How do American Christians justify the American revolution?

King Arts

Well-known member
This thread is made because I was reading through the Bible and through history and I had this thought and wanted to make a discussion thread to talk with others about it. So the Bible does tell Christian’s to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s when Jesus is asked about the Roman’s taxing the Jews. Also Paul tells Christian’s to obey the earthly authorities as god put them there and it’s a sin to disobey them.

Now later church fathers have said there are situations where rebellions are justified but those are only allowed if the government threatens the faith basically. Now as far as I know the British were not oppressing Protestant groups, so what justification do American Christians have for the American revolution or even the south’s revolution in the civil war?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
As you say, the rule is to obey the earthly authorities unless and until they give orders to disobey God. So there is no need to justify things, the US is the current secular authority as allowed/placed by God so they are to be obeyed unless they start actively ordering disobedience to God.

As far as asking if the revolution itself was justified, most of the groups that came to the pre-US did so to escape religious persecution so they may have justified it that way. As far as justifying the war directly, no, the Biblical precedent would be to reject rebellion over taxes on tea and quartering soldiers, those are not offenses to theology. The precedent would also be to be obedient to the new government as soon as the war was over, however.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
As you say, the rule is to obey the earthly authorities unless and until they give orders to disobey God. So there is no need to justify things, the US is the current secular authority as allowed/placed by God so they are to be obeyed unless they start actively ordering disobedience to God.

As far as asking if the revolution itself was justified, most of the groups that came to the pre-US did so to escape religious persecution so they may have justified it that way. As far as justifying the war directly, no, the Biblical precedent would be to reject rebellion over taxes on tea and quartering soldiers, those are not offenses to theology. The precedent would also be to be obedient to the new government as soon as the war was over, however.
I understand that Christians must obey the new secular authority. But many evangelicals and protestants seem to treat the founding fathers and minutemen and all those soldiers as heroes, when actually the soldiers in the Continental army that died, ended up dying in sin. That's not a good status to have dying in sin.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
By the time of the American Revolution, the foundations of the social and legal tapestry of the colonies and still well-remembered Wars of Religion had led to almost everyone in power quite strongly rejecting theological minutia like this as a basis for government decisions, and the preceding norm was outright inversion of this due to reliance on constructions like the "Divine Right of Kings" that placed legitimacy of rule in the hands of the Church.

Magna Carta and the Royalist/Parliamentarian friction were far more important to the reasoning at play, amusingly much driven by misconceptions in both cases owing to the history of lower-class uprisings and the rising middle class both having little to do with either's minutia or the theological counterpart you've placed the focus on. The extensive increase in taxes and foisting the upkeep of troops directly upon locals were at drastic odds with what the colonists expected as "fellow Englishmen" running a quite direct offshoot of England in particular, while on the part of Parliament they were expecting said colonials to pay their part for the Seven Years War given the "French and Indian War" front.

In the colonies, the Parliamentarian representative ideal took primacy over the premise of Royal assent to govern, which itself was tied to the aforementioned inversion of your cited verse, because quite a few of the colonies were founded to be rid of people who disagreed with the Crown, and later waves had the same underlying selection pressure of "People Who Didn't Fit Well Back In England".

While there were certainly non-English European settlers and would-be theocrats, they weren't particularly relevant to this secession movement based on popular consent to rule in the face of being squeezed to balance the budget after one of the first conflicts that could be considered "global".
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
The American Revolution didn't start as Revolution, it started as a civil protest.

Fundamentally, the Revolution started as a protest over taxation without representation, which many of the protestors believed to be illegal - essentially, the complaint was that the government was illegally treating them as second class citizens because they were far away.

The vast majority of the 'Revolutionaries' were hoping that the British government would relent at some point and agree to allow colonial representation in Parliament or the removal of the stamp taxes, and argued that the taxes the King had placed upon the colonies without any representation was fundamentally illegal.

If the British government had relented and given the states a few seats in Parliament (or removed the taxes, but that's unlikely), we'd probably be living in a vastly different world right now. Unrecognizably different, and one likely a lot more British overall.

The Founding Fathers only signed the Declaration of Independence itself after King George III sent foreign mercs (Hessians) to attack the colonists. Needless to say, if your own government is sending foreign mercs to kill you, I think considering yourself a foreign nation to the government is fairly reasonable.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
All things ultimately belong to God in an orthodox (small-o, as in, not just Eastern Orthodox but pretty much every recognizably Christian denomination post-Council of Nicaea) Christian worldview: indeed God put the earthly authorities where they are, which is why Caesar's position and very life is most certainly counted among His possessions. Furthermore, the concept of inalienable God-given natural rights was already established starting way back with Aquinas in the Middle Ages (natural law) and further refined in the Reformation & Enlightenment eras by thinkers like John Lilburne (to whom both King Charles and Cromwell were equally vile tyrants) and (for a more truly 'American' thinker in this vein) George Mason.

Caesar cannot override God's natural law, because of course God (being the creator and only true king of the world) is infinitely greater than Caesar. So what's to be done if he tries to commit such a crime? Well, as has been articulated by these thinkers (and actually was done in cases like the ECW), it is only just & right for good Christians to oppose him. The view of anti-establishment, small-l-liberal Christians as articulated by people like the above or John Milton of Paradise Lost fame was that the highest (if not only) liberty is to be free from all earthly vices and thus being a self-regulating, virtuous person capable of following God's will entirely of one's own volition; it was explicitly NOT liberty in the way that modern hedonistic libertines define it (freedom to do whatever you want, even if it destroys yourself and/or others), and in fact Milton up there goes to some length to explain why such an attitude actually makes for natural slaves who are spiritually dead & content to let Caesar do all their thinking in exchange for being free to indulge in their own vices. If Caesar gets in your way of drawing closer to God, then Caesar and all his works must go; and where Caesar falls, the true Church arises in triumph.

Let's also not forget that the Hanoverians who ruled Britain then (and William of Orange before them) didn't exactly have an uncontested claim to the British throne. Jacobites loyal to the fallen House of Stuart, who were firmly of the opinion that these guys were illegitimate usurpers and that Parliament had in no uncertain terms committed treason by overthrowing their rightful & duly crowned/anointed king James II; inviting in said foreign monarchs; and then rewriting history to make themselves look like the good guys, had risen in armed rebellion on Britain itself as late as 30 years before the outbreak of the American Revolution. Some Jacobites, like Hugh Mercer (a distant matrilineal ancestor of Patton's), moved to the colonies after their defeat at home and joined up with the Americans once the ARW got going. Enlightenment ideals of liberty aside, to people like these Jacobite exiles, it's their Christian duty to oppose an unlawful and oppressive usurper installed by the powers of this fallen world, even if it may no longer be possible to restore the rightful royal house (because by the 1770s the Stuarts were on the verge of extinction).

