doing that, they're chucking out modeling papers; generally speaking, modeling papers are some of the most unreliable scientific papers we get. They're also chasing grants. You don't get grants for showing nothing significant is going on. Specifically in their area, you don't get grants for contradicting the anthropogenic global warming paradigm. There's a lot of under-reported motivated reasoning in Science today, and they've got more than their fair share.

But.

Just because they're lying and jazzing things up, and downplaying past climate change. Just because they're backed by transparent political agendas (which I honestly believe was originally just "Fuck OPEC"). Just because we know the historic CO2 levels lagged rather than lead climate change. Just because none of their previous models have been accurate. Just because they changed "Global Warming" to Climate Change", so almost no matter what happens they can claim to be right. Just because they were also lying about the Ozone hole and CFCs.

Just because these things are happening, doesn't mean they're wrong. I think there's a very good chance institutionally corrupt, problem-plagued climate science could be onto something that we need to take into account.
 
Crossposting this from another thread, I was getting derailed from the subject over there.




I would put it like this.

Climate scientists are definitely lying their asses off (Ref. Mann, and all the other incidents I've read about). And even when they're not doing that, they're chucking out modeling papers; generally speaking, modeling papers are some of the most unreliable scientific papers we get. They're also chasing grants. You don't get grants for showing nothing significant is going on. Specifically in their area, you don't get grants for contradicting the anthropogenic global warming paradigm. There's a lot of under-reported motivated reasoning in Science today, and they've got more than their fair share.

But.

Just because they're lying and jazzing things up, and downplaying past climate change. Just because they're backed by transparent political agendas (which I honestly believe was originally just "Fuck OPEC"). Just because we know the historic CO2 levels lagged rather than lead climate change. Just because none of their previous models have been accurate. Just because they changed "Global Warming" to Climate Change", so almost no matter what happens they can claim to be right. Just because they were also lying about the Ozone hole and CFCs.

Just because these things are happening, doesn't mean they're wrong. I think there's a very good chance institutionally corrupt, problem-plagued climate science could be onto something that we need to take into account.
You are very correct.

As much as a lot of the environmental Left are self-serving, virtue signally, grant chasing, iffy model flinging hypocrites, the fact is when you dig down into the hard, unvarnished, unmassaged data, there is real reason to worry.

It's boils down to this; the problems are, on the whole, very real, but the people who are actively proposing ways to address those problems are absolute shit at PR and picking worthwhile allies.

I garuantee you that if the environmental movement had used almost any but Al Gore as their mouth piece back in the day, we'd not have the poltical problems surrounding the issue today. As well, if the environmental movement tried to actively distance itself from the SJWs and the anti-2nd Amendment folks, it'd be a lot easier to get meaningful shit done.

However, I will also say it'd be a lot easier to get stuff done if people on the Right did actually remembered it was Republicans who used to lead the way on environmental issues, and weren't allergic to taxes of pretty much any type.
 
If the Greens of the 70s hadn't blown up Three Mile Island so much as they had, carbon emissions would be a lot lower.

Did you know that coal plants are far more polluting than nuclear, not only in the typical ways, but in emission of radioactive materials?
Agreed. The Leftists aren’t really that serious in taking on Climate Change except when it the “solution” lets them gain more power and money. So I’m not going to take climate change seriously either.
 
Agreed. The Leftists aren’t really that serious in taking on Climate Change except when it the “solution” lets them gain more power and money. So I’m not going to take climate change seriously either.

Even if Crassus is demanding you sell him your house before his fire-brigade of slaves puts it out, that doesn't mean your house being on fire is something you can just ignore.
 
OK, breaking my normal policy of only posting in mod voice in this sub forum since this is a topic near and dear to me.

Climate changes, all the time... but the current changes are neither unprecedented nor catastrophic.

For example, we are constantly told about how Greenland is melting at an 'unprecedented' rate. As evidence they show you pictures of a Greenland glacier covered with a meltwater lake that supposedly proves warming, with a team of sled dogs pulling a sled through the mess. This is presented as 'indisputable proof' of Anthropogenic Climate Change and a pending Climate Catastrophe.

