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Examining Colonialism

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Dude Whazzup?
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A low IQ people that for most of history were basically living in mud holes reverted back to that state when a higher IQ more advanced people left? Imagine my shock.
All of our ancestors used to live in shitty housing.

Considering human stupidity from people seen in the West I'm not sure if it's IQ and more due to bad habits of their culture while following the tribal mentality that can make Arab armies shit.

I honestly wonder for all the claims of unity, will people go back to killing each other for usual reasons like resources now that their colonial overlords left? In South Africa I remember a man squeezing someones eyes out in public while nobody interfered in a xenophobic attack over bad employment conditions.

Naturally it wasn't appreciated.

Yemen's a fun one when I look at what South Yemen had before.
 
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Here's an example of this legal colonialism through legal migration I found. Portuguese going to Mozambique a former colony of theirs to make a living when back home things are shit. The locals didn't like that.

 

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Which one? The bantus killing, conquering and raping thier way across Africa. Is at least as bad as anything the Euros did. I'd imagine thier were various conquests before them to. So which set of colonialism shouldn't have happened?
You just made me realise something. Whatever fancy word is said like this colonialism shit it comes down to migration at the biological level.

Both animal and human migration have their quirks but it all comes down to resources in the end. The European Empires in the end were simply repeating what their ancestors did to their other ancestor during the Barbarian Invasions, Roman expansion and even before that.
 

LordsFire

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Colonialism is an extremely complicated issue. Making a land-grab for simple greed is not moral.

Leaving the nations in a far more prosperous state when you withdraw is a moral thing to do.

Blaming people who had conquered your nation for problems that crop up as they pull out is reasonable.

Blaming them for everything that goes wrong in your nation sixty years later is not reasonable.


I'd absolutely say that the meme of 'colonialism is one of the greatest of all sins' has grown way out of proportion, and is definitely more lie and excuse than truth at this point. When the leftist academia and SJW types start criticizing Islam for its colonization of Africa, Anatolia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent, and SE Asia, I'll give them more credence.
 

Lanmandragon

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All of our ancestors used to live in shitty housing.

Considering human stupidity from people seen in the West I'm not sure if it's IQ and more due to bad habits of their culture while following the tribal mentality that can make Arab armies shit.

I honestly wonder for all the claims of unity, will people go back to killing each other for usual reasons like resources now that their colonial overlords left? In South Africa I remember a man squeezing someones eyes out in public while nobody interfered in a xenophobic attack over bad employment conditions.

Naturally it wasn't appreciated.

Yemen's a fun one when I look at what South Yemen had before.
These places need to be allowed that violence. This is how society's advance it's not like Europe just had the enlightment. It was preceeded by millennia of warfare and destruction. People as a group cannot be taught to he civilized. They must come to this conclusion on thier own through blood and fire.
 

CarlManvers2019

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These places need to be allowed that violence. This is how society's advance it's not like Europe just had the enlightment. It was preceeded by millennia of warfare and destruction. People as a group cannot be taught to he civilized. They must come to this conclusion on thier own through blood and fire.
Any chance you read Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers?

“Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not - and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

“The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. . . . A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual's instinct to survive--and nowhere else!--and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts.
We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race . . . .
The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

Because what you just said, sounds a LOT like his work
 

Lanmandragon

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Any chance you read Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers?

“Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not - and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

“The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. . . . A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual's instinct to survive--and nowhere else!--and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts.
We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race . . . .
The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

Because what you just said, sounds a LOT like his work
Yes but I come ttoy conclusion based in Historical knowledge not heinlins work.
 

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Making a land-grab for simple greed is not moral.
Regardless of morality, I feel if someone wishes to take what they want and is able to get away with it they will do it. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must like the Mellian dialogue which keeps changing like a musical chair. One minute you're strong and can dictate what you please and then suddenly you're weak and the tables have turned.