A similar attitude, but distinct and applied to whole societies instead of dynasties, can also be seen expressed in the thoughts of Jefferson and other Anglo-Saxon-philes. Basically in their view of history, the Anglo-Saxons enjoyed their God-given liberties until the Normans rolled in, took a huge dump on their heads and imposed overbearing tyranny alien to their natural mode of governance. The Americans are thus justified in seeking to break free from the system imposed upon their ancestors by the Normans and claw those unjustly-deprived liberties back from the hands of their oppressors. (Ironically, though Jefferson was a Southerner, by the 1860s his fellow Southerners rejected this view: they decided that LARPing as the badass, 'natural overlord' Normans and branding the Yankees as filthy Anglo-Saxon mudsills was the way to go.)
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Currently - probably via the Shining City on a Hill gibberish.
After all, according to its own creation myth the USA was founded by religious zealots that would have been yeeted out of Britain, if not outright executed.

Back then - well, much of John Locke and Thomas Paine's philosophical ideas were driven by a Judeo-Christian worldview and can probably be seen as outgrowths of Protestantism.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
I don't justify the American Revolution. The more I've read about it, the more it seems like it's a bunch of rich merchants seeing an opportunity to make more money. You don't hear about the average farmer or shoemaker being oppressed. In fact, what I did see are stories about the Founding Fathers making gross exaggerations and slander (the British contract an Indian tribe, the Indians kill and scalp an American colonist when that was not intended, the Founders jump on that and distribute a story far and wide about how "the British are siccing savages upon their own people!"). I've also heard about how the Revolutionary leaders went around forcing people to sign a pledge of loyalty under the threat of violence (I remember reading about one man who refused and his house was burned. He then joined the Loyalists), and even confiscated people's goods and pressed people into service.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
I don't justify the American Revolution. The more I've read about it, the more it seems like it's a bunch of rich merchants seeing an opportunity to make more money. You don't hear about the average farmer or shoemaker being oppressed. In fact, what I did see are stories about the Founding Fathers making gross exaggerations and slander (the British contract an Indian tribe, the Indians kill and scalp an American colonist when that was not intended, the Founders jump on that and distribute a story far and wide about how "the British are siccing savages upon their own people!"). I've also heard about how the Revolutionary leaders went around forcing people to sign a pledge of loyalty under the threat of violence (I remember reading about one man who refused and his house was burned. He then joined the Loyalists), and even confiscated people's goods and pressed people into service.
Yeah, no, wrong, it was most definitely justified, as explained in 1775: A Good Year for Revolution the British were fucking with the Americans in all sorts of ways, from limiting their growth and representation, to forcing them to buy low quality British products, to trying to ban certain industries developing in the colonies, and when developed, outright trying to destroy them, like pig iron production, to mundane shit like not letting you remove some trees from your land because they were "the King's" and might have been useful in ship construction.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
For the TL:DR version, England and Parliament were in violation of their own laws and the already existing charters that governed the American Colonies. As such, Rebellion against their rule could not be considered sinful as while even though Christians have been called to follow lawful authority, Parliament was acting unlawfully, had multiple egregious violations of both Natural Law and British Common Law against the colonies, and had rebuffed multiple attempts by the colonies to reconcile and correct their actions. As such, the colonies were left with few other recourses but complete submission to illegal government or rebellion.

Or in detail... reposting this for third time:

---------------------------
OK... so...

I've been sitting this out, but I feel that there appears to be a hyper narrow focus on the action of the mid 1770s, ignoring the decade of political back and forth of the prior decade between Parliament and the American Colonies.

Firstly, as has been noted, everything does trace back to the aftermath of the French and Indian War (Seven Years War for the more boring British name). The first major issue that began causing problems was the reinforcement of the British Navigation Acts in 1763. These acts inherently set the groundwork for the issues that would later unfold, in that it greatly restricted who the colonies could trade with and also required that the colonies had to import THROUGH England. These were mercantilist policies that inherently structured trade in such a way as to benefit England at the expense of the colonies.

After this you had a series of taxes that were placed and enforced on the colonies. Most of these were reasonable on their face, though they did directly harm the economy of the colonies in that they raised the cost of certain businesses. But it wasn't until 1765 and the Stamp Act that we get into some seriously overzealous taxes that were not merely designed to raise revenue but hinder the growth of the colonies in ways the British disliked. For example, the Stamp Act reserved its highest costs, £10, for attorney licenses (which, you must understand, is a ridiculously high price when you had many common jobs paying less than a £ a day), which served to hinder the growth of a native professional class in the colonies. Further, pretty much EVERYTHING paper was taxed, so this added a cost to the lives of everyday people in their daily business that was a constant reminder of Parliament's taxing them without representation or consent.

Also in 1765, well before any real colonial rebellious sentiment even had gotten started, Parliament also passed the Quartering Acts, which allowed the British military to quarter their soldiers pretty much anywhere they wanted while forcing the costs of such quartering onto the local governments, none of whom wanted those troops stationed in the colonies with the end of the war. Basically, with this law Parliament said the colonies not only had to house the soldiers stationed there "for reasons" and that they would have to pay for it. This caused further tension between the colonies and Parliament for no real benefit to ANYONE involved.

In response to these the colonies began to take purely political actions to protest. The Colony of Virginia, previously long loyal to the crown, met and passed the Virginia Resolves, which laid out Virginia's case that direct taxation upon them violated their rights as Englishmen:
Resolved, that the first adventurers and settlers of His Majesty's colony and dominion of Virginia brought with them and transmitted to their posterity, and all other His Majesty's subjects since inhabiting in this His Majesty's said colony, all the liberties, privileges, franchises, and immunities that have at any time been held, enjoyed, and possessed by the people of Great Britain.

Resolved, that by two royal charters, granted by King James I, the colonists aforesaid are declared entitled to all liberties, privileges, and immunities of denizens and natural subjects to all intents and purposes as if they had been abiding and born within the Realm of England.

Note that these assertions are true. The first Royal Charter of Virginia, issued in 1606 contained the following clause:
Virginia Charter of 1606 said:
Also we do, for Us, our Heirs, and Successors, DECLARE, by these Presents, that all and every the Persons being our Subjects, which shall dwell and inhabit within every or any of the said several Colonies and Plantations, and every of their children, which shall happen to be born within any of the Limits and Precincts of the said several Colonies and Plantations, shall HAVE and enjoy all Liberties, Franchises, and Immunities, within any of our other Dominions, to all Intents and Purposes, as if they had been abiding and born, within this our Realm of England, or any other of our said Dominions.

