I Wish I Had a Gun Just Like the A-10

LordSunhawk

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Just to make a point, the A-10's pylons are quite capable of taking any stores and stores adaptors made for the A-1... including the torpedo shackles. And has sufficiently rated hardpoints and enough lift capacity to carry four Mk 13's with pickle barrels. Which, I might add, can be dropped successfully even at the top end of the A-10's performance envelope.
 
Just to make a point, the A-10's pylons are quite capable of taking any stores and stores adaptors made for the A-1... including the torpedo shackles. And has sufficiently rated hardpoints and enough lift capacity to carry four Mk 13's with pickle barrels. Which, I might add, can be dropped successfully even at the top end of the A-10's performance envelope.


Basically you’re saying the A-10 would have been a perfect 1960s torpedo bomber...
 
Basically you’re saying the A-10 would have been a perfect 1960s torpedo bomber...
The A-10 was certainly exactly the aircraft we needed for the Korean War. The original concept was based on experiences in the early years of the Vietnam War but when that war ended, so did that operational role. By 1968, the A-10 was being recast around that damn big gun and called a tank-killer. There's a very good book on this called "Close Air Support in Vietnam" by Col. Ralph A Rowley and published by Defense Lion Publications.

Anyway, as a torpedo bomber? I'm assuming this is for carrier use. I honestly don't know if the A-10 was suitable for flying off a carrier. There's nothing incompatible in the basic data but that's only half the story (if that). There's a lot of characteristics required for carrier suitability that don't get mentioned in standard data - like stability on final approach. A good example is the P-80 which was considered in 1944 as the US Navy's first carrier jet. On paper, it was good, in reality it didn't work so well. It proved very dangerous to land on a carrier because the combination of a flat landing approach and the airflow over the deck of the carrier made the aircraft "float". So, I can't say one way or the other whether the A-10 would have been carrier operable.

What really killed the torpedo bomber was the E-2 airborne early warning aircraft. The coming in low and slow with torpedoes approach exploited a basic problem with radar. Using normal radars, a very low-altitude aircraft is lost in sea clutter and that makes interception very difficult. The other type of radar is Doppler radars which work on the approaching aircraft's speed. By coming in slowly enough, it won't pick up the inbound aircraft. So, a low, slow approach would escape radar detection and there was a very good chance the attacking aircraft would get to weapons release before being intercepted. This caused a major US Navy crisis in the late 1950s when they realized their carriers were very vulnerable. Fortunately, we know now the Sovs hadn't spotted the problem. But, during the 1950s and early 1960s, torpedo-carrying A-1 Skyraiders were actually the most effective anti-ship strike aircraft the US Navy had. If you're interested in air defense problems and a treatise on just how difficult, complex and expensive managing an air battle is, read "Fighters over the Fleet" by Dr. Friedman.

When the E-2 came in, its ability to look down on the battlefield from above solved the low-slow problem. It also pushed the detection range for inbound strikes out by an order of magnitude. So, by the time the A-10 came along, torpedo attack had passed its sell-by date. These days, it probably would be a good torpedo plane, from land bases and possibly carriers, but there are much simpler and cheaper ways of doing the same thing. Also, the A-10s are horribly vulnerable to defensive fire at low altitude (so is everybody) and casualties would be unacceptable. If a very hot WW3 had happened, the A-10 fleet would probably not have survived the first day.

Yes, I've seen lots of pictures of very badly damaged A-10s making it home. The important question was, how and why did they get that way? These days, unless there are critical operational requirements to do otherwise, attack aircraft stay above 15,000 feet and drop precision-guided munitions. That way they are above the zone where automatic guns and shoulder-fired missiles are effective and weapons that can reach that high are in transit long enough for electronic countermeasures to do their job. That big gun and heavy armor on the A-10 really don't count for much any more.
 
@Francis Urquhart , granted, there’s no real question that these days the AirLand Scorpion with a mass of SDBs at altitude would be vastly more effective than an A-10.
 