Minor problem. There are pictures of that exact same scene on that exact same glacier from decades ago... and the local natives even have a word for the situation that roughly translates to 'all is water'. This happens *every single year* and is actually because the glacier is so cold that it *isn't* melting, rather rainfall is collecting on top and is not able to run off, and with the air temperature being above freezing it takes time for it to freeze from beneath.

Another one from Greenland. Back in 2011 there was a 'new' Island revealed from a retreating glacier, that was promptly dubbed Uunartoq Qeqertaq (Warming Island in Inuit). This was 'officially recognized' by the IPCC, the UN, multiple science agencies, proclaimed on the news as 'proof' of CAGW...

Yet that very same island is visible on nautical charts from the 1950's. Oops.

Mt Kilimanjaro was supposed to have lost its ice cap because of AGW... yet if you look at Kilimanjaro today you'll see a perfectly healthy ice cap. It did briefly lose the cap, but that was actually due to massive deforestation interfering with the rain cycle in the region, without the forests there was no rain/snow fall leading to the disappearance of the cap. Once the forests were re-planted and recovered the ice cap immediately returned. Funny that.

Underneath Alpine glaciers that are retreating in Europe they are finding evidence of medieval roads, mines, and villages, all of which were covered by said glaciers in the Little Ice Age (which we're still coming out of.. more on that later)

Remember all the panic about ice sheets in Western Antarctica melting? Wonder why that story quietly disappeared? Because they found out why there was so much ice movement in the region and it had nothing to do with Evil Carbon Dioxide From Evil Humans... turns out there were a number of erupting volcanoes underneath the ice. OOPS.

You are told over and over that rising sea levels are caused by global warming and this is proof of AGW... however in North America they completely handwave away isostatic rebound (when multi-trillion ton ice sheets on the northern half of the continental plate disappear, you'd think that there would be some effect on the plate itself, and it turns out that there is. Because of the incredible mass of those ice sheets the North American plate was tilted, with the weight removed the plate is returning to level... which means that the southern half of the plate is sinking down.) Sea levels are actually amazingly constant when you properly correct for isostatic rebound.

You are told that the selfsame 'rising sea levels' are going to drown all these beautiful tropical islands that are massive tourist destinations... yet they never mention that atolls and islands almost identically situated a few hundred miles away from said tourist destinations are *not* experiencing any sea level rise at all. Turns out that when you drain the fresh water lens beneath a tropical island and kill off the various reef fish that are critical to maintaining the coral sands (yet which make the water murky and not so 'perfectly sparkly blue' like the tourists want to see) you see the islands, which are little more than piles of sand, start subsiding and washing away. Who knew?

The Great Barrier Reef is supposedly dying, yet it turns out that multiple scientists are now finding that to the contrary the reef is healthy, the bleaching episodes are cyclical and natural, and that those sounding the alarm are being incredibly tricky with how much they cherry pick data.

That incident where walruses were supposedly killed because of climate change shifting bear habitats? Turns out they were panicked over the ledge by the photographers who took the images using very low altitude drone flybys to startle the beasties. Shades of the Lemming myth there, eh?

The truth is that we have only the tiniest sliver of high quality data with which to make any evaluations. We simply do not know much of anything. The only truly high quality climate data collection system in the United States only went online in 2005, and is showing a slight cooling trend in the temperature anomalies.

USRCN-2005-2019.png

For your information, there are two climate measurement networks in the United States. The United States COOP network, which formerly was known as the Historical Climate Network (USHCN) which has spotty data back to the 19th century yet suffers from serious issues with tracking station locations, equipment, methodology etc. As a result the data from COOP is actually preferred by climate scientists, ostensibly because of the age of it, but in actuality because they can use the myriad issues with the dataset to justify massive massaging of the data via adjustments. By the raw data, the 1930's were significantly warmer than today (funny, ever hear of some little issue called the Dust Bowl? Yeah... no longer taught in schools, wonder why?) but via massive adjustments to the data they can get the results they want (UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL WARMING HOTTEST YEAR EVER!). In fact, the entire claimed climate trend exists almost completely in the adjustments. If you eliminated the COOP raw data completely and simply plotted the trend of the adjustments, you get a shocking correlation to the claimed 'warming'.