This language was maintained in the second charter. This language was not unique to Virginia either, though here I will focus on it since Virginia was the one who passed the resolution. Basically, the Virginia colony argued that, unlike what has been argued here, that the colonies had not, in fact, been formed to be seen as subject colonies but rather peer domains of England and thus the citizens of the colony of Virginia had the same rights as native born Englishmen.

Now, back to the Virginia Resolve:

Resolved, that the taxation of the people by themselves, or by persons chosen by themselves to represent them, who can only know what taxes the people are able to bear, or the easiest method of raising them, and must themselves be affected by every tax laid on the people, is the only security against a burdensome taxation, and the distinguishing characteristic of British freedom, without which the ancient constitution cannot exist.

Resolved, that His Majesty's liege people of this his most ancient and loyal colony have without interruption enjoyed the inestimable right of being governed by such laws, respecting their internal policy and taxation, as are derived from their own consent, with the approbation of their sovereign, or his substitute; and that the same has never been forfeited or yielded up, but has been constantly recognized by the kings and people of Great Britain.

Further beyond this, the colonies rallied together and formed the Stamp Act Congress which put together the Declaration of Rights and Grievances which the colonies sent to England for their consideration. Further, the colonists also took to boycotting English goods as much as they humanly could, which did have significant impact on English merchants who did business with the colonies and, likewise, greatly reduced the revenue the taxes were meant to collect.

Which the British even refused to do, rather than negotiate or even discuss the matter it was dismissed out of hand and while due to local ENGLISH opposition to the Stamp Act (those aforementioned merchants that the colonists were boycotting) saw it repealed, Parliament decided to make sure the uppity colonies knew their place and passed The Declaratory Act of 1766. While the American colonists celebrated their victory over the Stamp Act, some were very concerned with the language of the Declaratory Act, as it was almost word to word identical to the prior Declaratory Act of 1719 which saw the start of some of the most sever Irish repression by the British and eventual reduction of the Irish to a second class colony of England.

The next year saw the passage of yet another set of economically and politically damaging to the colonies acts passed by the Parliament, the Townshend Acts. Please note that so far there was no ongoing violence in the colonies regarding English rule and that the colonies had resorted to purely non-violent forms of protest: petition and boycott. Yet the Townshend Acts were considerably harsher. Starting with the New York Restraining Act, which basically sought to force New York to comply with the earlier mentioned quartering act. This one I'll grant is arguable, assuming you presume that you find the earlier Quartering Act just, New York's failure to enforce it obviously needed to be addressed.

Moving to the others, the Revenue Act of 1767 again placed new taxes on colonial goods, and while that was controversial, the bigger issue came from the use of Writs of Assistance in enforcing these acts, as these writs allowed the personal property of the colonists to be searched without reason or warrant, which was long considered a violation of rights of Englishmen, as laid out in Semayne's Case (1604) and Entick v. Carrington (1765).

Now we get into what is arguably the most corrupt of the Townshend Acts, the "The Indemnity Act". This one is simply government cronyism at its finest, as it basically carved out a special exception on import taxes on tea for the British East India Company in order to shore up their financial situation, which was on the verge of collapse and Parliament couldn't have that since they were too big to fail. Meanwhile this inherently destroyed any ability of colonial traders to compete, as the BEIC tea would ALWAYS cost less than either the legitimately imported tea from England by local traders, or the Dutch tea brought in by traders who refused to cooperate with mercantilist policies (*cough*smugglers*cough*).

Perhaps the least harmful and most understandable of these acts was the Commissioners of Customs Act, which just established local Customs boards to enable the enforcement of British trade law more locally. Given the distances involved at the time this was a pretty reasonable thing to do.

The final Townshend Act though is perhaps the most tyrannical, and that was the Vice Admiralty Court Act. This act altered the jurisdiction of smuggling cases from colonial courts to Royal Naval Courts. This might seem reasonable on its surface, after all, smuggling in the colonies was predominately a naval affair; however, the act did not stop there. Firstly, these Courts were judged not by juries, but by judges appointed by the crown. This alone would be considered a violation of the right to jury that was afforded to all freemen in England since at least 1641, but it gets worse, not only were these judges empowered to hear and judge cases without trial by jury, they were also awarded 5% of any fine the judge levied when they found someone guilty. In other words, the judges were financially incentivized to issue guilty verdicts regardless of the facts of the case.

In response to the Townshend Acts, the Massachusetts Bay Colony passed the

Massachusetts Circular Letter in 1768, which argued against direct taxation by Parliament and that the situation should be returned to the status of benign neglect as had been previous. Once again, note the timing and actions here, the colonists have yet to truly take any rebellious action, they instead petition and speak, and seek to deescalate the situation. In response to the circular letter, the Secretary of State for the Colonies ordered the Massachusetts' General Court to repeal the letter and ordered the other colonial governments to not endorse the letter. Note what this exactly is, this is a politician in England ordering a colonial governments, which were elected representative bodies expected to represent the will of the people to repeal or not sign onto a petition. The General Court refused to do so, and other colonies further did sign on anyway. Once again, the colonists acted within the bounds of law, exercised peaceful assembly, petition, and speech, and what response did the British do this time?

Well, in 1768 the Royally appointed governor of the Massachusetts Bay colony dissolved the duly elected Massachusetts General Court. This finally led to widespread riots specifically in Boston which, along with the earlier dislike of the Townshend acts, caused the British to station further troops in Boston in order to maintain a public order which they had disrupted.

Things were mostly quiet until 1770 until a confrontation between a British sentry and some locals grew out of hand and a mob began pelting the British soldiers with stones, which then led to a discharge of firearms, leading to five deaths. The so-called "Boston Massacre". The most interesting thing about this entire affair, despite how clearly it indicates how badly tensions had risen and the situation turning toxic, is not in the violence but in the aftermath. The resulting trial undertaken by the local Massachusetts government was, by all accounts, fair, and in interest of ensuring that fair trial, the British soldiers were represented by a leading colonial lawyer, Sons of Liberty member, and future President John Adams, who not only argued for their innocence but succeeded in exonerating six of the eight convicted and had the remaining two soldiers charged with murder reduced to manslaughter with a further reduced sentence. Note that this was a jury by local Bostonians who had no love for the British soldiers, even under these heightened tensions, rule of law was being maintained by both sides.

In an interesting historical coincidence, the same day the Boston Massacre happened, Parliament kind of sort of repealed the Townshend Acts. They left in place the Tea Tax exception for the BEIC and the creation of the local Custom Boards.