These places need to be allowed that violence. This is how society's advance it's not like Europe just had the enlightment. It was preceeded by millennia of warfare and destruction. People as a group cannot be taught to he civilized. They must come to this conclusion on thier own through blood and fire.
With the world connnected as it is, it's not that easy to do for any wannabe neo imperialist. Still just like good old Bill someone can let a genocide or two continue if a country so chooses to start killing each other.
 

CarlManvers2019

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Regardless of morality, I feel if someone wishes to take what they want and is able to get away with it they will do it. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must like the Mellian dialogue which keeps changing like a musical chair. One minute you're strong and can dictate what you please and then suddenly you're weak and the tables have turned.
I think too many people have forgotten about this and actively deny it and it's extended to even making people suicidal-pseudo-pacifists unlikely to defend themselves ahead of time, unwilling to admit that force/violence is what helps keep them owning what they own
 

Lanmandragon

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Honestly all colonialism was is a particularly lopsided conquest. Human beings wage wars of conquest as a matter of course. Hell the one and only reason it isn't still publically done is nukes. Even then both China and Russia are actively if quitley conquering.
 

CarlManvers2019

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Honestly all colonialism was is a particularly lopsided conquest. Human beings wage wars of conquest as a matter of course. Hell the one and only reason it isn't still publically done is nukes. Even then both China and Russia are actively if quitley conquering.
One of the things I was taught in school regarding colonialism, was the colony simply put NOT being truly part of the nation itself

Just being something to tax and get resources from

Hell, from what I recall, my country’s national hero actually wanted political reform and maybe for the Philippines to have more say in Spanish Politics
 

Lanmandragon

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One of the things I was taught in school regarding colonialism, was the colony simply put NOT being truly part of the nation itself

Just being something to tax and get resources from

Hell, from what I recall, my country’s national hero actually wanted political reform and maybe for the Philippines to have more say in Spanish Politics
That's whatan empire is you extract wealth. Sometimes through directly taking it other times through tribute. This is how everyone from the akkadians to the Brits operated. The only thing the Euros did different was scale. Due to extreme tech disparity it's still just conquest.
 

CarlManvers2019

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That's whatan empire is you extract wealth. Sometimes through directly taking it other times through tribute. This is how everyone from the akkadians to the Brits operated. The only thing the Euros did different was scale. Due to extreme tech disparity it's still just conquest.
And there was also the thing of huge distance, will be harder to govern a colony when you have to cross oceans to even get word

Say, you interested in Alternate History? I know a fic involving Cold War-Britain having to deal with itself being sent to the past and the problem in that even its Tories were shocked and against the idea of Imperialism or becoming an Empire and got even more surprised when Native Americans, Africans, British Colonists etc wanted to be annexed
 

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I don't know if it'll happen but after the bomb and an unpopular government that is utter shit at their job the possibility of welcoming former colonisers with open arms in exchange for stability is a surprising trend to follow.

 

Marduk

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France is unwilling and not necessarily politically capable to handle such a mess, especially considering the growing political influence of its islamic minority. It would also be a perfect example of the mentioned scenarios where colonies aren't worth it for the colonizer, and France currently has plenty of issues with its "former" colony buddies in Africa already.

Ironically, USA could be interested, just like in many such cases the colonizers were, for geostrategic reasons (Middle East, Hezbollah central, do the math), but again, the legalities and politics would be incredibly nasty on the US side, and its also telling that this call was not extended to the USA.

Secondly, the idea of self-governance works well only in reasonably homogenous, or at least solidly dominated by a not too harsh national group.
Unfortunately Lebanon is a case of the opposite - a lot of the Shia would rather be ruled Iranian foreigners than their Chrisitian and Sunni "compatriots", and likewise, those would find more in common with foreigners who the Shia consider great enemies than with their Hezbollah supporting neighbors.
So, the what is the "self" in self-governance in such a case?
On a very conceptual level its just non applicable to such countries.

