Versus Match GDI Zone Trooper/Raider vs Clan Elementals

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
Okay, but that's not what I asked, is it?

As far as that weaponry, going off that specific description it's pretty old hat by BT standards.

Flamers are a simple weapon with a long history, designed as much for psychological warfare as for devastation. Most effective as anti-infantry
weapons, today’s heavy-weapon models of the flamer come in two basic types: fusion-powered plasma flamers-
TechManual pg 218

The energy-based equivalent of the Gauss rifle, the particle projector cannon (PPC for short) is one of the most powerful non-ballistic
weapons ever devised for the modern battlefield. Consisting of a magnetic accelerator, firing high-energy proton or ion bolts, PPCs can
flay armor through kinetic and thermal damage. ... these particle cannons have excellent reach for the tactical battlefield and can vaporize about two tons of standard militarygrade armor in just three solid hits. -
TechManual pg 233

At the time of this document, plasma weaponry—which uses a lasing process to flash cartridges of plastic foam into white-hot projectiles—was
an infantry support weapon fielded by the Capellan Confederation for battle armor use only.-
TechManual pg 234

So just saying "It's hot plasma" doesn't mean much. Do we have any comparisons with something that would be common between universes, like bolts of lightning? Or instances of Scrin weaponry vaporizing two tons of anything in a known number of hits? 'Cause I'm really not up on my C&C lore and genuinely don't know, but I'd like to see actual feats rather than just saying they have plasma.
Unfortunately, the lore behind plasma weaponry is pretty sparse, so all we can do is by conjecture based on examples and what we know in comparison to other weapons/armour types.

Okay, bit of rambling stream of consciousness here:

All that's really known is that the Brotherhood initially reverse-engineered and produced cruder and more limited copies of Scrin weaponry for use in their Cyborg Commandos and Banshee units (later abandoning them in favour of charged particle beam weaponry and tried and true lasers), that they're tiberium-fueled in some way, and that the Scrin use them extensively and without signs of limitation on their ammunition or rate-of-fire.

A flight of three Banshees were capable of downing a Mammoth Mark II, however, indicating that GDI armour technology at the time was incapable of resisting plasma weaponry (or at least the Brotherhood's crude approximation of it): The Mammoth Mark II was also shown to be resisting, without any issue, the laser strikes of a second generation Obelisk of Light; the first generations were shown to be able to completely destroy light vehicles and main battle tanks in a single shot.

So, it appears that GDI metallurgy and armour technology during the Second Tiberium War was strong enough to resist Obelisk strikes at its best (while their mainline forces, like the Titan, being carved up like a turkey at Thanksgiving), but not enough to resist cruder plasma weaponry.

There must have been a hell of an upgrade in the next seventeen years, though, as first generation zone armour pretty much doesn't have these issues (see below).

Nod flame weaponry is a bit contradictionary in the sense that the designers behind C&C (the later games anyway) didn't do their research: The upgrade for the Black Hand subfaction is Purifying Flame (~2030's in-universe), that uses a "tiberium-carbon" blend for fuel and turns the flames 'blue' and 'hotter'.

Even ordinary flamethrowers used in the Second World War were roughly at 3000 degrees as they were deploying, and the flames were, well, yellow. Nod's flames were also yellow, indicating that the temperature was at least 3000 degrees (and this is with conventional fuels, not including whatever exotic bullshit they came out with due to tiberium) on their flamethrower tanks and infantry during the First and Second Tiberium Wars.

So, for the flames to turn "blue" indicates that they must burn hotter than at least 3000 degrees.

The issue is that Nod, even up to the events of the Third Tiberium War, didn't adopt the Black Hand's Purifying Flame as their default flamethrower fuel for their mainline forces. Their flames are still yellow.

As you can imagine, this creates a bit of a paradox as zone armour was designed to be able to resist ion storm lightning strikes, as they're expected to go into Red and Yellow Zones! If we go by real-life physics by using examples of lightning bolts (which are instances of charged plasma), they can reach 20,000 degrees... per strike.

Hell, ion lightning may even be hotter than plasma weaponry: We just don't know. What we do know is that ion lightning destroyed the Kodiak in a single shot (Firestorm's introduction FMV).

Does this mean that even first generation zone armour types are pretty much immune to Nod flamethrowers, if they're at roughly 3,000 degrees, given they're designed to resist ion-charged lightning?