Through 1773 tensions continued to rise. Numerous local incidents sprung up regarding local vs Parliamentary rule, but most were at worst riots and mostly just protests. But in 1773 things took a decidedly downward turn when, once again Parliament decided to take an action. Once again, in order to benefit the British East India Company, which had made poor financial decisions and imported more tea than demand in England required, thus costing them considerable money, passed the Tea Act. This mercantilist and cronyist act went beyond the Townshend acts and gave the BEIC considerable benefits that no other English trader had in the tea trade. Businessmen in the colonies who deal with tea knew that this would put them out of business entirely and so organized efforts to refuse the tea entry into the colonies. Most of these efforts were peaceful, simply refusing to let BEIC ships offload tea in colonial ports along with, once again, boycotting of British goods. However, one group of Bostonians took the matter farther, leading to potentially the most financial damaging act of vandalism in modern times: the Boston Tea Party.

Now, let's not beat around the bush, the Boston Tea Party was absolutely a crime. Specifically, as I called it, vandalism. This was even recognized by some of the leading colonial secessionists of the time, with none other than Ben Franklin saying that the cost of the tea destroyed should be paid back (a considerable sum of £9,000). Some colonial merchants even offered to pay for the destroyed tea but were refused.

Instead, Parliament reacted in with a series of acts. Please note that while at this point a crime had taken place, there was no truly open rebellion, and while some parties were pushing for secession from England at this point, they had not taken up arms or done anything worse than destroy a symbolic luxury good.

Now, an aside. Let's talk about crime and punishment. It is a long considered human principle that punishment must fit the crime and be proportionate to the damage caused by the crime. This is the underlying principle of "and eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" punishment fitting the crime and in proportion to the damage caused. Punishments in excess of a crime committed are, under western religious and philosophical tradition, considered unjust and acts of tyranny, being sure signs that a government is no longer acting in the interests of the governed and no longer has legitimate right to rule. Another core aspect of justice is that the innocent should not be punished for the acts of the guilty and that people are considered innocent until proven guilty. These principles have long, LONG history in Western law, being drawn from ancient legal philosophy of the Romans, Jews, and Canon law.

So, Parliament passed the following Acts in response to the vandalism of British East India Company property. First was Boston Port Act, this act closed the port of Boston to all trade, punishing everyone in Boston for the acts of a small subset of them.

But that was not the only collective punishment Parliament undertook, they further passed the Massachusetts Government Act which functionally abolished local self-rule of the colony and prohibited Town Hall meetings without the royally appointed governor's assent. Once again punishing all of Massachusetts for the action of a small subset.

Not content with just punishing Massachusetts it also set out to insult them by passing the "Administration of Justice Act" which allowed royal governors to alter the venue of a trial from the local courts to any other jurisdiction, while requiring witnesses and lawyers for both sides to attend in the new venue. This basically was an arrangement to guarantee that a trial would be in a court favorable to the crown. Note how this act especially was a middle finger to Massachusetts in that only a few years before they had held a fair trial for British soldiers in heightened tensions.

Next, in application to all the colonies, the British passed The Quartering Act of 1774, which again had all the same problems as the earlier Quartering Act.

In response to these acts, the Colonies did not yet take up arms, rather, once again, they sought to boycotts and petition with the Suffolk Resolves and the Petition to the King.

So, a quick aside, with all this going on, it should be noted that while Parliament kept passing these laws, there WAS vocal opposition to these acts in that body. PM Edmund Burke spoke EXTENSIVELY in favor of the colonial position on many of these matters, arguing for peace and reconciliation and arguing that the colonists were correct in their understanding of their status as Englishmen with all the rights that entailed.

However, despite all this, despite not having taken up arms against the Crown, the British would not back down. Seeking to seize the private property of local militia, British troops from Boston marched to the militia storehouses in Lexington and Concord. At this point, with the attempt to unlawfully seize private assets and the means of self-defense of themselves and their families (which was, again, a violation of basic English rights of the time), did the colonists finally truly react with violence, with the Battle of Lexington and Concord. Meanwhile, in Virginia, the local governor attempted to do the same thing in a colony without this same long history of back and forth with Parliament as Massachusetts had, which was also rebuffed by local efforts and forced the royal governor to flee the colony.

So, while there is certain one criminal act on the part of the Bostonians, the actions before that and reaction by Parliament, by ignoring the colonial charters guaranteeing them the same rights as Englishmen, collective and disproportionate punishment to said crime, and then finally bringing the issue to boil by attempting to seize private arms in violation of both the natural right to self-defense and the rights of men under English common law, clearly showcase that it was the British Parliament that escalated the situation, that violated the rights of the colonists, and generally acted immorally throughout the entire affair. Meanwhile up until the very last, the colonists used non-violent means to protest these decision, seeking redress via peaceful petition and boycott, and only in the last few years after a decade of continual escalation on the part of Parliament, did open violence result.

I cannot see how it can be presumed that Parliament was moral in doing this, unless one accepts the presumption of pure Parliamentary supremacy, as the acts of Parliament clearly contravened both Monarchical decrees, in the form of the Royal colonial charters, and general republican principles of representation in government. Despite the rhetoric of the day, it was not, in fact, the Crown, the monarch, that was the leading figure in pushing these laws against the America colonies, rather, it was the Parliament doing so seeking to assert its dominance, and it was opposed in this act not just by the colonists, but even by members of its own body who recognized the actions being taken by the Parliament were unjust.
 
For the TL:DR version, England and Parliament were in violation of their own laws and the already existing charters that governed the American Colonies. As such, Rebellion against their rule could not be considered sinful as while even though Christians have been called to follow lawful authority, Parliament was acting unlawfully, had multiple egregious violations of both Natural Law and British Common Law against the colonies, and had rebuffed multiple attempts by the colonies to reconcile and correct their actions. As such, the colonies were left with few other recourses but complete submission to illegal government or rebellion.

Or in detail... reposting this for third time:

---------------------------
OK... so...

I've been sitting this out, but I feel that there appears to be a hyper narrow focus on the action of the mid 1770s, ignoring the decade of political back and forth of the prior decade between Parliament and the American Colonies.

Firstly, as has been noted, everything does trace back to the aftermath of the French and Indian War (Seven Years War for the more boring British name). The first major issue that began causing problems was the reinforcement of the British Navigation Acts in 1763. These acts inherently set the groundwork for the issues that would later unfold, in that it greatly restricted who the colonies could trade with and also required that the colonies had to import THROUGH England. These were mercantilist policies that inherently structured trade in such a way as to benefit England at the expense of the colonies.

After this you had a series of taxes that were placed and enforced on the colonies. Most of these were reasonable on their face, though they did directly harm the economy of the colonies in that they raised the cost of certain businesses. But it wasn't until 1765 and the Stamp Act that we get into some seriously overzealous taxes that were not merely designed to raise revenue but hinder the growth of the colonies in ways the British disliked. For example, the Stamp Act reserved its highest costs, £10, for attorney licenses (which, you must understand, is a ridiculously high price when you had many common jobs paying less than a £ a day), which served to hinder the growth of a native professional class in the colonies. Further, pretty much EVERYTHING paper was taxed, so this added a cost to the lives of everyday people in their daily business that was a constant reminder of Parliament's taxing them without representation or consent.