This situation is made worse by just how horrific the siting is of many of these stations. You'd have stations where the thermometer housing was sitting next to a massive barbecue pit, or right next to the exhaust fans of a dozen air conditioner units chilling a server room, or on blacktop next to where delivery trucks idle their engines while making deliveries. Or in the other direction, in a palm grove directly next to irrigation nozzles that spray relatively cool water right onto the housing. Ya think that there are going to be problems with this data?

The alternative is the United States Climate Reference Network. In the early 2000's, due to revelations about just how bad the USHCN was, Congress funded the USCRN. In this network, every station is carefully sited on dedicated land selected for being representative of 'climate regions', each state has multiple such stations in each 'climate region', all stations continuously log data, all stations are equipped identically, laid out identically, protected from encroachment via significant easements and fencing, and kept fully maintained with complete logging of any work done. Yet you will *never* see USCRN data used by any climate scientists who supports the supposed consensus about Climate Change. Never.

It's too new, they will claim (it's now almost 15 years old, and we only have full US coverage in the USHCN for 20 more years than that). Yeah... right. They just know that they cannot even vaguely justify adjusting this data (Time of Observation bias... ummm, continuous monitoring, time of observation is 'every minute of the day'. ToO is the climate teams goto adjustment to jiggle with data.)

Because of just how little data we have directly, especially in comparison to the age of the Earth, the normal solution is to find climate proxies that you can use to estimate past climate. This, however, is an art, not a science, and is fraught with serious issues. For example, none of the proxies around actually show any correlation to climate conditions for which we have corresponding hard data. The entire gist of 'Climategate' can be summed up with 'Hide the Decline'. The proxies completely failed to match up to current conditions, so they misleadingly pasted in the current data and waved their hands frantically hoping nobody would ever notice.

Don't get me started on the problems with the proxies themselves (Did you know that the entire historical climate chart that you see over and over again is based on ONE SINGLE tree from Siberia? Yeah, didn't think so.) From cherry picking which trees to use, to a sorting algorithm that will only surface 'hockey sticks', to use of a data set that they people who created it said was corrupted (oops, they hadn't realized that the 'pristine' sediment core had been massively screwed up by multiple bomb detonations since the pond they used turned out to have been used for weapons testing in WW2...) and even then they had to turn the data upside down to create the hockey stick.

For those trying to use the precautionary principle to argue for action anyways, despite the demonstrated bad faith of the proponents of the theory. Why are you so concerned, when the only cause for concern is what is being trumpeted by the very people who you admit have constantly acted in bad faith and dishonesty? Why do you believe anything you hear from them?
 
I will only speak for myself here, but I do want say I like the detail you went into here and understand your sceptism.

Personally, I find the data convincing because I've had access beyond paywalls most don't get to see behind. What I've seen is not encouraging, though not as imminently disastrous as many alarmists claim

I got my BA in General Geology, so I understand isostatic rebound, plate shifts, glacial formation/melting, the impact of volcanism on the climate, Milancovich(?) orbital cycles and how to dig through raw data.

But I have also been fortunate enough to grow up in, and travel to, places where I can see visual indicators of warming and shifting environmental conditions. A big one, that I see regularly, are forests full of trees killed by pine beetle outbreaks. It takes extended below 0 F temps to inhibit those outbreaks, and that is happening less and less in the Rockies. I've also traveled to Alaska enough times to have been able to compare glacial extent just with family photos, and those glaciers are not doing too well.

I do not believe that humans are solely to blame, and understand that the climate would shift without any human interference. I also understand that there are questions of data veracity and validity, as well as blatant political social agendas in some parts of the environmental movement.

But I think you also need to understand that it isn't all grant chasing and political agendas driving this. There are a lot of people who are earnestly and sincerely concerned about the climate and the planet's long term habitability for humans. There are people who come to the environmental movement because they see, with their own eyes, dramatic climate shifts and environmental issues that they wish to address.

Is some data crap or cherry picked? Yes. Is there blatant political and social agendas on the part of some environmentalists? Hell Yes. Are some parts of the movement, particularly the wealthier parts, bloody hypocrites who jet around on G4s to conferences and summits? Abso-fucking-lutely. Does this mean things are fine and most environmental issues are blown out of proportion? NO, NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

Sceptism is healthy, and I do not hold your views on this against you. However, please do not characterize a large body of data and analysis as being only presented by bad faith actors and dupes.
 
OK, I'll bite, @Bacle , at least a little. Specifically focusing on the pine beetle problem.

