Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

[Navarro]

 

[King Arts]

Taking two sniper shots from hundreds of meters away in dense urban terrain doesn't seem particularly plausible regardless of the shooters affiliation.

And if it was then there is even less possible confirmation as to the identity of the shooter.

But then again some people just can't wait to wish plagues on entire groups of people so if not this it'd be something else used as an excuse.

What do you mean? Snipers making a shot from hundreds of meters is not implausable. It's the whole point of snipers. It being urban doesen't really make a shot easier or harder it being urban just means that if you are looking for a SPECEFIC target it would be harder, but it would also be easy to hide in many places.

Sniper is not the only thing that makes sense.
The most obvious explanation is a stray bullet.

When people shoot guns all over the place, the bullets do not magically disappear when they miss their intended target. They keep flying until they hit something.

They claimed it was "sniper bullet". but did not specify how they knew. They did not specify the caliber or any type of forensics done that determined that this bullet was definitely an israeli bullet shot from an israeli sniper rifle.

A stray bullet makes sense, I suppose. I guess we have to wait for more information. As for why I think the IDF did it, because that's what BBC reported. From what I know BBC are mainstream media and they also aren't biased to be anti Israel and pro Hamas like Al Jazera would be. I mean if I saw that they were biased then I would revise my position.

So..where were they shot?
What angle? Are there any buildings nearby that would allow fir a sniper, how did an IDF sniper gets into a position to shoot at a church?
What caliber?

Yes this.

Zach it's an urban warzone there are many places for a sniper to hide. Also again it's a warzone you can't hope for NCIS to come over and do a big investigation

So what if it is trigger happy?
We also know Hamas is willing to intentionally kill own civilians for tactical purposes, so it's a non-argument.

I'm sorry these two lines are contradictory. So what if they are trigger happy, and then the enemy is doing it? It's either one or the other, either the IDF is trigger happy and it's not a big deal if they kill civillians, or they aren't trigger happy but the other side is killing civillians

Them being Jews makes them look particularly bad even to Israel's own radicals.

Yes? I said that the fact that it was Jews who were killed gave it publicity, while if it was Arab Christians or other civillians there wouldn't be as much press.

Or you don't know all the possible things that make sense, i unlike you understand what Zach is hinting at.
Say, a couple kilometers away Hamas and IDF are having a gunfight and someone is firing a .50cal machinegun. Armor piercing bullets are sprayed in the general direction of the enemy, go through walls, bounce on obstacles, and continue wherever while they have velocity. It would be a freak accident for one such burst to catch 2 people, but theoretically it is possible, and a stray .50 can kill at a surprising distance. Without forensic analysis, it's also impossible to tell what kind of gun was used and what was the distance.

A 50 cal would cut the woman in half wouldn't it? Those are big guns, not regular rifles.

Also here is a video released by hamas where they advertise how they dug up their water infrastructure (which israel built for them) and converted it into rockets. A testament to their engineering prowess

Fucking terroist scum. Do they fucking get off on war and fighting(and losing) They just make the lives of random Palestinians harder when they keep fighting when it's better to give in and do diplomacy.

 

[Zachowon]

What do you mean? Snipers making a shot from hundreds of meters is not implausable. It's the whole point of snipers. It being urban doesen't really make a shot easier or harder it being urban just means that if you are looking for a SPECEFIC target it would be harder, but it would also be easy to hide in many places.


A stray bullet makes sense, I suppose. I guess we have to wait for more information. As for why I think the IDF did it, because that's what BBC reported. From what I know BBC are mainstream media and they also aren't biased to be anti Israel and pro Hamas like Al Jazera would be. I mean if I saw that they were biased then I would revise my position.


Zach it's an urban warzone there are many places for a sniper to hide. Also again it's a warzone you can't hope for NCIS to come over and do a big investigation

I'm sorry these two lines are contradictory. So what if they are trigger happy, and then the enemy is doing it? It's either one or the other, either the IDF is trigger happy and it's not a big deal if they kill civillians, or they aren't trigger happy but the other side is killing civillians

Yes? I said that the fact that it was Jews who were killed gave it publicity, while if it was Arab Christians or other civillians there wouldn't be as much press.


A 50 cal would cut the woman in half wouldn't it? Those are big guns, not regular rifles.