Are Scrin plasma weapons far below 20,000 degrees, so they're inferior to lightning bolts? Do they match it? What temperature reaches do the Purifying Flames push to for them to become black and not violet or something? Either way, it shows how tough and advanced the first generation sets of armour are because they're designed to brave ion storms.

Would more far more advanced and refined versions of Nod's plasma weapons used by the Scrin... which disabled a Mammoth Mark II in a single passing run (depending on how hot the Scrin's plasma weaponry can be per strike), be more or less effective?

But, back to flame weaponry used by Nod: This all indicates a logical dissonance that can only be resolved by either a) there's something more to Nod's flame weaponry that we know nothing about, which is likely due to tiberium being an influencing factor or b) the designers behind the games didn't do basic research or maintain world-building consistency in this aspect.

However, the games own intelligence/lore database for GDI says that Nod Flame Tanks are unable to penetrate the crew compartment of GDI's armoured vehicles, such as the Predator and Mammoth Tanks -- so, GDI armour technology/material by 2047 can withstand at least 3000 degrees of sustained fire (no pun intended).

What we do know is that by the time of the Fourth Tiberium War, however, the Nod Separatists (and later mainline Nod) modified their Third Tiberium War flame tanks to be able to burn/destroy GDI zone armour as they were, in their default state, unable to damage the latest generations of GDI zone armour. They were pretty much completely useless.

So, first generation zone trooper armour was designed to be top of the line and the forefront of armour technology (GDI's R+D focused heavily on them as they, along with things like sonic emitters, were key to their anti-tiberium agenda, which had become the focus of GDI by that point). Does that mean they have the same resistance armoured crew cabins on vehicles had, given GDI's metallurgy capability at the time?

Going by the Trail of Flame ability lore, it's also said that the fuel aboard the tanks is inert unless used by the tank itself, meaning that shooting the fuel canisters and hoping they'd explode is a fool's errand. So, that implies that each tank is a separate chemical, with each being inert until combined; that tiberium bullshittery is in play; that the fuels are somehow just one chemical mixture in both tanks that are also inert until used by the flame tank.

So, following these trails of thought? It means that zone armours, even the first generation, may literally keep the wearer safe and comfortable from flames that are at least 3000 degrees hot, and are designed to be resistant to lightning strikes that are at least 20,000 degrees hot.

The newer models took this a step further: The Nod Separatists had to push their flamethrowers to well past 3,000 degrees to just breach the new armours. What temperatures did they have to reach? Does this mean that prior flamethrower weaponry was, in fact, capable of breaching zone armour? Or that they had to do this because of GDI's increasing reliance on zone armours, like forcing a square into a round hole as a solution?

Nod's crude plasma weaponry attempts were capable of breaching GDI's top of the line metallurgy and armour in the Second Tiberium War, which resisted Obelisks' sustained firing.

The Scrin's plasma weaponry is like comparing Nod's to being crude muskets while theirs are like assault rifles from two hundred years ahead in our future.

So, unless Scrin plasma weaponry is capable of surpassing or is equivalent to lightning strikes, zone armour is resistant either way to varying degrees of success, whether they're of a lower temperature/energy state (e.g. between 3,000, meaning pretty much great protection if not immunity, and 20,000 which would be an issue after repeated strikes) or not.

As you can see, C&C lore has its problems, heh.
 
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Aaron Fox

Well-known member
If I remember right, the 'small laser' of the Elemental is something on the order of 100-200MJ depending on who you ask, which works with the 'would overpen an Abrams' remark.

That... is a lot of firepower but we never got a concrete answer on the output of the various lasers in the Tiberium timeline.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
If I remember right, the 'small laser' of the Elemental is something on the order of 100-200MJ depending on who you ask, which works with the 'would overpen an Abrams' remark.

That... is a lot of firepower but we never got a concrete answer on the output of the various lasers in the Tiberium timeline.
First generation Obelisks were capable of destroying light vehicles like Humvees in a single shot -- MBTs like the GDI Abrams, too.

Really, we can only form an estimation of each type of laser weapon's energy output based on the damage they can do, I guess?
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
First generation Obelisks were capable of destroying light vehicles like Humvees in a single shot -- MBTs like the GDI Abrams, too.