Yes, it is a significant problem, and yes pine beetles are inhibited by cold snaps below freezing. But that is not the cause of the problem.

The most likely cause is idiotic forestry management solutions that focus purely on the prevention of forest fires without realizing just how vital said fires are to healthy ecosystems within forests, especially pine forests. In the past, there were actually two ways pine beetle outbreaks were controlled. Either by cold snaps killing the beetles in infected trees, or by forest fires destroying the badly weakened and dried out infested trees and killing off the beetles. Now a full 50% of the natural break on beetle population and outbreaks have been removed thanks to aggressive forest fire prevention to protect potentially economically valuable timber stands.

With that in mind, what do you expect will happen with pine beetles? That the population of them is exploding and causing massive damage is pretty much guaranteed because we are keeping the natural cycle from eliminating them... and it has absolutely nothing to do with climate whatsoever. Indeed, for climate to 'fix' the issue we'd need to enter a glaciation phase of the current ice age (note, we are in an interglacial *period*, overall we are still in an ice age).

And I lied, I'll also discuss glacier 'retreat', glaciers are not well understood (despite what the activist-scientists claim) and predicting their behavior is also an art rather than a science. Simply pointing at one glacier or glacial system and saying 'see see see it's retreating' doesn't prove anything, beyond that that one glacier is retreating. We have so little actual data on the issue that it is impossible to actually know if there is a trend at all with ice extent, since our available data only dates from 1975 for relatively complete global coverage. Anything from before then is models or proxies, and we have no way of knowing if the proxies are even accurate to what we think they are proxies for.

As an example I will bring up a simple scenario. Graph x squared. Now, select a point where x=-1 and a point where x=1 and draw a line between them. What is the slope of that line? Now select a point where x=-1 and x=0 and do the same thing with the line and determine the slope. Then do the same with x=0 and x=1 as the end points. All three will produce totally different trend lines. Now which one is the actual trend? In data analysis you always have to be aware of the potential for biased results based on your start and end point.

I will remind you that the plural of anecdote is not data, and the data (when not modelled into oblivion by activists with an agenda unrelated to actual climate and purely motivated by power and wealth) doesn't support the premise.

And incidentally, before you bring up the 97% of scientists agree canard, please note that I am very conversant in the grotesque problems with Lewandowski's 'research'.
 
Climate changes, all the time...
True. However we've had what appears to be an unusually stable last 4,000 years. (Things got pretty crazy in 2,200 BC. The Sahara finishing drying out for one.)

but the current changes are neither unprecedented nor catastrophic.
That's one of the main points of the dispute, so I won't take that as a given, but rather as your thesis.

For example, we are constantly told about how Greenland is melting at an 'unprecedented' rate. As evidence they show you pictures of a Greenland glacier covered with a meltwater lake that supposedly proves warming, with a team of sled dogs pulling a sled through the mess. This is presented as 'indisputable proof' of Anthropogenic Climate Change and a pending Climate Catastrophe.

Minor problem. There are pictures of that exact same scene on that exact same glacier from decades ago... and the local natives even have a word for the situation that roughly translates to 'all is water'. This happens *every single year* and is actually because the glacier is so cold that it *isn't* melting, rather rainfall is collecting on top and is not able to run off, and with the air temperature being above freezing it takes time for it to freeze from beneath.

Another one from Greenland. Back in 2011 there was a 'new' Island revealed from a retreating glacier, that was promptly dubbed Uunartoq Qeqertaq (Warming Island in Inuit). This was 'officially recognized' by the IPCC, the UN, multiple science agencies, proclaimed on the news as 'proof' of CAGW...

Yet that very same island is visible on nautical charts from the 1950's. Oops.

Mt Kilimanjaro was supposed to have lost its ice cap because of AGW... yet if you look at Kilimanjaro today you'll see a perfectly healthy ice cap. It did briefly lose the cap, but that was actually due to massive deforestation interfering with the rain cycle in the region, without the forests there was no rain/snow fall leading to the disappearance of the cap. Once the forests were re-planted and recovered the ice cap immediately returned. Funny that.

