CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Aren’t you required to work in a Communist society? Even a government job?
Books Heinlein Discussion Thread
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
One of the silly mistakes some people make with authors like Heinlein, is to assume that because the author describes a certain kind of society, he therefore actually wants or supports it.
Such people don't themselves make good writers, as they cannot write characters with any opinion different from their own.
While Heinlein never actually sets forth what he himself wanted, some things do clearly come through: a strong distrust of big organizations, especially government and military.
One of my favorite parts is in Between Planets, where someone in a pub is explaining why the government will not impose a Draft.
Most of the opinions seemed to favor a draft, nor could Don argue against it;
it seemed reasonable to him even though he would be caught in it. One quiet
little man heard the others out, then cleared his throat. "There will be no
draft," he announced.
The last speaker, a co-pilot still wearing the triple globe on his collar,
answered, "Huh? What do you know about it, Shorty?"
"Quite a bit. Let me introduce myself-Senator Ollendorf of CuiCui Province. In
the first place we don't need a draft; the nature of our dispute with the
Federation is not such as to employ a large army. Secondly, our people are not
of the temperament to put up with it. By the drastic process of selective
immigration we have here on Venus a nation of hardy individualists almost
anarchists. They don't take to forced service. Thirdly, the taxpayers will not
support a mass army; we have more volunteers now than we can find money to pay
for. Lastly, my colleagues and I are going to vote it down about three to
one."
"Shorty," complained the co-pilot, "why did you bother with the first three
reasons?"
"Just practicing the speech I mean to make tomorrow," apologized the Senator.
"Now, sir, since you are so strong for the draft, pray tell why you haven't
joined the High Guard? You are obviously qualified."
"Well, I'll tell you, just like you told me. First or firstly, I'm not a
colonial, so it's not my war. Secondly, this is my first vacation since the
time they grounded the Comet-class ships. And thirdly, I joined up yesterday
and I'm drinking up my bounty money before reporting in. Does that satisfy
you?"
"Completely, sir! May I buy you a drink?"
And then the next day, the government passes a Draft Act.
Such people don't themselves make good writers, as they cannot write characters with any opinion different from their own.
While Heinlein never actually sets forth what he himself wanted, some things do clearly come through: a strong distrust of big organizations, especially government and military.
One of my favorite parts is in Between Planets, where someone in a pub is explaining why the government will not impose a Draft.
Most of the opinions seemed to favor a draft, nor could Don argue against it;
it seemed reasonable to him even though he would be caught in it. One quiet
little man heard the others out, then cleared his throat. "There will be no
draft," he announced.
The last speaker, a co-pilot still wearing the triple globe on his collar,
answered, "Huh? What do you know about it, Shorty?"
"Quite a bit. Let me introduce myself-Senator Ollendorf of CuiCui Province. In
the first place we don't need a draft; the nature of our dispute with the
Federation is not such as to employ a large army. Secondly, our people are not
of the temperament to put up with it. By the drastic process of selective
immigration we have here on Venus a nation of hardy individualists almost
anarchists. They don't take to forced service. Thirdly, the taxpayers will not
support a mass army; we have more volunteers now than we can find money to pay
for. Lastly, my colleagues and I are going to vote it down about three to
one."
"Shorty," complained the co-pilot, "why did you bother with the first three
reasons?"
"Just practicing the speech I mean to make tomorrow," apologized the Senator.
"Now, sir, since you are so strong for the draft, pray tell why you haven't
joined the High Guard? You are obviously qualified."
"Well, I'll tell you, just like you told me. First or firstly, I'm not a
colonial, so it's not my war. Secondly, this is my first vacation since the
time they grounded the Comet-class ships. And thirdly, I joined up yesterday
and I'm drinking up my bounty money before reporting in. Does that satisfy
you?"
"Completely, sir! May I buy you a drink?"
And then the next day, the government passes a Draft Act.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
There’s an addiction to power, even if it’s never used to feel powerful
Plus, governments, even good ones, can have a sort of feeling or obsession with “responsibility”
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
So how does that compare to Japanese expose of their trauma?
More from the same book...
"Why do you figure they won't attack?" Don asked. "Seems to me we're sitting
ducks here."