Really, we can only form an estimation of each type of laser weapon's energy output based on the damage they can do, I guess?
Well, that is from an SB 'Battletech Yields' thread a while back. It should also be noted that while the Obelisk of Light is a massive structure, BT had miniaturized it into a roughly man-portable weapon system (ala a crew weapon via Support Lasers) at the minimum. Which, if possible, means that the moment that a Zooper gets into the sights of an Elemental, the zooper is dead.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
Well, that is from an SB 'Battletech Yields' thread a while back. It should also be noted that while the Obelisk of Light is a massive structure, BT had miniaturized it into a roughly man-portable weapon system (ala a crew weapon via Support Lasers) at the minimum. Which, if possible, means that the moment that a Zooper gets into the sights of an Elemental, the zooper is dead.
The Brotherhood also miniaturized their laser technology (since the end of the First Tiberium War, they've had laser rifles and laser chainguns), but they're not as powerful as an Obelisk's laser capacitor.

Except for some Tiberium Alliances concept art though, it seems that Nod pretty much abandoned portable laser rifles afte rthe First Tiberium War and the like... which kinda makes no sense, given they've constantly improved upon the technology to the point where pretty much every vehicle but a few has them.

So, yeah. C&C suffers from pretty poor world-building, once you go deep.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
The Brotherhood also miniaturized their laser technology (since the end of the First Tiberium War, they've had laser rifles and laser chainguns), but they're not as powerful as an Obelisk's laser capacitor.

Except for some Tiberium Alliances concept art though, it seems that Nod pretty much abandoned portable laser rifles afte rthe First Tiberium War and the like... which kinda makes no sense, given they've constantly improved upon the technology to the point where pretty much every vehicle but a few has them.

So, yeah. C&C suffers from pretty poor world-building, once you go deep.
Eh, given that the laser rifle looks like it has a red tib-crystal attached to the end and the possibility that it uses a power source that even Nod considers too unstable...

... I wouldn't be surprised that the laser small arms went the way of the dodo due to that. At least, in a mass use capacity.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
Eh, given that the laser rifle looks like it has a red tib-crystal attached to the end and the possibility that it uses a power source that even Nod considers too unstable...

... I wouldn't be surprised that the laser small arms went the way of the dodo due to that. At least, in a mass use capacity.
Nah, it's not tiberium: It's a laser capacitor focusing crystal -- the same types used at the tips of Obelisks.

Red Tiberium, Cruentus, was slated to be in Tiberian Sun as explosive towers of red tiberium, which could be harvested after; however, it wasn't implemented despite remnants of it being in the games .ini files, so it's likely it's one of the many features that was cut from the game so it could be released.

Red Tiberium properly became known in Tiberian Twilight, but IIRC they were either mission objectives or special power-ups. That game was a train-wreck anyway.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
C&C metallurgy and technology is, frankly, ridiculously bullshit; because of tiberium and the A flight of three Banshees were capable of downing a Mammoth Mark II, however, indicating that GDI armour technology at the time was incapable of resisting plasma weaponry (or at least the Brotherhood's crude approximation of it): The Mammoth Mark II was also shown to be resisting, without any issue, the laser strikes of a second generation Obelisk of Light; the first generations were shown to be able to completely destroy light vehicles and main battle tanks in a single shot.

It's worth pointing out that the Tiberian Sun cutscene in question shows the Banshee plasma weapons downing the Mammoth Mk. II with no actual penetration (or even scorching) of the armor and prominent 'electric shorting' sound effects. which indicate an effect along the lines of Star Wars ion cannons, not actual burn-through.

Going by the Trail of Flame ability lore, it's also said that the fuel aboard the tanks is inert unless used by the tank itself, meaning that shooting the fuel canisters and hoping they'd explode is a fool's errand. So, that implies that each tank is a separate chemical, with each being inert until combined; that tiberium bullshittery is in play; that the fuels are somehow just one chemical mixture in both tanks that are also inert until used by the flame tank.

Could just be a low volatility, high flashpoint fuel like the JP-7 that the real life Blackbird uses; that stuff requires TEB injection to ignite.

Nod's crude plasma weaponry attempts were capable of breaching GDI's top of the line metallurgy and armour in the Second Tiberium War, which resisted Obelisks' sustained firing.

Again, if you take the cutscene at face value, it doesn't actually breach the Mammoth walker's armor, it disables it with some form of exotic EMP effect.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
It's worth pointing out that the Tiberian Sun cutscene in question shows the Banshee plasma weapons downing the Mammoth Mk. II with no actual penetration (or even scorching) of the armor and prominent 'electric shorting' sound effects. which indicate an effect along the lines of Star Wars ion cannons, not actual burn-through.



