Finland's and Sweden's NATO accession following thread.

sad thing is they litterally did it to themselves.

They did, yes. But France will remain a major power (and start to act like it), Germany still has some strength left (but it is weakening and they are incredibly well-coordinated, and are rearming as we speak), and the UK (after swallowing its pride) will align itself fully with the US.
 
I absolutely disagree. Weapon technology and communications have increased our reach, but it hasn't altered our geography in a significant way.
Yes they fucking did. Every kilometer of distance buffer is worth less now, as planes, missiles and radars have more range. You are dramatically underestimating what a shitshow for global economy and its logistics would China's expansion wars be. *No one* would be able to avoid the fallout of that.
If China were to weaponize say, the internet, to attack our infrastructure, we can literally just severe the cabal links that connects them to the rest of the world. Countries like Russia and Egypt already have an inverse in place; cutting themselves off from the web to isolate dissidents.

China lacks the projection power to threaten anyone besides its immediate neighbors and regardless of the current fashion of lone-wolf diplomacy, China is not an irrational actor.
What stops them from using third countries as gateways for cyberattacks, including those it has land or sat connections with? Are you going to cut yourself off from everyone too?
What about all the China manufactured stuff NATO countries are reliant on imports of? You think China will not try to manipulate them through that? See: COVID crisis supply woes.
Whereas, if NATO had agreed not to let Ukraine into its membership (and there was really no reason to let Ukraine in anyway) and Ukraine had been sensible about its actual strength (but was not, because it thought that it had the aegis of the West), then Ukraine would have most probably of remained under the thumb of Russia or at the worst, become a puppet state. Which is no huge loss, considering how laughably corrupt Ukraine is.
As typical of a country that was under the thumb of Russia for past decades, including Russia itself...
See the pattern here?
It would be silly for Russian Empire rebuilding to be tolerated because they made sure that the countries that used to be part of it, or are on the way there, run like shit. It's Russia's ambitions that are the problem, and successes in pursuing them are about the last thing that will prevent them from throwing their weight around more.
The Ukrainian grain, yes.
Consider where that grain was going to... It's in fact a big self-own against Russia's leftover global political pull.

From what I understand, fracking isn't all that easy to get to and the best places to do it are off the top of my head, the US, China, and Russia. The latter two lack the technological sophistication and experience to actually tap into it and even if they started today, it would probably take 10-20 years before it got any real yields. And it's not like Russia really needs it at the moment.
It's not technology, that can be imported, the bigger problem is economic viability in terms long term business/financial rights, considering the investments needed, which in case of Russia and China are "what if suddenly Putin's or Xi's pals decide to just nationalize everything". Europe meanwhile has greens and socialists. USA was about the only country that had enough pro-businesses to get someone to risk the investments, and even then greens with DNC fucked it up.

What Europe should be doing is trying to restore their military capability so THEY can deal with the Middle East. Because it's not our problem anymore. France is actually probably going to be fine, since they have some West African countries that are basically part of a hidden Neo-French Empire that has yet to awaken. Once shit hits the fan, you can expect France to change the way it does business.

But apart from them and MAYBE the Brits, all of Europe simply lacks projection power.
That's hilariously bad analysis, considering where West Africa is, how well is France doing there, and how much benefit is it getting out of that.
It's also quite illustrative of the main problems here being political, while the means are the easy thing to fix comparatively.
They are getting elbowed out of their old "sphere of influence" by friggin Russian totally non state mercs out of all people.
Power projection is worthless if your political leadership can't use it in a smart way, in fact then it's a cost generating liability because it will be used to create messes rather than clean them (see: French involvement with Libya).
If France was using its power projection competently, then the thing flowing from Libya to the EU in large quantities would be hydrocarbons, not illegal immigrants.
 
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If France was using its power projection competently, then the thing flowing from Libya to the EU in large quantities would be hydrocarbons, not illegal immigrants.

The Libyans themselves could also benefit if they'll get a stable, democratic government from this.

Anyway:

 
@History Learner What are your own thoughts on Finland and Sweden joining NATO?

If they don't comply with Turkey's demands it becomes a non-issue because Ankara will veto it and that's that. Personal speculation is this was one of the main issues behind the recent Putin-Erdogan meeting; Putin is probably selling Karabakh for Turkey to veto Finnish and Swedish membership in NATO.
 
If they don't comply with Turkey's demands it becomes a non-issue because Ankara will veto it and that's that. Personal speculation is this was one of the main issues behind the recent Putin-Erdogan meeting; Putin is probably selling Karabakh for Turkey to veto Finnish and Swedish membership in NATO.

That would mean the Armenians in Karabakh get ethnically cleansed and that Armenia could eventually become so fed up with Russia that it exits the Eurasian Economic Union, no?
 
If they don't comply with Turkey's demands it becomes a non-issue because Ankara will veto it and that's that. Personal speculation is this was one of the main issues behind the recent Putin-Erdogan meeting; Putin is probably selling Karabakh for Turkey to veto Finnish and Swedish membership in NATO.

my money is that the finns and sweeds sell out the kurds and that Turkey allows enterance.

Russia has been a longterm enemy and rival to turkey for hundreds of years, giving russia that one last push to crush them once and for all leaves the feild for turky to dominate the middle east if it wants to.
 
That would mean the Armenians in Karabakh get ethnically cleansed and that Armenia could eventually become so fed up with Russia that it exits the Eurasian Economic Union, no?

And suddenly be left sandwiched between Turkey and Azerbajian with no patron capable of restraining the latter two? The U.S. has no real power projection there, same for India and China. Iran is a poor substitute for Russia. The Armenians know all of this, and this is why they've stayed with Russia after 2020.
 