Also in 1765, well before any real colonial rebellious sentiment even had gotten started, Parliament also passed the Quartering Acts, which allowed the British military to quarter their soldiers pretty much anywhere they wanted while forcing the costs of such quartering onto the local governments, none of whom wanted those troops stationed in the colonies with the end of the war. Basically, with this law Parliament said the colonies not only had to house the soldiers stationed there "for reasons" and that they would have to pay for it. This caused further tension between the colonies and Parliament for no real benefit to ANYONE involved.

In response to these the colonies began to take purely political actions to protest. The Colony of Virginia, previously long loyal to the crown, met and passed the Virginia Resolves, which laid out Virginia's case that direct taxation upon them violated their rights as Englishmen:


Note that these assertions are true. The first Royal Charter of Virginia, issued in 1606 contained the following clause:


This language was maintained in the second charter. This language was not unique to Virginia either, though here I will focus on it since Virginia was the one who passed the resolution. Basically, the Virginia colony argued that, unlike what has been argued here, that the colonies had not, in fact, been formed to be seen as subject colonies but rather peer domains of England and thus the citizens of the colony of Virginia had the same rights as native born Englishmen.

Now, back to the Virginia Resolve:



Further beyond this, the colonies rallied together and formed the Stamp Act Congress which put together the Declaration of Rights and Grievances which the colonies sent to England for their consideration. Further, the colonists also took to boycotting English goods as much as they humanly could, which did have significant impact on English merchants who did business with the colonies and, likewise, greatly reduced the revenue the taxes were meant to collect.

Which the British even refused to do, rather than negotiate or even discuss the matter it was dismissed out of hand and while due to local ENGLISH opposition to the Stamp Act (those aforementioned merchants that the colonists were boycotting) saw it repealed, Parliament decided to make sure the uppity colonies knew their place and passed The Declaratory Act of 1766. While the American colonists celebrated their victory over the Stamp Act, some were very concerned with the language of the Declaratory Act, as it was almost word to word identical to the prior Declaratory Act of 1719 which saw the start of some of the most sever Irish repression by the British and eventual reduction of the Irish to a second class colony of England.

The next year saw the passage of yet another set of economically and politically damaging to the colonies acts passed by the Parliament, the Townshend Acts. Please note that so far there was no ongoing violence in the colonies regarding English rule and that the colonies had resorted to purely non-violent forms of protest: petition and boycott. Yet the Townshend Acts were considerably harsher. Starting with the New York Restraining Act, which basically sought to force New York to comply with the earlier mentioned quartering act. This one I'll grant is arguable, assuming you presume that you find the earlier Quartering Act just, New York's failure to enforce it obviously needed to be addressed.

Moving to the others, the Revenue Act of 1767 again placed new taxes on colonial goods, and while that was controversial, the bigger issue came from the use of Writs of Assistance in enforcing these acts, as these writs allowed the personal property of the colonists to be searched without reason or warrant, which was long considered a violation of rights of Englishmen, as laid out in Semayne's Case (1604) and Entick v. Carrington (1765).

Now we get into what is arguably the most corrupt of the Townshend Acts, the "The Indemnity Act". This one is simply government cronyism at its finest, as it basically carved out a special exception on import taxes on tea for the British East India Company in order to shore up their financial situation, which was on the verge of collapse and Parliament couldn't have that since they were too big to fail. Meanwhile this inherently destroyed any ability of colonial traders to compete, as the BEIC tea would ALWAYS cost less than either the legitimately imported tea from England by local traders, or the Dutch tea brought in by traders who refused to cooperate with mercantilist policies (*cough*smugglers*cough*).

Perhaps the least harmful and most understandable of these acts was the Commissioners of Customs Act, which just established local Customs boards to enable the enforcement of British trade law more locally. Given the distances involved at the time this was a pretty reasonable thing to do.

The final Townshend Act though is perhaps the most tyrannical, and that was the Vice Admiralty Court Act. This act altered the jurisdiction of smuggling cases from colonial courts to Royal Naval Courts. This might seem reasonable on its surface, after all, smuggling in the colonies was predominately a naval affair; however, the act did not stop there. Firstly, these Courts were judged not by juries, but by judges appointed by the crown. This alone would be considered a violation of the right to jury that was afforded to all freemen in England since at least 1641, but it gets worse, not only were these judges empowered to hear and judge cases without trial by jury, they were also awarded 5% of any fine the judge levied when they found someone guilty. In other words, the judges were financially incentivized to issue guilty verdicts regardless of the facts of the case.

In response to the Townshend Acts, the Massachusetts Bay Colony passed the

Massachusetts Circular Letter in 1768, which argued against direct taxation by Parliament and that the situation should be returned to the status of benign neglect as had been previous. Once again, note the timing and actions here, the colonists have yet to truly take any rebellious action, they instead petition and speak, and seek to deescalate the situation. In response to the circular letter, the Secretary of State for the Colonies ordered the Massachusetts' General Court to repeal the letter and ordered the other colonial governments to not endorse the letter. Note what this exactly is, this is a politician in England ordering a colonial governments, which were elected representative bodies expected to represent the will of the people to repeal or not sign onto a petition. The General Court refused to do so, and other colonies further did sign on anyway. Once again, the colonists acted within the bounds of law, exercised peaceful assembly, petition, and speech, and what response did the British do this time?

Well, in 1768 the Royally appointed governor of the Massachusetts Bay colony dissolved the duly elected Massachusetts General Court. This finally led to widespread riots specifically in Boston which, along with the earlier dislike of the Townshend acts, caused the British to station further troops in Boston in order to maintain a public order which they had disrupted.

Things were mostly quiet until 1770 until a confrontation between a British sentry and some locals grew out of hand and a mob began pelting the British soldiers with stones, which then led to a discharge of firearms, leading to five deaths. The so-called "Boston Massacre". The most interesting thing about this entire affair, despite how clearly it indicates how badly tensions had risen and the situation turning toxic, is not in the violence but in the aftermath. The resulting trial undertaken by the local Massachusetts government was, by all accounts, fair, and in interest of ensuring that fair trial, the British soldiers were represented by a leading colonial lawyer, Sons of Liberty member, and future President John Adams, who not only argued for their innocence but succeeded in exonerating six of the eight convicted and had the remaining two soldiers charged with murder reduced to manslaughter with a further reduced sentence. Note that this was a jury by local Bostonians who had no love for the British soldiers, even under these heightened tensions, rule of law was being maintained by both sides.