"Sure we are. One bomb and they blow this mudhole out of the swamp. Same for
Buchanan. Same for CuiCui Town. What good does that do them?"
"I don't know, but I don't relish being A-bombed."
"You won't be! Use your head. They knock out a few shopkeepers and a lot of
politicians-and they don't touch the back country. Venus Republic is as strong
as ever-because those three spots are the only targets fit to bomb on this
whole fogbound world. Then what happens?"
"It's your story; you tell me."
"A dose of reprisal, that's what-with all those bombs Commodore Higgins
snagged out of Circum-Terra. We've got some of their fastest ships and we'd
have the juiciest targets in history to shoot at. Everything from Detroit to
Bolivarsteel mills, power plants, factories. They won't risk pulling our nose
when they know we're all set to kick them in the belly. Let's be logical!" The
sergeant set down his cup and looked around triumphantly.
A quiet man at the end of the counter had been listening. Now he said softly,
"Yes-but how do you know that the strong men in the Federation will use
logic?"
The sergeant looked surprised. "Huh? Oh, come off it! The war's over, I tell
you. We ought to go home. I've got forty acres of the best rice paddies on the
planet; somebody's got to get the crop in. Instead I'm sitting around here,
playing space raid drill. The government ought to do something."
later...
That night the Federation attacked.
The attack should not have happened, of course. The rice farmer sergeant had
been perfectly right; the Federation could not afford to risk its own great
cities to punish the villagers of Venus. He was right-from his viewpoint.
A rice farmer has one logic, men who live by and for power have another and
entirely different logic. Their lives are built on tenuous assumptions,
fragile as reputation; they cannot afford to ignore a challenge to their
power-the Federation could not afford not to punish the insolent colonists.
Navarro
Well-known member
Yeah. Verhoeven tries to show us a totalitarian society, but forgets to put in actual totalitarian substance - no regimentation of society as a whole, no secret police, no worship of the "Glorious Leader" (the closest the Federation has to such resigns in public disgrace halfway through the film). It's all just skin-deep. His claim that the society of the Federation is "only fucking good for killing bugs" means nothing when he shows it as prosperous, peaceful, and relatively free - more America circa 1941 than Nazi Germany circa 1939.
Some defenders of the movie even try to argue that the whole film is just an in-universe propaganda piece, but even this argument falls apart, because in-universe propaganda and "reality" is clearly delineated in the film itself.
In the end Verhoeven can't criticise fascism, because he has no clue what fascism is.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Is that because of his childhood to not see everything when his country was occupied?
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Not even TvTropes looks to really know whats so fascistic about the Federation and considers killing-the-bugs evil or just plain xenophobic
Navarro
Well-known member
Because he was traumatised by Americans bombing a German V2 base near his house during the liberation of the Netherlands, and this later combined with a degree of resentment over American cultural influence in Europe. In fact, during the commentaries of the SST movie he says that American cultural dominance over Europe makes them just as bad as the Nazis, or something to that effect.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
What's bad about cultural victories?
Navarro
Well-known member
It makes him salty.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
I'm reminded of French opposition to coca cola.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Any chance he hates Rock&Roll and American Action Movies being popular? Sounds like some “refined” upper class douchebag
I guess he also wanted no one to actually fight or be in conflict with the Soviets and let them steamroll everybody else
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
I must admit there's a human element of being resistant to change so new foreign elements coming to his neighborhood would make him suspicious.
Navarro
Well-known member
Euros have been sneering at America as unsophisticated and stupid since before Independence.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think it's important to always remember that Verhoeven clearly intended to mock the source material. Viewed in the context of being an action comedy is the only way the SST movie makes any kind of sense. Heinlein in the original material was just envisioning a society--a warrior democracy--which has existed many times in history: Sparta, the early Swiss Cantons, indeed the Cossacks we are inspired by.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I think I’ve seen Halo and Mass Effect and Warhammer fics that involve combining that with “Humanity Fuck Yeah!!!”
Speaking of Mass Effect, does this mean Verhoeben would think the Turians or even the Krogans to be fascists?
D
Deleted member
Guest
The Turians are fascists. They just get a pass in popular culture because they're aliens.