Election 2020 Discussion Of Voter ID Laws. ( What A Boring Thread Title For A Hot Button Topic.)

[The One Char]

We had a nice run with democracy.

 

[Cherico]

We had a nice run with democracy.

The pain will increase until the pain of innaction is worse then the pain of action.

 

[Rocinante]

We had a nice run with democracy.

As we are shouting about how our elections system needs fixed and secured...the other side is actively making it harder to do so.

They're all frauds and cheats. I hope one day we can win our country back..but when they're making it easier and easier to cheat...I don't see it happening.

Seriously. How could you possibly pass national mail in voting AND pass a law restricting states from issuing ID laws?

ID should be required for every single vote. No ID? No voting. PERIOD.

I need an ID to buy alcohol and many other products. I need one to drive my car. I need one to do almost any government process. I need an ID to function in society.

But somehow it's okay TO VOTE without one?

Ridiculous.

 

[Greengrass]

The footage of not just poll watchers being kicked out, but the windows at counting stations getting blocked so people couldn't even look in from outside?

Let's look at this claims specifically, because it's absolute garbage nonsense. The number of poll watchers per party was supposed to be 134, but both Republicans and Democrats brought more than that and had more than 200 each. Those poll watchers were inside when the the windows were blocked because additional Republicans were pressing themselves up against the windows, banging on them and chanting loudly as well as trying to film inside from the outside, which is not allowed. There was never a time when there were not a bunch of Republican poll watchers in the room.

If you want people to take your claims seriously, stop pushing lies just because they fit your beliefs.

As for the affadavits, aside from the ones that are just flat out lies or very bad math based on made up numbers, many of them are just from people who don't know how the process works and assume that anything they see must be fraud. This is from a case in Michigan (despite claims that nobody ever looked at any of the affadavits)

 

[Lord Sovereign]

"Let's do more of what caused the rise of populism in the first place whilst, right in front of an already disillusioned public who think we're illegitimate, trying to take away the ability to vote against us. Surely nothing can go horribly wrong somewhere down the line!"

Edit: "Oh yeah, and just to allay the heavily armed and angry Trump supporters's fears, we'll probably try to take their guns away and confirm every single fear they have about us. What can possible go wrong?"

These morons are completely drunk on power and are doing their best to ensure this all ends in bloodshed one day. Fools.

 

[Rocinante]

Because the things Republicans want to do to "prevent cheating" (which again, no massive fraud case was ever shown solid evidence of and dozens of cases on the topic were thrown out, even by Trump-appointed judges) also make it more difficult for people to vote, particularly minorities.

I'll give an example, from Texas. The Texas Secretary of State sent out a list of 95000 people that it claimed weren't citizens to remove from voter rolls, because at one point years back they had said they weren't citizens. But it turns out that (surprise!) you can actual become a citizen of the United States and register to vote even though you weren't a citizen before that. Tens of thousands of people on the list were shown to be citizens and legally allowed to vote before the whole thing was scrapped.

Another example, from North Carolina. The North Carolina voting law, allegedly to protect against fraud, deliberately chose restrictions that were most likely to affect black people.


By all actual evidence, voter fraud is extremely rare. Striking voter rolls, forcing ID laws, etc are likely to disenfranchise far more people than the actual number of false votes. If voting restrictions stop a whole bunch of lawful voters from exercising their Constitutional right to vote in an attempt to stop an extremely tiny amount of fraud, is that really better?

Oh so the The "minorities can't get ID" lie again.

You know, a very good portion of them find THAT lie to be racist? Claiming the poor blacks are too poor and dumb to get an ID is actually offensive.

But let's pretend your concern is real for a minute, rather than just an attempt to discredit something by slapping the "racist" sticker on it.... Look, if you can't afford $15-$20 every few years to get an ID, we can subsidize them for poor people. Personally I don't buy that line in the slightest bit, but I'm okay with a subsidized ID for poor people just to shut down that lie. It's worth the extra taxes to secure our elections.

But back to reality. There is no excuse for not having an ID, and the "voting ID is rayyyyysiiissst" lie is not going to work here. Most poor people do get IDs because they need them commonly as well.

Voting ID should be a national law. period. The fact that it isn't is a travesty, and the only reason Dems support banning ID requiements is because they're worried less people will vote for them if we have it. It really has nothing to do with race, but the left still thinks that's a good bludgeon to whack people over the head with.

 

[sander093]

Voting ID should be a national law. period. The fact that it isn't is a travesty, and the only reason Dems support banning ID requiements is because they're worried less people will vote for them if we have it. It really has nothing to do with race, but the left still thinks that's a good bludgeon to whack people over the head with.

As a canadian, the idea that you can vote without an ID is down right insane.

 

[Rocinante]

As a canadian, the idea that you can vote without an ID is down right insane.

I've heard this from many countries that are more liberal than us.

But no, it's raaaayyysssissssst. Blacks are too poor and dumb to buy IDs! We swear it's you guys who are the racists!