In an interesting historical coincidence, the same day the Boston Massacre happened, Parliament kind of sort of repealed the Townshend Acts. They left in place the Tea Tax exception for the BEIC and the creation of the local Custom Boards.

Through 1773 tensions continued to rise. Numerous local incidents sprung up regarding local vs Parliamentary rule, but most were at worst riots and mostly just protests. But in 1773 things took a decidedly downward turn when, once again Parliament decided to take an action. Once again, in order to benefit the British East India Company, which had made poor financial decisions and imported more tea than demand in England required, thus costing them considerable money, passed the Tea Act. This mercantilist and cronyist act went beyond the Townshend acts and gave the BEIC considerable benefits that no other English trader had in the tea trade. Businessmen in the colonies who deal with tea knew that this would put them out of business entirely and so organized efforts to refuse the tea entry into the colonies. Most of these efforts were peaceful, simply refusing to let BEIC ships offload tea in colonial ports along with, once again, boycotting of British goods. However, one group of Bostonians took the matter farther, leading to potentially the most financial damaging act of vandalism in modern times: the Boston Tea Party.

Now, let's not beat around the bush, the Boston Tea Party was absolutely a crime. Specifically, as I called it, vandalism. This was even recognized by some of the leading colonial secessionists of the time, with none other than Ben Franklin saying that the cost of the tea destroyed should be paid back (a considerable sum of £9,000). Some colonial merchants even offered to pay for the destroyed tea but were refused.

Instead, Parliament reacted in with a series of acts. Please note that while at this point a crime had taken place, there was no truly open rebellion, and while some parties were pushing for secession from England at this point, they had not taken up arms or done anything worse than destroy a symbolic luxury good.

Now, an aside. Let's talk about crime and punishment. It is a long considered human principle that punishment must fit the crime and be proportionate to the damage caused by the crime. This is the underlying principle of "and eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" punishment fitting the crime and in proportion to the damage caused. Punishments in excess of a crime committed are, under western religious and philosophical tradition, considered unjust and acts of tyranny, being sure signs that a government is no longer acting in the interests of the governed and no longer has legitimate right to rule. Another core aspect of justice is that the innocent should not be punished for the acts of the guilty and that people are considered innocent until proven guilty. These principles have long, LONG history in Western law, being drawn from ancient legal philosophy of the Romans, Jews, and Canon law.

So, Parliament passed the following Acts in response to the vandalism of British East India Company property. First was Boston Port Act, this act closed the port of Boston to all trade, punishing everyone in Boston for the acts of a small subset of them.

But that was not the only collective punishment Parliament undertook, they further passed the Massachusetts Government Act which functionally abolished local self-rule of the colony and prohibited Town Hall meetings without the royally appointed governor's assent. Once again punishing all of Massachusetts for the action of a small subset.

Not content with just punishing Massachusetts it also set out to insult them by passing the "Administration of Justice Act" which allowed royal governors to alter the venue of a trial from the local courts to any other jurisdiction, while requiring witnesses and lawyers for both sides to attend in the new venue. This basically was an arrangement to guarantee that a trial would be in a court favorable to the crown. Note how this act especially was a middle finger to Massachusetts in that only a few years before they had held a fair trial for British soldiers in heightened tensions.

Next, in application to all the colonies, the British passed The Quartering Act of 1774, which again had all the same problems as the earlier Quartering Act.

In response to these acts, the Colonies did not yet take up arms, rather, once again, they sought to boycotts and petition with the Suffolk Resolves and the Petition to the King.

So, a quick aside, with all this going on, it should be noted that while Parliament kept passing these laws, there WAS vocal opposition to these acts in that body. PM Edmund Burke spoke EXTENSIVELY in favor of the colonial position on many of these matters, arguing for peace and reconciliation and arguing that the colonists were correct in their understanding of their status as Englishmen with all the rights that entailed.

However, despite all this, despite not having taken up arms against the Crown, the British would not back down. Seeking to seize the private property of local militia, British troops from Boston marched to the militia storehouses in Lexington and Concord. At this point, with the attempt to unlawfully seize private assets and the means of self-defense of themselves and their families (which was, again, a violation of basic English rights of the time), did the colonists finally truly react with violence, with the Battle of Lexington and Concord. Meanwhile, in Virginia, the local governor attempted to do the same thing in a colony without this same long history of back and forth with Parliament as Massachusetts had, which was also rebuffed by local efforts and forced the royal governor to flee the colony.

So, while there is certain one criminal act on the part of the Bostonians, the actions before that and reaction by Parliament, by ignoring the colonial charters guaranteeing them the same rights as Englishmen, collective and disproportionate punishment to said crime, and then finally bringing the issue to boil by attempting to seize private arms in violation of both the natural right to self-defense and the rights of men under English common law, clearly showcase that it was the British Parliament that escalated the situation, that violated the rights of the colonists, and generally acted immorally throughout the entire affair. Meanwhile up until the very last, the colonists used non-violent means to protest these decision, seeking redress via peaceful petition and boycott, and only in the last few years after a decade of continual escalation on the part of Parliament, did open violence result.

I cannot see how it can be presumed that Parliament was moral in doing this, unless one accepts the presumption of pure Parliamentary supremacy, as the acts of Parliament clearly contravened both Monarchical decrees, in the form of the Royal colonial charters, and general republican principles of representation in government. Despite the rhetoric of the day, it was not, in fact, the Crown, the monarch, that was the leading figure in pushing these laws against the America colonies, rather, it was the Parliament doing so seeking to assert its dominance, and it was opposed in this act not just by the colonists, but even by members of its own body who recognized the actions being taken by the Parliament were unjust.


sounds like the state of our government to be honest.

I would also like to point out that from what I understand of scripture most disputes were hoped to be disputed and settled amongst the parties themselves long before they reached the courts. The courts were their to sort out a dispute which could not be resolved locally amongst the people but it was meant to be a last resort as opposed to a first resort.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
The whole “divine right of kings” thing had wobbled and died a hundred years before the Rebellion. The Colonials felt their rights as Englishmen were being infringed and ultimately the war was an expression of such rights. As S’task explained, many in Parliament felt the same way (Lord Chatham probably spent the years 1776-1783 banging his head against a wall).

Although ironically, poor old farmer George gets portrayed as a tyrant when it was Lord North’s government who effectively galaxy brained Britain into losing its American empire.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
The whole “divine right of kings” thing had wobbled and died a hundred years before the Rebellion. The Colonials felt their rights as Englishmen were being infringed and ultimately the war was an expression of such rights. As S’task explained, many in Parliament felt the same way (Lord Chatham probably spent the years 1776-1783 banging his head against a wall).

