Terthna
Professional Lurker
Except the foundation of the moral system predates the Christian God, and was laid by Greek philosophers hundreds of years before the birth of Christ.
Five minutes of hate news
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King Arts
Well-known member
Ehh kinda but not really. Equality of people is derived from Christianity. Pagan Greeks did not ascribe to it. They had rights for citizens for the in group but inalienable rights that all people have?
That is something that was butchered from Christianity.
Bigking321
Well-known member
I usually try and avoid jumping into these.
But I am dying laughing over here. 🤣
I don't mean to offend but it is profoundly hilarious to claim Christian morals originate from the birth of Christ.
You couldn't really say anything to make it more obvious you are missing some things when it comes to Christianity.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
And yet mysteriously you didn't get this kind of catastrophic failure when Christians threw out the metaphysical foundations of incredibly large numbers of preceding customs, to say nothing of the more distant conversions where multiple fundamental lifestyle changes had to occur to even start adhering to Christian morals.
Because pre-Christian moral systems weren't littered with points of failure like Christianity is. It isn't just "remove God", it's also "remove the Papacy" with how Catholic catechism explicitly relied on the worldly institution, and a long series of obtuse metaphysical claims because of the obsession with right thinking making nearly everything interdependent.
You couldn't present material fact contradicting scripture and move on with the pursuit of natural sciences, because scriptural infallibility made any such contradiction an existential threat to the logical validity of the entire worldview. Catholicism only works when you assume it right on everything it says, the ossification turned it into a monolith where any one thing being wrong sends the whole complex collapsing.
Note, this is not actually Christianity at large. This is specifically the top-down ivory-tower "Right Thinking to the point of needing Emperors to drag you to the table so you'd quit starting street riots over theological minutia". Orthodoxy as decided by a singular organization is, in terms of social function, a very bad thing.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Admittedly, they did build quite a bit on that foundation; but they didn't build the foundation itself.
Maybe you should keep avoiding jumping in, because your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired; considering I was explicitly arguing the idea that Christian morals were built off of what came before Christianity.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Yeah, when you ditch an inferior moral system for a superior one, you don't have catastrophic results.
But when you ditch a superior moral system, for an inferior moral system, you do get catastrophic results.
Kind of funny how that works out.
I mean that's certainly true. The Judaic laws laid down by God, then the Commandments given to Moses. They were reinforced by Jesus while he was alive.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
ahhahahahahhahahahah
As a half Latino and hater of the elites, this is GOLD!
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Which is another fair point, that many Christians prefer to overlook.
If we're honest here, Christianity is strongly vulnerable to the wokeness infection, not some barrier to it. Christian features of empathy, collectivism, and will to action are all vulnerable to hijacking. The most obvious is liberation theology, but there's also a joke about the Great Awokening. Except that's exactly and literally what we are experiencing. The U.S. has a pattern of periods of religious insanity heavily centered on New England and its universities and we are at the proper time. Both self-righteousness and self-destruction were features of the previous Great Awakenings.
This is not to say that the Christian virtues so easily twisted into wokeness are bad things, but claiming them to be prophylactic simply isn't true. Even though most wokesters have abandoned religion entirely, that's entirely unnecessary for wokeness, as woke Pope should make obvious. If all woke were forced by societal pressure to continue to publicly adhere to Christianity, they would continue to do exactly the same things, and would not be easily distinguishable from the crazier sects of the last Great Awakenings. Including sexual perversion: it's amazing how often the themes of free love, group marriages, and voluntary extinction come up in the history of extreme Christian sects.
This is not to say that the Christian virtues so easily twisted into wokeness are bad things, but claiming them to be prophylactic simply isn't true. Even though most wokesters have abandoned religion entirely, that's entirely unnecessary for wokeness, as woke Pope should make obvious. If all woke were forced by societal pressure to continue to publicly adhere to Christianity, they would continue to do exactly the same things, and would not be easily distinguishable from the crazier sects of the last Great Awakenings. Including sexual perversion: it's amazing how often the themes of free love, group marriages, and voluntary extinction come up in the history of extreme Christian sects.