Could just be a low volatility, high flashpoint fuel like the JP-7 that the real life Blackbird uses; that stuff requires TEB injection to ignite.



Again, if you take the cutscene at face value, it doesn't actually breach the Mammoth walker's armor, it disables it with some form of exotic EMP effect.
That's true: It might be that GDI's TW2 armour and metallurgy is physically tough enough to withstand Nod's discount plasma weaponry, but they didn't shield it versus exotic electrical effects?
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
That's true: It might be that GDI's TW2 armour and metallurgy is physically tough enough to withstand Nod's discount plasma weaponry, but they didn't shield it versus exotic electrical effects?

If you go with cutscenes over gameplay, then absolutely yes.

(Both versions of the Mammoth Mk. II cutscene, of course, show capabilities that totally don't match the in-game performance.)
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
If you go with cutscenes over gameplay, then absolutely yes.

(Both versions of the Mammoth Mk. II cutscene, of course, show capabilities that totally don't match the in-game performance.)
I'd absolutely go with cut-scenes over gameplay, if possible.

The Mammoth Mark II had a kickass chaingun that they couldn't implement in-game due to engine limitations/unfinished areas of the engine, so it was sadly relegated to the FMVs. :(
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Hmm, if lightning isn't available do the Zone Troopers handle any other natural hazards in cutscenes or perhaps books that could be used for comparison? Forest fires, tornadoes, avalanches, things like that?
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
Hmm, if lightning isn't available do the Zone Troopers handle any other natural hazards in cutscenes or perhaps books that could be used for comparison? Forest fires, tornadoes, avalanches, things like that?
In lore they were the hazards of Red and Yellow Zones, but unfortunately no. :( C&C lore is surprisingly sparse in the minute details.

All we really have is the lore and in-game depictions of Red and Yellow Zones... and Red Zones are literally like the surface of a completely alien Death World now, with human ruins scattered about for decoration.

IIRC in the Tiberium Wars Novel (which was such a piece of shit, it was hilarious), they had to regularly scrap any military equipment that went into Red Zones due to their being irrecoverably contaminated by exposure -- a single breach in a regular infantry suit was a death sentence too, and one of the main character's squad mates, "Goldie", was shown to die a slow death at the hands of "Ti-Rock" poisoning after being wounded in action in Italy (ground zero for tiberium, basically).

Zone Troopers have to trudge through that hell regularly, while Zone Raiders are actively fighting (and reclaiming) contaminated land in Yellow Zones with sonic weaponry.

But, yeah. That's all we have to go on, sadly enough.

Edit: Additionally, a lot of the lore used for Tiberium Wars does exist, but only in EA's design documentation. Basically, the design process for C&C3 was such a fucking mess, and this stemmed all the way from when Westwood was still trying to produce a sequel to Tiberian Sun back in the very early 00's, that lore, designs, and world-building were passed down and edited throughout the various written and rewritten design documentations, like filters. At the end, it was a case of the developers expecting the players to know what they knew when they were writing stuff like the Intel Databases because of how much a convoluted mess it all was -- they ultimately couldn't tell what was public and what was internal, like an author knowing the details of a book they've written while also expecting the reader to know these things too, but they got the outline from the book from another three people so they don't know either.

Did you know the Blue Zones were Blue Zones because of huge, Aliens-style atmospheric processors? That they had sonic emitters down deep in the dirty/near the sewer levels to keep tiberium at bay?

That the Fanatics, the Nod Power Plant (which was actually a CABAL design), and the like were from Westwood's design documentation and designs? Same deal with the GDI Power Plant.

Yeah, no-one else did until old design documents were released and concept art, long since floating around, was matched up to it: These were the details the designers thought or expected we'd know because they knew.
 
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Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
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Osaul
In lore they were the hazards of Red and Yellow Zones, but unfortunately no. :( C&C lore is surprisingly sparse in the minute details.

All we really have is the lore and in-game depictions of Red and Yellow Zones... and Red Zones are literally like the surface of a completely alien Death World now, with human ruins scattered about for decoration.

