Books Heinlein Discussion Thread

I thought the Hasitim squad thing was due more to Turian Psychology where nothing less than forcing your enemy to complete surrender would work with them. They go door to door get any civilians that aren’t combatants out to safe zones so other forces can fight unimpeded. Given the chance of ambush and treachery it makes sense they are volunteer only. Also I don’t think there’s record of the Hasitim squads being used anywhere except in internal conflicts of the Hierarchy.

There’s no record of their use in the FCW( Relay 314) or any conflict in the games except the secessionist crisis on that planet. Which also had the Secessionist’s use a FTL engine as a Kinetic Kill Vehicle.
 
Scottty said:
One of the silly mistakes some people make with authors like Heinlein, is to assume that because the author describes a certain kind of society, he therefore actually wants or supports it.
Such people don't themselves make good writers, as they cannot write characters with any opinion different from their own.
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A lot of this is true. Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers a story about how a strong government, strong cultural traditions backed by a core of people that sacrifice for the greater good could work. Then you have a story about about a lawless land with limited resources where family clans are the main from of power. Then for a change of pace he wrote about an old super rich man finding freedom in world of free love and lack of material goods.

That is the main reason I like Heinlein. Each story is a look into a new world with different themes and values exposed.

He also managed to say a lot in his stories. To many authors feel the need to write a million word epic to tell a 200 page story. While world building and description is all well and good ever part of the story should help showcase the themes and plot. This means a page long look at what people are eating or a long shopping trip is not needed unless it is vital for the continuing plot.
 
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Silverbullet said:
I thought the Hasitim squad thing was due more to Turian Psychology where nothing less than forcing your enemy to complete surrender would work with them. They go door to door get any civilians that aren’t combatants out to safe zones so other forces can fight unimpeded. Given the chance of ambush and treachery it makes sense they are volunteer only. Also I don’t think there’s record of the Hasitim squads being used anywhere except in internal conflicts of the Hierarchy.

There’s no record of their use in the FCW( Relay 314) or any conflict in the games except the secessionist crisis on that planet. Which also had the Secessionist’s use a FTL engine as a Kinetic Kill Vehicle.
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I just don't feel like "Turian Psychology" should be an excuse for the Hasitim squads. Our laws have war have accommodated fighting with vicious warrior peoples in the past.
 
Our laws, human laws have yes. Again the Turians are aliens who were designed to have different values for the purpose of Dissonance. In the interest of creating moral conflict for us the players. Trying to judge a fictional race designed at base to be both the best and worst of the phrase "Army with a Nation" seems odd to me. It's like we're trying to show each race is distinct yet also has enough in common to build the metropolitan society the Citadel is. Here's the quote from the Wiki.

Turian society is highly regimented and very organized, and the species is known for its strict discipline and work ethic. Turians are willing to do what needs to be done, and they always follow through. They are not easily spurred to violence, but when conflict is inevitable, they only understand a concept of "total war." They do not believe in skirmishes or small-scale battles; they use massive fleets and numbers to defeat an adversary so completely that they remove any threat of having to fight the same opponent more than once. They do not exterminate their enemy, but so completely devastate their military that the enemy has no choice but to become a colony of the turians. It is theorized that another conflict between the rapidly advancing humans and the turians could annihilate a large portion of known space.