Fucking terroist scum. Do they fucking get off on war and fighting(and losing) They just make the lives of random Palestinians harder when they keep fighting when it's better to give in and do diplomacy.

Have you ever tried to take a long range shot in an urban environment that is also an active warzone, and woth the aspect that you can also EASILY tell someone in a church is a non target....

Because the landscape matters.
If we knew where the shot was from we could make an argument for if it truly was a sniper or not.

 

[King Arts]

Have you ever tried to take a long range shot in an urban environment that is also an active warzone, and woth the aspect that you can also EASILY tell someone in a church is a non target....

Because the landscape matters.
If we knew where the shot was from we could make an argument for if it truly was a sniper or not.

Why are you assuming the shot was from like a mile away? The shooter could have been 200 or 300 meters away high up in another building that overlooks the court yard and that's a clear shot if I've ever seen one.

 

[Husky_Khan]

If anyone is having trouble following the chain of discussion so far.

So them being shot by a sniper from far away hundreds of meters is the only thing that makes sense.

What do you mean? Snipers making a shot from hundreds of meters is not implausable. It's the whole point of snipers. It being urban doesen't really make a shot easier or harder it being urban just means that if you are looking for a SPECEFIC target it would be harder, but it would also be easy to hide in many places.

Have you ever tried to take a long range shot in an urban environment that is also an active warzone, and woth the aspect that you can also EASILY tell someone in a church is a non target....

Because the landscape matters.
If we knew where the shot was from we could make an argument for if it truly was a sniper or not.

Why are you assuming the shot was from like a mile away? The shooter could have been 200 or 300 meters away

Boom! Headshot on Zachowon!

 

[King Arts]

If anyone is having trouble following the chain of discussion so far.









Boom! Headshot on Zachowon!

I gave a scenario with 200 or 300 meters. How is that not hundreds? Heck I just googled it also and it said average shots are 300 to 600. I don't see why with a scope it would be hard to make a shot like that?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

2-300 meters is extremely hard to pull off in a typical urban environment. All those buildings and walls get in the way. That, I'm pretty sure, is what @Zachowon is addressing.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I gave a scenario with 200 or 300 meters. How is that not hundreds?

Oh I didn't post that for your benefit but so everyone else can understand you better.

Zachowon didn't even give a distance beyond "long range" and King Arts assumes he meant "like a mile" or 1600 meters away. Keeping in mind that King Arts previously said the only thing that makes sense is a shot from "hundreds of meters" twice but apparently this entire time he meant two or three "hundreds of meters" but certainly not "long range" as Zachowon stated because when you state "Long range" that means "like a mile" or 1600 meters away.

So them being shot by a sniper from far away hundreds of meters is the only thing that makes sense.

What do you mean? Snipers making a shot from hundreds of meters is not implausable. It's the whole point of snipers. It being urban doesen't really make a shot easier or harder it being urban just means that if you are looking for a SPECEFIC target it would be harder, but it would also be easy to hide in many places.

Have you ever tried to take a long range shot in an urban environment that is also an active warzone, and woth the aspect that you can also EASILY tell someone in a church is a non target....

Because the landscape matters.
If we knew where the shot was from we could make an argument for if it truly was a sniper or not.

Why are you assuming the shot was from like a mile away? The shooter could have been 200 or 300 meters away

So keep in mind when King Arts said "hundreds of meters" in this case, he always meant "two or three hundreds of meters" not a "long range" shot that Zachowon stated... which is "like 1600 meters."

 

[Zachowon]

Why are you assuming the shot was from like a mile away? The shooter could have been 200 or 300 meters away high up in another building that overlooks the court yard and that's a clear shot if I've ever seen one.

Are we sure they were shot in tje courtyard, and what buildings over look the church?
How about this, let's get a good satellite look at the area and let's see how easy those shots are

If anyone is having trouble following the chain of discussion so far.









Boom! Headshot on Zachowon!

I gave a scenario with 200 or 300 meters. How is that not hundreds? Heck I just googled it also and it said average shots are 300 to 600. I don't see why with a scope it would be hard to make a shot like that?

300 is what every soldier is trained at, 600 to 800 is normal for MG with 7.62
Most snipers do not want to be closer then 800

 

[King Arts]

2-300 meters is extremely hard to pull off in a typical urban environment. All those buildings and walls get in the way. That, I'm pretty sure, is what @Zachowon is addressing.