 

[Greengrass]

Oh so the The "minorities can't get ID" lie again.

You know, a very good portion of them find THAT lie to be racist? Claiming the poor blacks are too poor and dumb to get an ID is actually offensive.

But let's pretend your concern is real for a minute, rather than just an attempt to discredit something by slapping the "racist" sticker on it.... Look, if you can't afford $15-$20 every few years to get an ID, we can subsidize them for poor people. Personally I don't buy that line in the slightest bit, but I'm okay with a subsidized ID for poor people just to shut down that lie. It's worth the extra taxes to secure our elections.

But back to reality. There is no excuse for not having an ID, and the "voting ID is rayyyyysiiissst" lie is not going to work here. Most poor people do get IDs because they need them commonly as well.

Voting ID should be a national law. period. The fact that it isn't is a travesty, and the only reason Dems support banning ID requiements is because they're worried less people will vote for them if we have it. It really has nothing to do with race, but the left still thinks that's a good bludgeon to whack people over the head with.

Some facts from here

• Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.
• Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
  • Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
  • The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.
• Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.
• Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.
• States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
• Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.
• Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.

If you wanted to make a national ID free and extremely easy to get, and then make it required for voting, I wouldn't have a major problem with that. Strangely, however, none of the Republican attempts at voter ID make it free and extremely easy to get. Seems to be partially because of "number of the beast" nonsense, other times its stuff like the North Carolina law that was deliberately designed to hit African-Americans the hardest.

 

[Rocinante]

Some facts from here

• Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.
• Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
  • Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
  • The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.
• Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.
• Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.
• States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
• Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.
• Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.

If you wanted to make a national ID free and extremely easy to get, and then make it required for voting, I wouldn't have a major problem with that. Strangely, however, none of the Republican attempts at voter ID make it free and extremely easy to get.

I literally said we can subsidize them in my post so.....

 

[Greengrass]

I literally said we can subsidize them in my post so.....

You may want to, but when it comes to things that have actually been passed (or attempted to be passed) by Republicans about voter ID, that isn't really what happens.

 

[Rocinante]

You may want to, but when it comes to things that have actually been passed (or attempted to be passed), that isn't what happens.

This doesn't make ID laws racist.

And this doesn't make opposing them all together a sensible response.

A response from people who aren't just hoping to cheat and squeeze out as many votes as possible, would be "okay, we can do IDs but we need to subsidize them," but instead we get people like you shouting raaaaaaciiiist about it, because you know not having ID will score you a few extra votes.

We all see through it. You're willing to give up electoral security just to squeeze out a few votes. we know.

 

[Greengrass]

This doesn't make ID laws racist.

And this doesn't make opposing them all together a sensible response.

A response from people who aren't just hoping to cheat and squeeze out as many votes as possible, would be "okay, we can do IDs but we need to subsidize them," but instead we get people like you shouting raaaaaaciiiist about it b cause you know not having ID will score you a few extra votes.

We all see through it.

North Carolina literally asked for data on how people voted by race and then restricted the ways in which African-Americans voted most heavily.

After years of preclearance and expansion of voting access, by 2013 African American registration and turnout rates had finally reached near-parity with white registration and turnout rates. African Americans were poised to act as a major electoral force. But, on the day after the Supreme Court issued Shelby County v. Holder, 133 S. Ct. 2612 (2013), eliminating preclearance obligations, a leader of the party that newly dominated the legislature (and the party that rarely enjoyed African American support) announced an intention to enact what he characterized as an “omnibus” election law. Before enacting that law, the legislature requested data on the use, by race, of a number of voting practices. Upon receipt of the race data, the General Assembly enacted legislation that restricted voting and registration in five different ways, all of which disproportionately affected African Americans.

In response to claims that intentional racial discrimination animated its action, the State offered only meager justifications. Although the new provisions target African Americans with almost surgical precision, they constitute inapt remedies for the problems assertedly justifying them and, in fact, impose cures for problems that did not exist. Thus the asserted justifications cannot and do not conceal the State’s true motivation. “In essence,” as in League of United Latin American Citizens v. Perry (LULAC), 548 U.S. 399, 440 (2006), “the State took away [minority voters’] opportunity because [they] were about to exercise it.” As in LULAC, “[t]his bears the mark of intentional discrimination.” Id.

 

[Rocinante]

North Carolina literally asked for data on how people voted by race and then restricted the ways in which African-Americans voted most heavily.

A few states doing some shady things does not make the concept of having a voting ID racist.

You should have an ID to vote. It should be very simple and inexpensive to obtain this ID.

Do I need to dumb this down further for you? I can try...Vote ID good, make get simple.

 

[Greengrass]

A few states doing some shady things does not make the concept of having a voting ID racist.

You should have an ID to vote. It should be very simple and inexpensive to obtain this ID.

Do I need to dumb this down further for you? I can try...Vote ID good, make get simple.