Underneath Alpine glaciers that are retreating in Europe they are finding evidence of medieval roads, mines, and villages, all of which were covered by said glaciers in the Little Ice Age (which we're still coming out of.. more on that later)

Remember all the panic about ice sheets in Western Antarctica melting? Wonder why that story quietly disappeared? Because they found out why there was so much ice movement in the region and it had nothing to do with Evil Carbon Dioxide From Evil Humans... turns out there were a number of erupting volcanoes underneath the ice. OOPS.

You are told over and over that rising sea levels are caused by global warming and this is proof of AGW... however in North America they completely handwave away isostatic rebound (when multi-trillion ton ice sheets on the northern half of the continental plate disappear, you'd think that there would be some effect on the plate itself, and it turns out that there is. Because of the incredible mass of those ice sheets the North American plate was tilted, with the weight removed the plate is returning to level... which means that the southern half of the plate is sinking down.) Sea levels are actually amazingly constant when you properly correct for isostatic rebound.

You are told that the selfsame 'rising sea levels' are going to drown all these beautiful tropical islands that are massive tourist destinations... yet they never mention that atolls and islands almost identically situated a few hundred miles away from said tourist destinations are *not* experiencing any sea level rise at all. Turns out that when you drain the fresh water lens beneath a tropical island and kill off the various reef fish that are critical to maintaining the coral sands (yet which make the water murky and not so 'perfectly sparkly blue' like the tourists want to see) you see the islands, which are little more than piles of sand, start subsiding and washing away. Who knew?

The Great Barrier Reef is supposedly dying, yet it turns out that multiple scientists are now finding that to the contrary the reef is healthy, the bleaching episodes are cyclical and natural, and that those sounding the alarm are being incredibly tricky with how much they cherry pick data.

That incident where walruses were supposedly killed because of climate change shifting bear habitats? Turns out they were panicked over the ledge by the photographers who took the images using very low altitude drone flybys to startle the beasties. Shades of the Lemming myth there, eh?
Most of the above problems are science reporting and non-climatologists. Which is if anything more atrocious because certain parts of the media, which see themselves as temporarily embarrassed philosopher-kings and their faithful servants, believe in disastrous anthropogenic warming with the force of religion.

The truth is that we have only the tiniest sliver of high quality data with which to make any evaluations. We simply do not know much of anything. The only truly high quality climate data collection system in the United States only went online in 2005, and is showing a slight cooling trend in the temperature anomalies.

View attachment 89

For your information, there are two climate measurement networks in the United States. The United States COOP network, which formerly was known as the Historical Climate Network (USHCN) which has spotty data back to the 19th century yet suffers from serious issues with tracking station locations, equipment, methodology etc. As a result the data from COOP is actually preferred by climate scientists, ostensibly because of the age of it, but in actuality because they can use the myriad issues with the dataset to justify massive massaging of the data via adjustments. By the raw data, the 1930's were significantly warmer than today (funny, ever hear of some little issue called the Dust Bowl? Yeah... no longer taught in schools, wonder why?) but via massive adjustments to the data they can get the results they want (UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL WARMING HOTTEST YEAR EVER!). In fact, the entire claimed climate trend exists almost completely in the adjustments. If you eliminated the COOP raw data completely and simply plotted the trend of the adjustments, you get a shocking correlation to the claimed 'warming'.

This situation is made worse by just how horrific the siting is of many of these stations. You'd have stations where the thermometer housing was sitting next to a massive barbecue pit, or right next to the exhaust fans of a dozen air conditioner units chilling a server room, or on blacktop next to where delivery trucks idle their engines while making deliveries. Or in the other direction, in a palm grove directly next to irrigation nozzles that spray relatively cool water right onto the housing. Ya think that there are going to be problems with this data?
Was aware. They do say they're fixing positioning. Urban heat-island effect I know is both large and taken seriously in the literature... but falls out of mention by the time reporting makes it to the public.

The alternative is the United States Climate Reference Network. In the early 2000's, due to revelations about just how bad the USHCN was, Congress funded the USCRN. In this network, every station is carefully sited on dedicated land selected for being representative of 'climate regions', each state has multiple such stations in each 'climate region', all stations continuously log data, all stations are equipped identically, laid out identically, protected from encroachment via significant easements and fencing, and kept fully maintained with complete logging of any work done. Yet you will *never* see USCRN data used by any climate scientists who supports the supposed consensus about Climate Change. Never.