What? 2-300 meters is easy. That is what regular rifles are designed to shoot at, a sniper is designed to shoot at longer ranges I looked up effective ranges of the weapons used by both sides. Isreael uses the Tavor along with M4's I think? Hamas and other Palestinan insurgents would use AK's.

tavor x95 range - Google Search

max effective range of ak 47 - Google Search

Oh I didn't post that for your benefit but so everyone else can understand you better.

Zachowon didn't even give a distance beyond "long range" and King Arts assumes he meant "like a mile" or 1600 meters away. Keeping in mind that King Arts previously said the only thing that makes sense is a shot from "hundreds of meters" twice but apparently this entire time he meant two or three "hundreds of meters" but certainly not "long range" as Zachowon stated because when you state "Long range" that means "like a mile" or 1600 meters away.









So keep in mind when King Arts said "hundreds of meters" in this case, he always meant "two or three hundreds of meters" not a "long range" shot that Zachowon stated... which is "like 1600 meters."

Hundreds of meters could be anywhere between 100 to 999.

 

[King Arts]

Are we sure they were shot in tje courtyard, and what buildings over look the church?
How about this, let's get a good satellite look at the area and let's see how easy those shots are

Yes the BBC reported that the mother was shot first in the Church courtyard, then the daughter went to save her drag her away and the daughter was shot. That's all the information I was able to find.

As for ranges if you are in a city with many buildings at various elevations you can find MANY firing spots within 500 meters, or even 300 meters.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Hundreds of meters could be anywhere between 100 to 999.

Yes I know that. But the way you are using your words is retarded. That's the point of the posts. You repeatedly stated "hundreds of meters" and when Zachowon responds "long range" in response to your posts you state he's making an assumption of it being "like a mile" or 1600 meters while when your challenged, your suddenly like Oh I meant "two or three hundred meters" or a range between "100 to 999."

Which is fine, your posting just doesn't reflect that. So when Zachowon says "long range" it's a reasonable term to use and you shouldn't assume he said something wildly different from what you were saying.

So them being shot by a sniper from far away hundreds of meters is the only thing that makes sense.

What do you mean? Snipers making a shot from hundreds of meters is not implausable. It's the whole point of snipers. It being urban doesen't really make a shot easier or harder it being urban just means that if you are looking for a SPECEFIC target it would be harder, but it would also be easy to hide in many places.

Have you ever tried to take a long range shot in an urban environment that is also an active warzone, and woth the aspect that you can also EASILY tell someone in a church is a non target....

Because the landscape matters.
If we knew where the shot was from we could make an argument for if it truly was a sniper or not.

Why are you assuming the shot was from like a mile away? The shooter could have been 200 or 300 meters away

If that's still TLDR:

King Arts: shot by sniper hundreds of meters away!
King Arts: shot by sniper hundreds of meters away!
Zachowon: tried to take a long range shot...
King Arts: Why assume the shot 1600 meters away. Could've been 200-300 meters.
Me: Wait... whose assuming what now?

You established a pretty flimsy strawman with which to hypocritically criticize Zachowon for his "assumption."

The fact you need this explained to you a third time is unsurprising of course.

 

[Zachowon]

Yes the BBC reported that the mother was shot first in the Church courtyard, then the daughter went to save her drag her away and the daughter was shot. That's all the information I was able to find.

As for ranges if you are in a city with many buildings at various elevations you can find MANY firing spots within 500 meters, or even 300 meters.

Looking at the city and the courtyard. Very few spots where the courtyard is visible to get shot from.
An Isreali sniper would if had to bee in adjacent buildings to the courtyard to mke that shot.
And from what I can find that area at the time was held by Hamas...

 

[King Arts]

Yes I know that. But the way you are using your words is retarded. That's the point of the posts. You repeatedly stated "hundreds of meters" and when Zachowon responds "long range" in response to your posts you state he's making an assumption of it being "like a mile" or 1600 meters while when your challenged, your suddenly like Oh I meant "two or three hundred meters" or a range between "100 to 999."

Which is fine, your posting just doesn't reflect that. So when Zachowon says "long range" it's a reasonable term to use and you shouldn't assume he said something wildly different from what you were saying.