Although ironically, poor old farmer George gets portrayed as a tyrant when it was Lord North’s government who effectively galaxy brained Britain into losing its American empire.
Take a look at the book I linked, the mistreatment of the American colonies by Britain spanned more than 1 king and more than 1 government.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Take a look at the book I linked, the mistreatment of the American colonies by Britain spanned more than 1 king and more than 1 government.
This is also true. Had Virginia really wanted, they could have justified rebelling against England back under Lord Protector Cromwell's reign, seeing how he and his Parliament passed laws that were meant to explicitly punish Virginia and Bermuda for the terrible act of... supporting the King in the English Civil War.

When the Monarchy was restored, you know who felt a bit slighted? Virginia. They'd been fiercely loyal to the Crown through the English Civil War and subsequent rule of Cromwell (up to and including raising troops to support the Crown and sending them BACK to England to fight for the Crown, while also serving as a refuge for Crown loyalists while Cromwell reigned) and the thanks they got was... back to benign neglect. They weren't even allowed to expand the colony westwards like they wanted to as thanks. They did get a cool nickname though, "Old Dominion", from the King which the now-Commonwealth still uses to this day, but that's about it. But all those actual supporters who in past times would have likely been raised to the peerage for their continued support of the Crown? Utterly ignored and unrewarded. Then the French and Indian War starts up, they fight and help the Empire win and AGAIN they are refused spoils of victory AND then told "you have to pay for things despite already having paid your way and raised your own troops" AND told that "benign neglect" was ending despite Virginia's government being more stable and, arguably, older than Parliament was at that point (and that's before we get into the explicit violations of the Virginia charters by treating colonials as not!Englishmen).
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
This is also true. Had Virginia really wanted, they could have justified rebelling against England back under Lord Protector Cromwell's reign, seeing how he and his Parliament passed laws that were meant to explicitly punish Virginia and Bermuda for the terrible act of... supporting the King in the English Civil War.

When the Monarchy was restored, you know who felt a bit slighted? Virginia. They'd been fiercely loyal to the Crown through the English Civil War and subsequent rule of Cromwell (up to and including raising troops to support the Crown and sending them BACK to England to fight for the Crown, while also serving as a refuge for Crown loyalists while Cromwell reigned) and the thanks they got was... back to benign neglect. They weren't even allowed to expand the colony westwards like they wanted to as thanks. They did get a cool nickname though, "Old Dominion", from the King which the now-Commonwealth still uses to this day, but that's about it. But all those actual supporters who in past times would have likely been raised to the peerage for their continued support of the Crown? Utterly ignored and unrewarded. Then the French and Indian War starts up, they fight and help the Empire win and AGAIN they are refused spoils of victory AND then told "you have to pay for things despite already having paid your way and raised your own troops" AND told that "benign neglect" was ending despite Virginia's government being more stable and, arguably, older than Parliament was at that point (and that's before we get into the explicit violations of the Virginia charters by treating colonials as not!Englishmen).
Virginia is where Washington DC is located, right?
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Virginia is where Washington DC is located, right?
Where the land given to the Federal government that's still in the federally-controlled district was at the time. Some of the original square used to belong to Maryland, but that was returned to that state IIRC as part of the DC resident voting shenanigans.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Virginia is where Washington DC is located, right?
Adjacent to, at the time it was roughly the middle of the country North to South, and accessible by sea via the Chesapeake Bay and Potomac River.
Where the land given to the Federal government that's still in the federally-controlled district was at the time. Some of the original square used to belong to Maryland, but that was returned to that state IIRC as part of the DC resident voting shenanigans.
Other way around. Maryland is where the bulk of DC's territory came from, and the Virginia areas that were originally ceded to make the city were ceded back to the Commonwealth.

Here's a map:
iu
 

King Arts

Well-known member
By the time of the American Revolution, the foundations of the social and legal tapestry of the colonies and still well-remembered Wars of Religion had led to almost everyone in power quite strongly rejecting theological minutia like this as a basis for government decisions, and the preceding norm was outright inversion of this due to reliance on constructions like the "Divine Right of Kings" that placed legitimacy of rule in the hands of the Church.
I know most people weren't very religious. My question is about those sola scriptura christians who are "Bible alone!" Those types, also to be honest the Divine right of Kings is also heretical idolatry that I feel monarchists sin when they fetish it just like hard core republicans(that's Republicans as in those who believe in a Republic, not a specefic party)

The American Revolution didn't start as Revolution, it started as a civil protest.

Fundamentally, the Revolution started as a protest over taxation without representation, which many of the protestors believed to be illegal - essentially, the complaint was that the government was illegally treating them as second class citizens because they were far away.
Yes being taxed and not having representation sucks, but can you show me where the Bible says you have a right to "representation" or to have a say in government?

All things ultimately belong to God in an orthodox (small-o, as in, not just Eastern Orthodox but pretty much every recognizably Christian denomination post-Council of Nicaea) Christian worldview: indeed God put the earthly authorities where they are, which is why Caesar's position and very life is most certainly counted among His possessions. Furthermore, the concept of inalienable God-given natural rights was already established starting way back with Aquinas in the Middle Ages (natural law) and further refined in the Reformation & Enlightenment eras by thinkers like John Lilburne (to whom both King Charles and Cromwell were equally vile tyrants) and (for a more truly 'American' thinker in this vein) George Mason.
At least here is something talking about natural law. But if you could go into detail and explain what are rights and how do derive them from the Bible alone because otherwise how would sola scriptura protestants find them. Because you need to show that something is a right in the first place under Christianity, and many things the enlightenment thought up are not "god given rights" God told Christians to obey Caesar who usurped power from a constitutional Republic after all to have the authority of a king. So I don't see how you would have a right to freedom or representation or a voice in government if God said that Caesar an absolute monarch is to be obeyed.

Caesar cannot override God's natural law, because of course God (being the creator and only true king of the world) is infinitely greater than Caesar. So what's to be done if he tries to commit such a crime? Well, as has been articulated by these thinkers (and actually was done in cases like the ECW), it is only just & right for good Christians to oppose him. The view of anti-establishment, small-l-liberal Christians as articulated by people like the above or John Milton of Paradise Lost fame was that the highest (if not only) liberty is to be free from all earthly vices and thus being a self-regulating, virtuous person capable of following God's will entirely of one's own volition; it was explicitly NOT liberty in the way that modern hedonistic libertines define it (freedom to do whatever you want, even if it destroys yourself and/or others), and in fact Milton up there goes to some length to explain why such an attitude actually makes for natural slaves who are spiritually dead & content to let Caesar do all their thinking in exchange for being free to indulge in their own vices. If Caesar gets in your way of drawing closer to God, then Caesar and all his works must go; and where Caesar falls, the true Church arises in triumph.
Again though can you show where the things that the enlightenment thinkers called rights were recognized as such by any Christian before the American or French revolution?