Turian wars are often marked by citizen resistance. Most turian families keep small arms in their homes and take basic training courses that include instruction on how to create simple anti-vehicle explosive devices. To suppress citizen militias, the Turian Hierarchy makes use of "execution squads" known as hastatim. First, "safe camps" are established in cities to incentivize surrender. Next, hastatim soldiers are deployed door-to-door; anyone who refuses to be transported to a safe camp or demonstrates hostile intent will be shot. Hastatim burial units then retrieve and cremate the bodies. This approach is necessary because without the safe camps, no turian would ever surrender, and without the hastatim, it would take years for a population to be pacified.
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One of the things that may explain my mindset is a bit from the Ender's Game books with the pygmy aliens. I read these in Middle School two decades ago so don't expect perfect recall. It was when the one of the scientists and her daughter were discussing how to change the pygmy aliens females so the part where they become tress that their children then eat their way out of becomes unnecessary. On the surface and by most standards a worthy goal, but Ender points out to them that they're basically looking to change a species and culture around to fit their views and norms. It was one of the things as child that gave me the view that some things are just different and you have to accept them. Of course then there are situations like that one in India where a British official built gallows and dared the locals to continue their custom of burning widows. It's a messy and complicated area ripe for moral ambiguity and conflict. Which is the point.
 
Heh, reminds me of my ANTIFA wannabe classmate whom during a religious class where our professor told about his experiences in Saudi Arabia where he and many others he worked with, was friends and/or associates with had to hide their non-Muslim symbols

My classmate smugly told me of how “See it’s their culture!” to justify their behavior

This guy I should note, keeps going on about how the Capitalism is bad and Communism is good. I think he only really applies this sort of behavior to our country and Western ones or First World ones, problems done by Muslim countries are okay or something
 
Just as a note, Luna wasn't exactly a prison colony at the time of the revolt, though there had been elements of a prison colony in the past. But it was also an absolutely marvelous example of a society based on liberty organising itself, including the tension between the ideologues and the practical people willing to make concessions to get the system working.
 
Captain-General said:
Just as a note, Luna wasn't exactly a prison colony at the time of the revolt, though there had been elements of a prison colony in the past. But it was also an absolutely marvelous example of a society based on liberty organising itself, including the tension between the ideologues and the practical people willing to make concessions to get the system working.
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That is true. Really the prison part was that the Warden controlled the only way off the moon. But most of the population seemed to be at least second generation.

Earth's position at the start of the book was as long as the grain shipments kept coming and they had a place to ship undesirables Earth did not really care what happened there.

But it was the fact that you had ever increasing quotas, and a lot of people that never committed a crime wanting self rule along with the current grain quota system destroying the long term viability of the Luna Colony that brought about the Luna revolution.

But it was the disruption of the grain shipments and wanting supplies back that caused the Earth to try and retake the Luna Colony by force.. Earth could have ignored the change in leadship if Doc installed himself as the Glorious Leader of the Free People's Republic Luna but managed to keep the grain quotas Earth would have sent a letter complaining but little else.
 
Navarro said:
Yeah. Verhoeven tries to show us a totalitarian society, but forgets to put in actual totalitarian substance - no regimentation of society as a whole, no secret police, no worship of the "Glorious Leader" (the closest the Federation has to such resigns in public disgrace halfway through the film). It's all just skin-deep. His claim that the society of the Federation is "only fucking good for killing bugs" means nothing when he shows it as prosperous, peaceful, and relatively free - more America circa 1941 than Nazi Germany circa 1939.
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To go back to the resignation thing - it just shows furthermore how little Verhoeven understands of totalitarianism. People who epically fail in totalitarian societies don't resign - they get executed, or compelled to commit suicide, or just "disappear". Neither do totalitarian dictators (if the guy in question is the guy in charge of the Federation, and not just its military) resign when they fail epically.
 
Navarro said:
To go back to the resignation thing - it just shows furthermore how little Verhoeven understands of totalitarianism. People who epically fail in totalitarian societies don't resign - they get executed, or compelled to commit suicide, or just "disappear". Neither do totalitarian dictators (if the guy in question is the guy in charge of the Federation, and not just its military) resign when they fail epically.
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In fact, come to think of it, Verhoeven would have been better off just trying to criticize American military interventionism. At least his work would have been coherent as a satire if he had done that, instead of trying to make his work about something he obviously doesn't understand.
 
That's just how the aristocracy saw themselves. The reference to macaroni in the song is to a particularly excessive fashion style, so the song is making fun of colonists basically thinking they are above their station by very poorly trying to imitate the aristocratic styles of Europe.
 