@Francis Urquhart , granted, there’s no real question that these days the AirLand Scorpion with a mass of SDBs at altitude would be vastly more effective than an A-10.
That's sure the truth. The A-10 is an albatross around the Air Force's neck right now. It's really questionable if we should ever have built it and it certainly shouldn't have hung around this long.

The AirLand Scorpion is a very interesting aircraft. The current word is that if funding was available, we should be buying it for the Air National Guard. It's low-cost to procure, inexpensive to run and its got two seats. It can't fight the Day One Air Battle but its capable enough to support follow-up operations. It's big weakness is avionics. It's got an austere fit right now and things like target identification is a problem. That's fixable though.

The real problem is lack of funds. The defense budget is desperately tight right now and there's nothing available for "nice to have" additions. DoD has been underfunded for twenty years and we need (probably) close to a $900 billion budget to make up the deficiencies. Right now, we're getting $733 billion. If we can get more, the Scorpion would be a good place to put it.

Give the Antifa people a hell of a shock when they start rioting after PDJT wins in 2020.
 
@Francis Urquhart , granted, there’s no real question that these days the AirLand Scorpion with a mass of SDBs at altitude would be vastly more effective than an A-10.
That's sure the truth. The A-10 is an albatross around the Air Force's neck right now. It's really questionable if we should ever have built it and it certainly shouldn't have hung around this long.

The AirLand Scorpion is a very interesting aircraft. The current word is that if funding was available, we should be buying it for the Air National Guard. It's low-cost to procure, inexpensive to run and its got two seats. It can't fight the Day One Air Battle but its capable enough to support follow-up operations. It's big weakness is avionics. It's got an austere fit right now and things like target identification is a problem. That's fixable though.

The real problem is lack of funds. The defense budget is desperately tight right now and there's nothing available for "nice to have" additions. DoD has been underfunded for twenty years and we need (probably) close to a $900 billion budget to make up the deficiencies. Right now, we're getting $733 billion. If we can get more, the Scorpion would be a good place to put it.

Give the Antifa people a hell of a shock when they start rioting after PDJT wins in 2020.
I will just leave this here.



The A-10 still has uses.
 
Considering that we've mostly been fighting ground forces using old Soviet-era tanks the A-10 was designed to kill or other ground forces which lack any anti-air capabilities, I think it'd be better to keep it around for the time being. If you plan on keeping close-air support as a mission, there really is no replacing the A-10. And from my experience in the Air Force, the main problem it has with the A-10 is that it doesn't fit its image of itself.
 
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News flash you aren't gonna conduct CAS period in airspace that has not ban sanitized first. Even the vaunted F-35 would get knocked out of the sky with anti-air weapons until that happens. And on an important note. Bullets will remain cheaper than Bombs and missiles any day and all day.
 
And the truth is that A-10's can and have operated in contested airspace and fulfilled their missions, and made it home after serious damage that would have killed any of the lesser platforms that you are cheerleading.

In BRRRRRTTTT the ground pounders trust. I will note that one of the reasons the Air Force grits their teeth and keeps the A-10 in service is because the Army has stated point blank that if they retire them that the Army will throw the Key West Agreement out the window and take them for themselves.
 
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That's because its where the Buccaneer came from - it was designed primarily as a Sverdlov killer using a tactical nuke. It would come in very low, then loft the device on to the target. The radar problem would allow it to get in and out clear. The Banana was a very good aircraft that never got pushed the way it should have been.
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Absolutely right. If we had lots of money, keeping the A-10 around as an acquired and fully-depreciated asset would make some sense but with the current defense budget there are too many unfilled requirements to make it economically viable.