Yeah, no, wrong, it was most definitely justified, as explained in 1775: A Good Year for Revolution the British were fucking with the Americans in all sorts of ways, from limiting their growth and representation, to forcing them to buy low quality British products, to trying to ban certain industries developing in the colonies, and when developed, outright trying to destroy them, like pig iron production, to mundane shit like not letting you remove some trees from your land because they were "the King's" and might have been useful in ship construction.
It was justified by secular issues I will agree. But my question is about under Christian/Bible law or thought. After all God does not say Caesar can't stop his subjects from engaging in certain trades. Traditionally the only justified reason for rebellion or coup was if the king is actively oppressing the faith, not just you not getting stuff you want.

For the TL:DR version, England and Parliament were in violation of their own laws and the already existing charters that governed the American Colonies. As such, Rebellion against their rule could not be considered sinful as while even though Christians have been called to follow lawful authority, Parliament was acting unlawfully, had multiple egregious violations of both Natural Law and British Common Law against the colonies, and had rebuffed multiple attempts by the colonies to reconcile and correct their actions. As such, the colonies were left with few other recourses but complete submission to illegal government or rebellion.
How can Parliament be acting unlawfully if they make the law? Again show where the Bible or Church Fathers in the first 1000 of years of the Church talked about Natural law giving people rights to vote, protest the government, or even free speech?

Now, an aside. Let's talk about crime and punishment. It is a long considered human principle that punishment must fit the crime and be proportionate to the damage caused by the crime. This is the underlying principle of "and eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" punishment fitting the crime and in proportion to the damage caused. Punishments in excess of a crime committed are, under western religious and philosophical tradition, considered unjust and acts of tyranny, being sure signs that a government is no longer acting in the interests of the governed and no longer has legitimate right to rule. Another core aspect of justice is that the innocent should not be punished for the acts of the guilty and that people are considered innocent until proven guilty. These principles have long, LONG history in Western law, being drawn from ancient legal philosophy of the Romans, Jews, and Canon law.
Insurrection is one step short of actual treason, under the law of eye for an eye the British Empire would have been justified to have it's army sail into Boston and kill off all the men and rape the women and sell them into slavery. You bring up the Roman Empire but you should look up the history of Rome and how they would have dealt with a city doing what Boston and the other colonies did. Again being angry about the stuff like Boston massacre where only like 13 people died is laughable as the Romans responded to riots by killing hundreds. Roman law would have put down the American rebels hard, your argument is wrong the long history in western law is that harsh punishment for treason and insurrection and rebellion is common. It's only in the enlightenment when they moved away from western tradition that those things stoped.


This is also true. Had Virginia really wanted, they could have justified rebelling against England back under Lord Protector Cromwell's reign, seeing how he and his Parliament passed laws that were meant to explicitly punish Virginia and Bermuda for the terrible act of... supporting the King in the English Civil War.

When the Monarchy was restored, you know who felt a bit slighted? Virginia. They'd been fiercely loyal to the Crown through the English Civil War and subsequent rule of Cromwell (up to and including raising troops to support the Crown and sending them BACK to England to fight for the Crown, while also serving as a refuge for Crown loyalists while Cromwell reigned) and the thanks they got was... back to benign neglect. They weren't even allowed to expand the colony westwards like they wanted to as thanks. They did get a cool nickname though, "Old Dominion", from the King which the now-Commonwealth still uses to this day, but that's about it. But all those actual supporters who in past times would have likely been raised to the peerage for their continued support of the Crown? Utterly ignored and unrewarded. Then the French and Indian War starts up, they fight and help the Empire win and AGAIN they are refused spoils of victory AND then told "you have to pay for things despite already having paid your way and raised your own troops" AND told that "benign neglect" was ending despite Virginia's government being more stable and, arguably, older than Parliament was at that point (and that's before we get into the explicit violations of the Virginia charters by treating colonials as not!Englishmen).
Again you are giving secular reasons for a rebellion this would not be an acceptable reason under Christian law for rebellion. For example if a King did not reward a vassal lord who was loyal well enough and did not give the lord the "spoils that he deserved in his own mind" that would not justify the lord rebelling against his liege. He would be decried as a greedy traitor and sinning. (Unless he won of course then his descendants are the new legitimate Caesars.)
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
I know most people weren't very religious. My question is about those sola scriptura christians who are "Bible alone!" Those types, also to be honest the Divine right of Kings is also heretical idolatry that I feel monarchists sin when they fetish it just like hard core republicans(that's Republicans as in those who believe in a Republic, not a specefic party)


Yes being taxed and not having representation sucks, but can you show me where the Bible says you have a right to "representation" or to have a say in government?


At least here is something talking about natural law. But if you could go into detail and explain what are rights and how do derive them from the Bible alone because otherwise how would sola scriptura protestants find them. Because you need to show that something is a right in the first place under Christianity, and many things the enlightenment thought up are not "god given rights" God told Christians to obey Caesar who usurped power from a constitutional Republic after all to have the authority of a king. So I don't see how you would have a right to freedom or representation or a voice in government if God said that Caesar an absolute monarch is to be obeyed.


Again though can you show where the things that the enlightenment thinkers called rights were recognized as such by any Christian before the American or French revolution?


It was justified by secular issues I will agree. But my question is about under Christian/Bible law or thought. After all God does not say Caesar can't stop his subjects from engaging in certain trades. Traditionally the only justified reason for rebellion or coup was if the king is actively oppressing the faith, not just you not getting stuff you want.


How can Parliament be acting unlawfully if they make the law? Again show where the Bible or Church Fathers in the first 1000 of years of the Church talked about Natural law giving people rights to vote, protest the government, or even free speech?


Insurrection is one step short of actual treason, under the law of eye for an eye the British Empire would have been justified to have it's army sail into Boston and kill off all the men and rape the women and sell them into slavery. You bring up the Roman Empire but you should look up the history of Rome and how they would have dealt with a city doing what Boston and the other colonies did. Again being angry about the stuff like Boston massacre where only like 13 people died is laughable as the Romans responded to riots by killing hundreds. Roman law would have put down the American rebels hard, your argument is wrong the long history in western law is that harsh punishment for treason and insurrection and rebellion is common. It's only in the enlightenment when they moved away from western tradition that those things stoped.



Again you are giving secular reasons for a rebellion this would not be an acceptable reason under Christian law for rebellion. For example if a King did not reward a vassal lord who was loyal well enough and did not give the lord the "spoils that he deserved in his own mind" that would not justify the lord rebelling against his liege. He would be decried as a greedy traitor and sinning. (Unless he won of course then his descendants are the new legitimate Caesars.)
Rended onto God what is god's and render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. ;)
 

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