Lanmandragon said:
No clue but it hasn't changed. Alot of Euros stay arguing dumb crap like "well this works in Europe" or "why can't you do this thing we do". While I'm just sitting here saying. "The whole damn point of America is not being you".
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If anything, the european nations should be more like the USA in some aspects.
 
Argent said:
That is true. Really the prison part was that the Warden controlled the only way off the moon. But most of the population seemed to be at least second generation.

Earth's position at the start of the book was as long as the grain shipments kept coming and they had a place to ship undesirables Earth did not really care what happened there.

But it was the fact that you had ever increasing quotas, and a lot of people that never committed a crime wanting self rule along with the current grain quota system destroying the long term viability of the Luna Colony that brought about the Luna revolution.

But it was the disruption of the grain shipments and wanting supplies back that caused the Earth to try and retake the Luna Colony by force.. Earth could have ignored the change in leadship if Doc installed himself as the Glorious Leader of the Free People's Republic Luna but managed to keep the grain quotas Earth would have sent a letter complaining but little else.
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Exactly, what really mattered to Earth was the grain quotas. It was the threat to the extractive market, and the threat of free market negotiations and goals-setting on Luna, which really drove the effort to suppress the rebellion.
 
One thing I always find interesting in older Sci-Fi works is the look at over population. A few of Heinlein works and other authors like Ann McCaffrey talk about it and try to show the effects.

Between that rasing crime crime and and general state of cities post World War II and you can see a lot of similar themes throughout all his books and authors authors of a similar time period.

While the predictions proved to be wrong and the Earth did not develop into gaint cities where people could visit their square mile of parkland it does show how the current doomsayers can have a wide influence on entire genre. You can see the same thing today with Sci-Fi showing 5he effect of global warming according to the worst predictions.
 
Argent said:
One thing I always find interesting in older Sci-Fi works is the look at over population. A few of Heinlein works and other authors like Ann McCaffrey talk about it and try to show the effects.

Between that rasing crime crime and and general state of cities post World War II and you can see a lot of similar themes throughout all his books and authors authors of a similar time period.

While the predictions proved to be wrong and the Earth did not develop into gaint cities where people could visit their square mile of parkland it does show how the current doomsayers can have a wide influence on entire genre. You can see the same thing today with Sci-Fi showing 5he effect of global warming according to the worst predictions.
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There was a lot of crossover there, like the famous (infamous?) novel Stand on Zanzibar. Indeed, originally, unlike in the modern day where it is seen as a work of white supremacy, The Camp of the Saints was seen as focused entirely on over-population as a world problem when it was first released (of course, its savage depiction of Indian people merits considerable condemnation). I remember McCaffrey's work as well, in which Earth was basically ruled by a fascist blood and soil regime which condemned genetic engineering, which was what led to people settling on Pern (even though they ironically, or really, realistically I should say, carried many of the same views with them).
 
Captain-General said:
There was a lot of crossover there, like the famous (infamous?) novel Stand on Zanzibar. Indeed, originally, unlike in the modern day where it is seen as a work of white supremacy, The Camp of the Saints was seen as focused entirely on over-population as a world problem when it was first released (of course, its savage depiction of Indian people merits considerable condemnation). I remember McCaffrey's work as well, in which Earth was basically ruled by a fascist blood and soil regime which condemned genetic engineering, which was what led to people settling on Pern (even though they ironically, or really, realistically I should say, carried many of the same views with them).
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Not to mention that you can work the Pern books into the same universe as Talent books. While she said that Pern was separate it really does fit the back story and generally theme of her other serris in the Federated Planets.



I also have to wonder how the public would react that instead of Starship Trooper bening the most famous Heinlein book if See No Evil was better known instead. You have a lot of more left leaning view points expoused in that book including some that would mesh with the current push of transgenderism into the mainstream.
 
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