That's whatan empire is you extract wealth. Sometimes through directly taking it other times through tribute. This is how everyone from the akkadians to the Brits operated. The only thing the Euros did different was scale. Due to extreme tech disparity it's still just conquest.
Its less nukes, and more the economics and politics of it.
After all, nuclear powers would not be high on the list of potential colonisation targets. Countries that can't even put together half a functional armored division would be.

For western powers, the internal political factors combined with the high cost of using a modern army in the field to "win the peace" (see: Afghanistan) vs the potential benefits (resources which they may aswell get by paying local head honcho to have his semi-slave labor do it, or stand aside as western corporations do it) are the main showstopper.
For non-western medium powers, its the threat of military and non military intervention from western "international order" establishment and their local peers.
For non-western major powers, the western media and political establishment could annoy them somewhat with non-military interventions, but overall they are the ones doing it, "silently" for the sake of being left alone.
 
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France is unwilling and not necessarily politically capable to handle such a mess, especially considering the growing political influence of its islamic minority. It would also be a perfect example of the mentioned scenarios where colonies aren't worth it for the colonizer, and France currently has plenty of issues with its "former" colony buddies in Africa already.

Ironically, USA could be interested, just like in many such cases the colonizers were, for geostrategic reasons (Middle East, Hezbollah central, do the math), but again, the legalities and politics would be incredibly nasty on the US side, and its also telling that this call was not extended to the USA.

Secondly, the idea of self-governance makes works well only in reasonably homogenous, or at least solidly dominated by a not too harsh national group.
Unfortunately Lebanon is a case of the opposite - a lot of the Shia would rather be ruled Iranian foreigners than their Chrisitian and Sunni "compatriots", and likewise, those would find more in common with foreigners who the Shia consider great enemies than with their Hezbollah supporting neighbors.
So, the what is the "self" in self-governance in such a case?
On a very conceptual level its just non applicable to such countries.
Stranger things have happened. I woke up one day just to find Lebanon had a big ass explosion because of corruption and government approval is at rock bottom.

If things don't get better for Lebanon that petition will increase when the idea sinks in further and if Macron won't do it one of his successors might consider it. I don't know why they'd do it but I could ask the same of many questionable decisions going on in the middle east like Iraq and Libya.
 
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I honestly doubt anything would come of it. The politics and optics would be beyond nightmarish. Notwithstanding that IIRC French rule in what became Lebanon was relatively brief IIRC. 26 years from the declaration of the mandate to the withdrawal of the French.

Not to mention economic and security concerns, the French would be saddled with lebanon’s problems and refugees. And they have enough of both of those on their own.

The western powers are not likely to establish colonial rule again. Ever.
 

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I honestly doubt anything would come of it. The politics and optics would be beyond nightmarish. Notwithstanding that IIRC French rule in what became Lebanon was relatively brief IIRC. 26 years from the declaration of the mandate to the withdrawal of the French.

Not to mention economic and security concerns, the French would be saddled with lebanon’s problems and refugees. And they have enough of both of those on their own.

The western powers are not likely to establish colonial rule again. Ever.
Just not in our lifetimes. Our leaders just love to tell their people to stick their dicks in a blender for some cause.

Last couple of years I saw the Russians annex the Crimea right under the West's noses.

If some country wants to do something ill advised they'll do it and drag the rest of us down with them.
 
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Hastur of Carcosa

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People don't learn from history they learn the ultimate final lessons at the reciving end of a sword or a rifel right before the weilder uses it and by then it's too late. For some reason it takes generations for peole tp realize there life is cheap before they decide to actualy do somthing about it, and within a generation or two people forget the hsrd lessons of what happened before and become nostalgic for a past that never existed. Africa can't prosper if we keep trying to safe it from itself. Heck I'm not at all convinced we can't even save ourselves should america decide to collapse, it will most not be an homognous ethnostate, but rather a bunch of fractured substates like it was in the early industrial era prior to WW1
 
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