IIRC in the Tiberium Wars Novel (which was such a piece of shit, it was hilarious), they had to regularly scrap any military equipment that went into Red Zones due to their being irrecoverably contaminated by exposure -- a single breach in a regular infantry suit was a death sentence too, and one of the main character's squad mates, "Goldie", was shown to die a slow death at the hands of "Ti-Rock" poisoning after being wounded in action in Italy (ground zero for tiberium, basically).

Zone Troopers have to trudge through that hell regularly, while Zone Raiders are actively fighting (and reclaiming) contaminated land in Yellow Zones with sonic weaponry.

But, yeah. That's all we have to go on, sadly enough.


Peptuck did it better with his story by far. Shame he never finished it. I HIGHLY recommend reading it. Peptuck is one hell of a story teller.

 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Hmm, how about nukes? BT has a direct kiloton-to-damage formula, are there any nukes in C&C that can be used for comparison?
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Hmm...wonder if we can compare that to the 'Mech Taser?

The problem is that the 'Mech Taser is a literal taser which has to actually pierce the target's armor with a harpoon. Also, since it's delivering a mundane electrical charge, it's only going to affect things with either pseudo-organic myomer "muscles" like a Battlemech or actual organic muscles.
 
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Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
Peptuck did it better with his story by far. Shame he never finished it. I HIGHLY recommend reading it. Peptuck is one hell of a story teller.

I never got around to reading this, but I've heard amazing things about it. The panic about the Black Hand from GDI, and the terror from Nod grunts on hearing goddamn Mammoth Tanks were rolling their way? Love it!
Hmm, how about nukes? BT has a direct kiloton-to-damage formula, are there any nukes in C&C that can be used for comparison?
The initial nukes in the C&C universe were pretty weak: The Soviet ones were basically tactical-grade fission nukes shoved on an overpowered ICBM -- you could nuke an enemy base and it'll still be up and running, once personnel were replaced and repairs were made. The Soviets also used them on advancing Allied troops in desperation, and on key Allied cities like London (which were foiled), but they didn't really stem the assaults on Moscow.

The Remaster updated the graphics a bit to make the mushroom cloud bigger, but they're still pretty weak when it comes to tonnage.

The nukes the Brotherhood got ahold of in Tiberian Dawn were a lot more dangerous and high-yield: They were likely fusion weapons. They stockpiled a good amount of these, and they were the city-killers you'd expect from hearing "nuclear" and "weapon" in the same sentence.

Except for at the last battle of Sarajevo, they weren't used all that much because Kane didn't want to basically cause a MAD scenario: However, after his apparent "death", Nod's splinter groups and commanders basically just go "fuck it" and went to town with the stockpiled nukes, like trying to destroy a peace conference and an entire city.

They also had smaller nukes, likely much like the Soviet ones, that they used on a tactical level, and targeting data was provided by Retribution beacons on-field.

After the First Tiberium War, Nod decided to weaponize tiberium instead -- that's why we see Cluster Missiles and Chemical Missiles being used (the latter of which had a souped up version which could terraform entire continents). However, they did still have nukes in some fashion, as that's what destroyed Vega's base (basically Kane couldn't deal with his idiocy any more). In the Nod ending, they also had mobile ICBM launchers which were presumably nuclear, too (they basically succeeded with this plan in a fashion seventeen years later when they destroyed the Philadelphia with a nuke).

The Third Tiberium War had Nod return to using nukes, and while powerful they seemed a lot more limited compared to the ones they had before -- possibly this means they were fission than fusion.

As things went pear-shaped however, Nod had to raid GDI's stockpile in Australia, and we don't know what GDI's yields or designs were. We do know that while GDI had them stockpiled from the old member nations, they weren't ever used or improved upon because, well, they had the motherfucking Ion Cannon. :D

Nod in the Fourth Tiberium War used nukes again, but they were enhanced with tiberium -- basically, tiberium is an OCP which could turn a firecracker into something capable of blowing up an entire city-block. So, the yield could have been even lower than the Soviet fission nukes, but with a small amount of liquid tiberium on-board? Yeah.

Again, it's frustrating because we never get any concrete stats or in-depth information. :(
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
I'd absolutely go with cut-scenes over gameplay, if possible.

The Mammoth Mark II had a kickass chaingun that they couldn't implement in-game due to engine limitations/unfinished areas of the engine, so it was sadly relegated to the FMVs. :(

The Mammoth Mk. 2's main railguns are also much faster-firing in the cutscenes than they are in game (for obvious balance reasons), and are visibly two double-barreled weapons with four shots on tap.
 

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