Considering that we've mostly been fighting ground forces using old Soviet-era tanks the A-10 was designed to kill or other ground forces which lack any anti-air capabilities, I think it'd be better to keep it around for the time being. If you plan on keeping close-air support as a mission, there really is no replacing the A-10. And from my experience in the Air Force, the main problem it has with the A-10 is that it doesn't fit its image of itself.
The first part of that is true. We have been fighting in a very permissive for almost twenty years. The times are changing though; that permissive environment is going away fast and we have to anticipate the environment we'll be facing in the future. Also, while that permissive environment has been rolling along, there's been two generational changes in the threat systems and those threat systems are becoming much more widely spread. Syria is a good example of that; there's kit flowing into there (and Turkey) that is two generations more advanced than anything we have seen in the past. At the same time the old stuff is fading away. Syria is the first war since WW2 (possible hyperbole there but I think its correct) in which there is no recorded case of anybody using a T-34-85 and even T-55s sightings have been rare. The operational standard is the T-72 and the first models of that are already fading away. In the Yemen War, the oldest AFVs seen are SU-100s (one of which knocked out a Saudi M-1. The problem with old kit is that every so often one runs into a shit-hot commander who can use it). At the same time, the newer shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles have a level of lethality that is a bit chilling and their homing heads can filter out decoys (flares). Its the micro-processing revolution at work. In Vietnam, the generational change in weaponry drove piston-engine counter-insurgency aircraft off the battlefield completely. The A-1 had been the perfect aircraft for Vietnam right up to the time the SA-7 arrived. Then, it was useless (See Air War - Vietnam) That's happened already with the A-10. Once it had its virtues but times have changed and the rate of change over time is speeding up.

Procurement processes and product development now take so long that the decisions we make now affect force structures in one to two decades time. Therefore strategic assessments have to think that far ahead and we have to make the investments now to get the equipment we need then. As Timothy points out, the best way of saving large sums of money is to take an entire type out of service. Cutting numbers but not types doesn't bring anything like the same level of economy. If we are going to take an entire type out, the A-10 is the obvious candidate followed by the B-1. In fact, last week the USAF proposed eliminating the B-1 fleet and investing the money in additional B-21s. Which is a very good idea given that most B-1s don't fly very much anyway. Don't get me wrong, I love the B-1, its one of my favorite aircraft, but the truth is that its a maintenance nightmare, has dreadful operability rates and is generally an expensive luxury. Getting rid of it simply makes economic sense and its cost-effectiveness that finally rules.

However, I strongly disagree with the comment that keeping the CAS mission means keeping the A-10. The A-10 is only one tool we have for that job. Today, CAS means using precision guided munitions, dropped or fired from above 15,000 feet. We have plenty of platforms that can do that. What we need to invest in is the tools to make that precision guided munitions capability more effective - which means more accurate and responsive. That means improving the air-to-ground interface so that the forward observers on the ground can get a faster and more accurate response. That's probably the top CAS priority right now. Right up there with it is battle management and working out whose troops are where. The A-10 is old and obsolete, designed for an environment that doesn't exist any more. Time for it to go so we can spend the money on up-to-date systems.

And the truth is that A-10's can and have operated in contested airspace and fulfilled their missions, and made it home after serious damage that would have killed any of the lesser platforms that you are cheerleading.
Not any more they don't. Now, they, like everybody else stay above 15,000 feet and deliver PGMs. Which, in fairness they do quite well BUT there are multiple other types that do it better. What matters today is connectivity; the ability of the aircraft to communicate with ground troops and provide timely-accurate support. That requires a generation of communications equipment the A-10s just don't have - the recent upgrades helped but they don't bring about a solution to that problem. By the way you should ask yourself how the seriously damaged A-10s got that way. As to "lesser platforms", the moment we have any serious opposition, A-10 becomes probably the least effective CAS platform we have right now. It doesn't offer anything that an A-28 can't provide cheaper and better.