And suddenly be left sandwiched between Turkey and Azerbajian with no patron capable of restraining the latter two? The U.S. has no real power projection there, same for India and China. Iran is a poor substitute for Russia. The Armenians know all of this, and this is why they've stayed with Russia after 2020.

Russia also saved most of Karabakh for them in 2020. As for US power projection, Turkey is fairly close nearby, no? The US could theoretically use Turkey to project its power into both Georgia and Armenia, no?
 
Russia also saved most of Karabakh for them in 2020. As for US power projection, Turkey is fairly close nearby, no? The US could theoretically use Turkey to project its power into both Georgia and Armenia, no?

Projecting power from Turkey to protect Armenia....from Turkey? Why would Ankara ever agree to that?

As for 2020, consider that in 2016 during the short conflict then Russia stepped in and protected all of Karabakh; Armenia then started flirting with EU membership and then 2020 happened without Russian interference. The message was loud and clear to everyone involved, and explains why Armenia didn't flip camps after 2020.
 
Projecting power from Turkey to protect Armenia....from Turkey? Why would Ankara ever agree to that?

As for 2020, consider that in 2016 during the short conflict then Russia stepped in and protected all of Karabakh; Armenia then started flirting with EU membership and then 2020 happened without Russian interference. The message was loud and clear to everyone involved, and explains why Armenia didn't flip camps after 2020.

If Ankara already secured Karabakh for Azerbaijan as well as a corridor between itself and Azerbaijan, then what else could it actually want from Armenia? Having NATO protect two of its members from one another isn't a radical idea: Hungary and Romania are likely both kept in check by NATO, after all.

AFAIK, Armenia didn't flip camps in 2020 because most of Karabakh still kept its independence even after that disastrous war. But if that will no longer be the case, then what trump cards will Russia have left with Armenia? At that point, might as well seek a full rapprochement with Turkey and Azerbaijan and also seek Western integration, no?
 
If Ankara already secured Karabakh for Azerbaijan as well as a corridor between itself and Azerbaijan, then what else could it actually want from Armenia? Having NATO protect two of its members from one another isn't a radical idea: Hungary and Romania are likely both kept in check by NATO, after all.

At that point, what does Armenia gain becomes the better question? Likewise, why would Turkey allow the chance for Armenia to revive? Neither side gains from this.

AFAIK, Armenia didn't flip camps in 2020 because most of Karabakh still kept its independence even after that disastrous war. But if that will no longer be the case, then what trump cards will Russia have left with Armenia? At that point, might as well seek a full rapprochement with Turkey and Azerbaijan and also seek Western integration, no?

They didn't flip because it was a pretty clear showing of what the consequences of flipping would be; they flirted with the West and lost much of Karabkh as a result. If all of Karabkh is lost, Armenia still has its own territorial integrity to worry about because the Turks have been open about wanting to establish a full land corridor between Azerbaijan's parts.
 
At that point, what does Armenia gain becomes the better question? Likewise, why would Turkey allow the chance for Armenia to revive? Neither side gains from this.



They didn't flip because it was a pretty clear showing of what the consequences of flipping would be; they flirted with the West and lost much of Karabkh as a result. If all of Karabkh is lost, Armenia still has its own territorial integrity to worry about because the Turks have been open about wanting to establish a full land corridor between Azerbaijan's parts.

Armenia gets the chance to eventually become a part of a 500+ million-strong European Union, presumably. As for an Armenian revival, that's rather difficult when Turkey is much more populous and powerful than Armenia itself is. Most likely is that a huge part of Armenia's population leaves for the EU once it is able to do so, which will obviously be to Turkey's benefit.

Wouldn't the West oppose such blatant Turkish aggression if Armenia will become a Western ally, though? I mean, this is like Turkey attacking Greece, not Turkey attacking neutral Cyprus.
 
Armenia gets the chance to eventually become a part of a 500+ million-strong European Union, presumably. As for an Armenian revival, that's rather difficult when Turkey is much more populous and powerful than Armenia itself is. Most likely is that a huge part of Armenia's population leaves for the EU once it is able to do so, which will obviously be to Turkey's benefit.

Which, again, begs the question of what does Armenia gain? What you've just described is Armenia being destroyed as a nation and then its inhabitants being leached off for the benefits of others, not Armenia itself.

Wouldn't the West oppose such blatant Turkish aggression if Armenia will become a Western ally, though? I mean, this is like Turkey attacking Greece, not Turkey attacking neutral Cyprus.

Why would they piss off a more powerful Turkey for weak little Armenia?
 
Which, again, begs the question of what does Armenia gain? What you've just described is Armenia being destroyed as a nation and then its inhabitants being leached off for the benefits of others, not Armenia itself.



Why would they piss off a more powerful Turkey for weak little Armenia?

Armenia gets to become a part of a much larger bloc. 450-500 million vs. 200 million.

Why would the Turks be pissed off? If they'll already secure Karabakh for Azerbaijan, then I would think that they would want improved relations with Armenia as well, no? Especially if Armenia will allow Azerbaijani goods and people to flow through the corridor that separates the two parts of Azerbaijan:

2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_ceasefire_map.svg
 
Slovakia ratified our NATO appslications today bringing Finnish and Swedish NATO appslication ratification counts to 28/30 with us only needing Hungary and Turkey to ratify our applications.
 
Let's hope that they will quickly join! This will strengthen NATO's northern front vs. Russia. Just like in World War II, Russia's greatest strength was on its southern front while it was weaker on its northern front. By attacking Ukraine, Russia paved the way for further Nordic NATO expansion.
Ukraine officially applies for NATO membership
 

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