It's too new, they will claim (it's now almost 15 years old, and we only have full US coverage in the USHCN for 20 more years than that). Yeah... right. They just know that they cannot even vaguely justify adjusting this data (Time of Observation bias... ummm, continuous monitoring, time of observation is 'every minute of the day'. ToO is the climate teams goto adjustment to jiggle with data.)
This is both meaty and new for me.

Because of just how little data we have directly, especially in comparison to the age of the Earth, the normal solution is to find climate proxies that you can use to estimate past climate. This, however, is an art, not a science, and is fraught with serious issues. For example, none of the proxies around actually show any correlation to climate conditions for which we have corresponding hard data. The entire gist of 'Climategate' can be summed up with 'Hide the Decline'. The proxies completely failed to match up to current conditions, so they misleadingly pasted in the current data and waved their hands frantically hoping nobody would ever notice.
IIRC "Hide the decline" was specifically about removing the medieval warm period.


Don't get me started on the problems with the proxies themselves (Did you know that the entire historical climate chart that you see over and over again is based on ONE SINGLE tree from Siberia? Yeah, didn't think so.) From cherry picking which trees to use, to a sorting algorithm that will only surface 'hockey sticks', to use of a data set that they people who created it said was corrupted (oops, they hadn't realized that the 'pristine' sediment core had been massively screwed up by multiple bomb detonations since the pond they used turned out to have been used for weapons testing in WW2...) and even then they had to turn the data upside down to create the hockey stick.
Yes, well aware of specific papers being deficient.

For those trying to use the precautionary principle to argue for action anyways, despite the demonstrated bad faith of the proponents of the theory. Why are you so concerned, when the only cause for concern is what is being trumpeted by the very people who you admit have constantly acted in bad faith and dishonesty? Why do you believe anything you hear from them?
1. Some of the problems you're mentioning with climate science are not unique to climate science. Having been in a lab, I witnessed a significant portion of researchers treating science like a clever game instead of a duty. This was particularly when there was pressure to perform, or the primary problems were things no-one had solved for decades, or when there were endemic replicability issues or no-one likely to attempt replication. The fuzzier a field gets, the less others use reality to check your work, the more people attempt and succeed at fraud and lesser sins like wishful data interpretation. For example like in this comic, except the scientists pulling it in their papers and grant proposals instead of the science reporters. Under the gun, grad students had to be able to make up lies and wholeheartedly believe them.

I totally expect climate science to be full of similar shennanagins and worse, because of how heavy it relies on modeling papers. But on the same hand much of the delusion will be self-delusion, and there should be numbers of honest brokers smart enough to make a good go with the data they've got. That -should- be producing delicious skewering intra-field when people get too far out of line.

2. Other situations where the popular wisdom is controversial are different. For example, what is reported on work in population genetics and work in intelligence research in different populations is almost the diametric opposite of the actual consensus in the fields. The double talk there is to avoid crushing political realities. David Reich editorializes one thing but his papers say different. Because he's a smart man who enjoys not being called a nazi jew (he is Jewish) lizard by the press, so he can keep running the best ancient genetics lab on the planet.

In climate science there's also overwhelming political pressure. But the actual consensus in-field is aligned with the zeitgeist. Now, admittedly, there are totally corrupted fields of study like anthropology, sociology and social psychology, but those are harder to check against reality than Climate Science.

I am not completely stupid, but neither am I a climate scientist. Unless I want to make it my profession, I must rely on others to do the job for me, whether that's the scientists or skeptics. To provide relevant summaries of the results (because lies of ommission are just as important as ones of commission) and tell it truthfully.

So no, I don't believe in our climate science. It's being produced by scientists, and I know what those bastards can be like. But neither can I dismiss it as easily as I could mere bad reporting or a fuzzy field overrun by the barbarians. There's too much riding on this for there to be an organized conspiracy, those always leak.

Speaking of leaks, back in the day I read a considerable number of the climategate emails. I've experienced those conversations about data before. There was malice there, but much more self-delusion and gamesmanship. They needed the data to say something, so they were torturing it until it talked. But I have trouble imagining the collective self-delusion is that bad everywhere. Remember, Mann was one of the worst of them.

I really appreciate the work (and it is work) that is being done here in this debate by both parties.
 