And if what Republican politicians were passing and trying to get passed were Voter ID laws that included free IDs that were extremely easy to get, I wouldn't have a major problem with it. But that's not what is happening. What's happening is that the IDs cost money, the IDs that are chosen are ones that minorities are less likely to have than whites, that travel to get these IDs can be burdensome, and there's no provisions for making these IDs free or easy to get.

 

[Rocinante]

And if what Republican politicians were passing and trying to get passed were Voter ID laws that included free IDs that were extremely easy to get, I wouldn't have a major problem with it. But that's not what is happening. What's happening is that the IDs cost money, the IDs that are chosen are ones that minorities are less likely to have than whites, that travel to get these IDs can be burdensome, and there's no provisions for making these IDs free or easy to get.

Yeah, and yours and most of the rest of the left's response is "just no ID period, raaaaaaciiiist" instead of "well okay let's have ID, but let's make it easy to get and affordable."

It's easy to see through. You think you have a better chance of winning elections if there is no ID requiements. Me? I don't even care who wins so long as it was a secure process.

I mean, sure, I have my preferences. But if having a national voter ID benefited the democrats, I'd still be demanding a voter ID.

 

[LindyAF]

I see zero reason why making sure absolutely everyone can vote, even if it compromises election integrity, is a moral good tbh.

We're a republic, not a democracy.

 

[LordsFire]

Let's look at this claims specifically, because it's absolute garbage nonsense. The number of poll watchers per party was supposed to be 134, but both Republicans and Democrats brought more than that and had more than 200 each. Those poll watchers were inside when the the windows were blocked because additional Republicans were pressing themselves up against the windows, banging on them and chanting loudly as well as trying to film inside from the outside, which is not allowed. There was never a time when there were not a bunch of Republican poll watchers in the room.

If you want people to take your claims seriously, stop pushing lies just because they fit your beliefs.

As for the affadavits, aside from the ones that are just flat out lies or very bad math based on made up numbers, many of them are just from people who don't know how the process works and assume that anything they see must be fraud.

Congratulations, you've cited partisan left media sources. Shall I cite a list of partisan right media sources in counter? I'd link you to an interview first-hand from a poll watcher that goes on for thirty minutes...

But oh look, Youtube removed it!

Even setting that aside, assuming your cites are correct, that addresses three out of hundreds of issues.

Expert Witness Claims He Hacked Into Georgia Runoff Election System

“At this very moment at a polling location in the county, not only do we now have access to the devices through the poll pad — the system — but we are in.”

rumble.com

I could go on. I have dozens of links about voter fraud, and I'll remind you that several key swing states had margins of like 20,000 votes. It doesn't take all that much fraud to pull it off.

And if what Republican politicians were passing and trying to get passed were Voter ID laws that included free IDs that were extremely easy to get, I wouldn't have a major problem with it. But that's not what is happening. What's happening is that the IDs cost money, the IDs that are chosen are ones that minorities are less likely to have than whites, that travel to get these IDs can be burdensome, and there's no provisions for making these IDs free or easy to get.

This argument is false, and it's easy to prove it.

Here's a handy image that lists all the things you need a photo ID to do (or get access to the service initially):

Yet, we do not hear Democrats out there demanding that all these things remove Photo ID requirement. If the Democrat argument that Photo ID requirements are racist was honest, there would have been constant, long-running campaigns to get Photo ID requirements removed from all of these other things as well.

But through my entire life I have not even heard of a whisper about such things. Even if there is a whisper somewhere that I haven't heard of, the fact that it's not as loud a demand as their insistence that ID to vote is racist proves that it's not a serious argument.

So no, the argument 'requiring photo ID is racist' does not hold any water at all to people who don't start with a prejudicial and groundless assumption that Republicans and Conservatives are racists.

 

[Sailor.X]

I am just gonna post this here.

https://sports.yahoo.com/video/ami-horowitz-white-liberals-really-152313204.html

 

[GoldRanger]

Because the things Republicans want to do to "prevent cheating" (which again, no massive fraud case was ever shown solid evidence of and dozens of cases on the topic were thrown out, even by Trump-appointed judges) also make it more difficult for people to vote, particularly minorities.

I'll give an example, from Texas. The Texas Secretary of State sent out a list of 95000 people that it claimed weren't citizens to remove from voter rolls, because at one point years back they had said they weren't citizens. But it turns out that (surprise!) you can actual become a citizen of the United States and register to vote even though you weren't a citizen before that. Tens of thousands of people on the list were shown to be citizens and legally allowed to vote before the whole thing was scrapped.

Another example, from North Carolina. The North Carolina voting law, allegedly to protect against fraud, deliberately chose restrictions that were most likely to affect black people.


By all actual evidence, voter fraud is extremely rare. Striking voter rolls, forcing ID laws, etc are likely to disenfranchise far more people than the actual number of false votes. If voting restrictions stop a whole bunch of lawful voters from exercising their Constitutional right to vote in an attempt to stop an extremely tiny amount of fraud, is that really better?

Is there even a single democratic country in the world outside the US that allows voting without ID? Because to me it sounds completely insane.