If that's still TLDR:

King Arts: shot by sniper hundreds of meters away!
King Arts: shot by sniper hundreds of meters away!
Zachowon: tried to take a long range shot...
King Arts: Why assume the shot 1600 meters away. Could've been 200-300 meters.
Me: Wait... whose assuming what now?

You established a pretty flimsy strawman with which to hypocritically criticize Zachowon for his "assumption."

The fact you need this explained to you a third time is unsurprising of course.

500 to 600 is closer to what I gave instead of 1600. Also I was not criticizing Zach.

@Zachowon if you think I was being harsh on you it was not my intent sometimes my posting style is abrasive so sorry if I offended you.

Looking at the city and the courtyard. Very few spots where the courtyard is visible to get shot from.
An Isreali sniper would if had to bee in adjacent buildings to the courtyard to mke that shot.
And from what I can find that area at the time was held by Hamas...

Again if the women were killed by Hamas then I'm sorry for besmirching the IDF. But if the IDF is responsible for the death of Christian women they do deserve codemnation

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Looking at the city and the courtyard. Very few spots where the courtyard is visible to get shot from.
An Isreali sniper would if had to bee in adjacent buildings to the courtyard to mke that shot.
And from what I can find that area at the time was held by Hamas...

@King Arts this is my point.

Yes, a rifle can be used for shots well over 300 meters.

The point here is that Line of Sight is HEAVILY restricted in urban environs and prevents many shots even over 100 meters.

 

[King Arts]

@King Arts this is my point.

Yes, a rifle can be used for shots well over 300 meters.

The point here is that Line of Sight is HEAVILY restricted in urban environs and prevents many shots even over 100 meters.

Are you talking about cover? There are things that block visibility EVERYWHERE. Also a courtyard isn't that secluded buildings accross the street could overlook the courtyard if they are big enough. Also IF it is a sniper(journalists might not know shit about guns) then there really isn't a justification since a sniper is supposed to be far away and take a shot only after knowing who they are killing, a regular riflemen could maybe make a mistake. But if its a sniper and you can't get a clear shot and you don't know what you are looking at, you don't shoot because your life isn't at risk at that moment like a regular soldier's would be.

 

[Zachowon]

500 to 600 is closer to what I gave instead of 1600. Also I was not criticizing Zach.

@Zachowon if you think I was being harsh on you it was not my intent sometimes my posting style is abrasive so sorry if I offended you.

Again if the women were killed by Hamas then I'm sorry for besmirching the IDF. But if the IDF is responsible for the death of Christian women they do deserve codemnation

Are you talking about cover? There are things that block visibility EVERYWHERE. Also a courtyard isn't that secluded buildings accross the street could overlook the courtyard if they are big enough. Also IF it is a sniper(journalists might not know shit about guns) then there really isn't a justification since a sniper is supposed to be far away and take a shot only after knowing who they are killing, a regular riflemen could maybe make a mistake. But if its a sniper and you can't get a clear shot and you don't know what you are looking at, you don't shoot because your life isn't at risk at that moment like a regular soldier's would be.

I recommend looking at the area om Google Earth 3d or Google maps and looking at the buildings around it.
They would literally have to be across the street

 

[mrttao]

What? 2-300 meters is easy. That is what regular rifles are designed to shoot at, a sniper is designed to shoot at longer ranges I looked up effective ranges of the weapons used by both sides. Isreael uses the Tavor along with M4's I think? Hamas and other Palestinan insurgents would use AK's.

I think you misunderstand. They are not talking about the difficulty of hitting a target at that distance.
They are talking about finding a clear line of sight to even see the target in the first place in an urban environment.
Snipers cannot see through walls.

 

[mrttao]

A stray bullet makes sense, I suppose. I guess we have to wait for more information. As for why I think the IDF did it, because that's what BBC reported. From what I know BBC are mainstream media and they also aren't biased to be anti Israel and pro Hamas like Al Jazera would be. I mean if I saw that they were biased then I would revise my position.

BBC is utter evil and as bad as al jazera.
It is funded by the british taxpayer against their wishes.
And is mostly made up of fanatic woke cultists whose goal is the genocide of white people.
Most of the time they are also very pro muslim.

Especially as UK gets islamatized.
BBC has been very much pro the muslim rape gangs that roam britain.

 

[Bigking321]

Yeah...

BBC is like the very definition of a biased source.