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OK, I'll bite, @Bacle , at least a little. Specifically focusing on the pine beetle problem.

Yes, it is a significant problem, and yes pine beetles are inhibited by cold snaps below freezing. But that is not the cause of the problem.

The most likely cause is idiotic forestry management solutions that focus purely on the prevention of forest fires without realizing just how vital said fires are to healthy ecosystems within forests, especially pine forests. In the past, there were actually two ways pine beetle outbreaks were controlled. Either by cold snaps killing the beetles in infected trees, or by forest fires destroying the badly weakened and dried out infested trees and killing off the beetles. Now a full 50% of the natural break on beetle population and outbreaks have been removed thanks to aggressive forest fire prevention to protect potentially economically valuable timber stands.

With that in mind, what do you expect will happen with pine beetles? That the population of them is exploding and causing massive damage is pretty much guaranteed because we are keeping the natural cycle from eliminating them... and it has absolutely nothing to do with climate whatsoever. Indeed, for climate to 'fix' the issue we'd need to enter a glaciation phase of the current ice age (note, we are in an interglacial *period*, overall we are still in an ice age).

And I lied, I'll also discuss glacier 'retreat', glaciers are not well understood (despite what the activist-scientists claim) and predicting their behavior is also an art rather than a science. Simply pointing at one glacier or glacial system and saying 'see see see it's retreating' doesn't prove anything, beyond that that one glacier is retreating. We have so little actual data on the issue that it is impossible to actually know if there is a trend at all with ice extent, since our available data only dates from 1975 for relatively complete global coverage. Anything from before then is models or proxies, and we have no way of knowing if the proxies are even accurate to what we think they are proxies for.

As an example I will bring up a simple scenario. Graph x squared. Now, select a point where x=-1 and a point where x=1 and draw a line between them. What is the slope of that line? Now select a point where x=-1 and x=0 and do the same thing with the line and determine the slope. Then do the same with x=0 and x=1 as the end points. All three will produce totally different trend lines. Now which one is the actual trend? In data analysis you always have to be aware of the potential for biased results based on your start and end point.

I will remind you that the plural of anecdote is not data, and the data (when not modelled into oblivion by activists with an agenda unrelated to actual climate and purely motivated by power and wealth) doesn't support the premise.

And incidentally, before you bring up the 97% of scientists agree canard, please note that I am very conversant in the grotesque problems with Lewandowski's 'research'.
I am about to go into work, and will answer more fully later, but first I want to ask a question.

What sort of background do you have? I am not going to try an appeal to authority here, but I can better address your questions and criticisms if I understand what sort of experience is informing your views.
 
I am about to go into work, and will answer more fully later, but first I want to ask a question.

What sort of background do you have? I am not going to try an appeal to authority here, but I can better address your questions and criticisms if I understand what sort of experience is informing your views.

A combination of being involved in actual conservation work since the early '90s, regularly taking a truly epic number of classes on subjects of interest over the years (if I had ever bothered to actually take required classes outside of my interests I'd have several bachelor's degrees by now, but I study what I am interested in, not what the school tells me I need to know.) I've attended seminars given by both proponents of the AGW theory and prominent skeptical voices, as well as examined the source material for both. I was a participant in the Surface Stations Project in the early days, helping to suss out just how poor the data record actually was at a time when the powers that be in climate science insisted it was pure as driven snow and were busy trying to destroy the raw data to prevent getting caught.

At the moment due to a combination of bureaucratic ineptitude and the passing of my mother from cancer I am not enrolled in a University, so currently I lack direct access to the various research databases, but once the snafus are worked out I'll be returning to my meandering pattern of studying what I'm interested in (I've taken classes in *deep breath* anthropology, world history, military history, creative writing, literature, statistics, computer science, astronomy, astrophysics, physics, political science, dabbled a little in some sociology classes but decided it was far too fuzzy and dropped them, geology, geography, oceanography, dabbled a bit in engineering but discovered I have no skill at it but have studied extensively the history of engineering, Southwest archaeology, Egyptology... you get the picture, I'm an old fashioned Renaissance man, not a modern narrow specialist.)