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No, you don't understand! You can't have a moral system without the belief in a deity! Even though countless people in history lived good lives without even knowing what Abrahamic gods were!Can you religious types maybe stop turning literally every thread into a religious debate?
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Tucker Carlson On Ukraine NGO Myrotvorets' 'Kill List' After Putin Interview? Twitter Claims Fact-Checked
American journalist Tucker Carlson has been placed on the Ukrainian NGO Myrotvorets' 'Kill List'. Social media has come out in support of Carlson, with users calling Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy a 'dictator' for using a Kyiv based doxing website grossly nicknamed "Peace Maker" against...
www.timesnownews.com
The "pro-bono" "NGO" from the Ukraine is allegedly trying to doxx Tucker Carlson, with obvious potential lethal consequences. (EDIT : IT WAS EVEN BEFORE THE INTERVIEW BUT APPARENTLY IT IS RESURFACING NOW EVEN MORE) But I guess they are used to doing this and getting away with it.
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Killing Tucker Carlson would be the dumbest move Ukraine ever makes. The number of people who will then ask to pull out of all support for Ukraine will be in the millions. THEN they'll call for strikes against Ukraine as well.Tucker Carlson On Ukraine NGO Myrotvorets' 'Kill List' After Putin Interview? Twitter Claims Fact-Checked
American journalist Tucker Carlson has been placed on the Ukrainian NGO Myrotvorets' 'Kill List'. Social media has come out in support of Carlson, with users calling Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy a 'dictator' for using a Kyiv based doxing website grossly nicknamed "Peace Maker" against...
The "pro-bono" "NGO" from the Ukraine is allegedly trying to doxx Tucker Carlson, with obvious potential lethal consequences. But I guess they are used to doing this and getting away with it.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Who said anyone from was bright enough in Myrotvorets to give a rat's ass about it? Hell, the EU is thinking about sanctioning him with...what? He's not even an EU citizen.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
mrttao
Well-known member
Same
mrttao
Well-known member
Yes, in addition to it, the original sin got hijacked from "eating the fruit of knowledge" to "being born white" and "nazies"
Yup. People like saying that unlike Christianity, the Woke offer no salvation for Original Sin, but that's also no real distinction. Lack of salvation for those not among the Elect is a common feature of many Protestant Christian denominations, and reoccurring throughout history in pre-Reformation sects. And Wokeness offers instead abnegation of the Self, which is also has long historical basis in Christian mysticism (inherited from Jewish and Greek mysticism).
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
Again with your conclusion assuming your premise is correct. No, Catholicism is not a superior moral system with regard to ideological conflict, because the obsessive logical formulations to connect absolutely everything in the scripture together into as cohesive a worldview as possible creates points of failure on things that do not fucking matter or are outright bad like having a singular worldly institution as sole moral arbiter.
And the earlier forms of Christianity that displaced Roman religion were an utter clusterfuck. Again, street riots over theological minutia, whether it be the contents of the Eucharist in terms of transubstantiation or the internal nature of Christ. Yet the churning mass of barely-related post-Judeo-Stoic mostly-nonsense did not create catastrophic results like the churning mass of barely-related post-Christian mostly-nonsense, because people were used to questioning ideology.
There was a healthy ecosystem of varied baselines to what you thought was right and why you thought that so and established customs to handle different moral standards, things Christianity went out of its way to be rid of. And without those, when the Catholic Church inevitably discredited its moral system for huge swaths of Europe by being corrupt elitist cunts, you got nonsense because people couldn't behave themselves dealing with those of minutely different framework for mostly-identical moral standards, let alone the coming shitshow of post-Christian utopians deriving irreconcilably different frameworks for wildly divergent moral standards.
Queue Wars of Religion and the assorted madness of the 20th century.