@Sol Zagato

I'll do a post later on going over your quite well presented arguments and discussing them in the depth that they deserve (right now I'm simply typing while insomniac LOL) But 'Hide the Decline' was actually in reference to 'Mike's Nature Trick', IE Michael Mann's rather clever graphing trick where he added the modern temperature record at a point in time where it intersected the proxy data, stopped the proxy graph line, and used a color for the modern data that was visually indistinct from the proxy to create the illusion that it was a single uninterrupted data line. Therefore giving the proxy data the illusion of perfectly matching the instrument record and 'proving' that his proxies were correct. The fact that he created the Hockey Stick graph specifically to kill the MWP is true, but Hide the Decline is more specific to the graphing shenanigans.
 
A combination of being involved in actual conservation work since the early '90s, regularly taking a truly epic number of classes on subjects of interest over the years (if I had ever bothered to actually take required classes outside of my interests I'd have several bachelor's degrees by now, but I study what I am interested in, not what the school tells me I need to know.) I've attended seminars given by both proponents of the AGW theory and prominent skeptical voices, as well as examined the source material for both. I was a participant in the Surface Stations Project in the early days, helping to suss out just how poor the data record actually was at a time when the powers that be in climate science insisted it was pure as driven snow and were busy trying to destroy the raw data to prevent getting caught.

At the moment due to a combination of bureaucratic ineptitude and the passing of my mother from cancer I am not enrolled in a University, so currently I lack direct access to the various research databases, but once the snafus are worked out I'll be returning to my meandering pattern of studying what I'm interested in (I've taken classes in *deep breath* anthropology, world history, military history, creative writing, literature, statistics, computer science, astronomy, astrophysics, physics, political science, dabbled a little in some sociology classes but decided it was far too fuzzy and dropped them, geology, geography, oceanography, dabbled a bit in engineering but discovered I have no skill at it but have studied extensively the history of engineering, Southwest archaeology, Egyptology... you get the picture, I'm an old fashioned Renaissance man, not a modern narrow specialist.)
Ok, good to know you are a well read individual and have a wide scope of experiences. It also shows you understand the issues with academic/research paywalls and how they are a hindrance to wider understanding of issues.

For the pine beetles, I am know part of the issue is overgrown forests. Believe me, I feel too much human development in the backcountry, and thus hindering natural fire cycles, is a big part of it. However, the simple fact is winters around here, over the average, have not been cold enough, long enough to truly hinder them, regardless of backcountry development. It takes multiple weeks of below freezing temps to kill the larva (IIRC) and even with good forest management, if it's not getting cold enough to kill most of the larva, the bugs will spread. They can jump/fly something like 50 meters without wind assist, and that means they can cross a lot of terrain relatively quickly. I think the best solution is large scale logging operations to make up for lack of fires, and luckily beetle kill wood is structurally sound and the blue stain in it actually adds some value for aesthetics. Also, and this was something I found surprising, but pine beetles can make a good protein source if harvested, ground, and baked into things; found this out in my old grad program.

Now, in regards to the glaciers, it is not just one glacier or just a few. Majority of glaciers in Alaska are retreating, and the glaciers in Glacier National Park are almost gone. They even had to import snow to Anchorage for the Ididurod Sleddog Race a few years back, because they had gotten so little snow, and the last few years haven't been a whole lot better. Yes, some of the stuff in Greenland has been overblown, and the recent issues in Antarctica is more volcanic than atmospheric in origin. But I can remember being in both Alaska and Glacier National Park when they both had substantial glaciers and seen the retreats with my own eyes. I've also seen how fast the snow packs in the Rockies disappear, and because my family is/was connected to the ski industry, I understand how vital those snow packs are for both water and recreation.

Though, and please don't take this the wrong way, the 'the plural of anecdotes is not data' is a phrase that is used by a lot of people on both sides to dismiss stories and experiences that don't line up with the narrative or agenda someone wants to push. It is best if, instead of using that phrase, you actually accept that anecdotes are just as valid as hard data as individual cases, and work to address those stories/experiences, instead of trying to gloss over them or downplay them. Yes, policy cannot be made purely out of anecdotes, but neither should individual experiences and stories be ignored because they don't fit the data.

Now, seeing as you do seem to have substantial experience debating this and working in the field, I want to ask if you have ever considered taking a teaching position related to this at a more conservatively minded college or university? Because the way you broke that all down and addressed the issue was superb, and speaks highly of your ability to impart this information to a wide audience.
 

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