In general, guns for ground attack are going away. They have/had their uses in very permissive environments but such environments shrink daily. The AC-130 is a good example. If you want big guns in aircraft, the AC-130 has a 105mm howitzer. Only the replacement for the AC-130 won't have a gun at all. Instead, it will be armed with palletized precision-guided bombs and missiles (Dragon Spear). The internal volume acquired by using a C-130 airframe allows for super-connectivity with the ground forces while disposing of the guns means the aircraft can stay above the 15,000 foot level. In fact, the Marines have already procured conversion kits for their C-130s that convert them into very much that configuration (Harvest Hawk) Palletized so the aircraft can do their normal thing most of the time and be turned into PGM launchers when needed. IIRC the Marines hold three sets of conversion kits per squadron of KC-130Js

I will note that one of the reasons the Air Force grits their teeth and keeps the A-10 in service is because the Army has stated point blank that if they retire them that the Army will throw the Key West Agreement out the window and take them for themselves.
That's not true; the Army has done nothing of the sort. It makes a good story but it is a myth along with the story that the Marines demanded to take the A-10 fleet over if the Air Force retired it. The Army has much more important things to worry about right now than a few obsolete ground-attack aircraft and they know very well that trying to take them over would destroy their budget. They're being hit by the same budget problems that everybody else is suffering. We've been putting off badly-needed investments for twenty years and its caught up with us big-time. The technical superiority we've taken for granted for decades has been seriously eroded. There's an old saying that nothing destroys armies faster than counter-insurgency operations and its true. The permissive environment we've had for two decades has meant that badly-needed replacement kit has been neglected and old, obsolete gear kept in service because it was marginally good enough and the funds for replacement were being consumed by O&M. Now, the old stuff like the A-10 has reached the end of its life and the replacements desperately need funding. That means we have to swallow and make some hard decisions. Things that are "nice to have" have to be dumped in favor of "things we must have".
 
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That's not true; the Army has done nothing of the sort.
Exactly, Army loves the PGM and gun support A-10 gives, but is not willing to spend a single $ on it, they prefer to lobby to Congress to force the USAF to keep spending money on it. So if the USAF somehow finds the political support to retire A-10, they will raise a media storm and that will be it.

Syria is the first war since WW2 (possible hyperbole there but I think its correct) in which there is no recorded case of anybody using a T-34-85 and even T-55s sightings have been rare.
Actually the T-55 was very common tank throughout the Syrian War, however the losses, along with wear and tear, took their toll on their numbers, with reminder mostly relegated to NDF units, so they are not really seen anymore since the conclusion of the Southern campaign.

And T-34/85 have been used in Yemen war, Houthis have been using them against pro-Saudi militas in the South.
 
Exactly, Army loves the PGM and gun support A-10 gives, but is not willing to spend a single $ on it, they prefer to lobby to Congress to force the USAF to keep spending money on it. So if the USAF somehow finds the political support to retire A-10, they will raise a media storm and that will be it.
That's an interesting take on the situation but I would put a different accent on it. The Army likes having air support, but is very cynical about actually getting any. They see the Air Force as a bunch of zoomies who aren't happy unless they are doing Mach 2 and engaging in knightly jousting with other fighter pilots. The Army believes that if the Air Force has aircraft with any function other than close support, they'll spend all their time doing that function and note the close air support bit. The A-10 is useless for any function other than close air support and so the Army thinks that it the aircraft most likely to be available for that role. They believe (wrongly I fear) that keeping the A-10 means getting their close air support. Sadly, they are somewhat deluded on that point. They also believe that the A-10 represents capability, albeit marginal, that they don't have to pay for.

If the Air Force was able to convince the Army that they could rely on getting CAS from other types, then all the Army's objections to losing the A-10s would magically fade away. So, the Army see their propaganda barrage supporting the A-10 as a way of blackmailing the Air Force into providing a way of guaranteeing their PGM support (that 30mm gun doesn't count for anything in today's world unless its a really benign environment). The Air Force are actually addressing that issue and looking at options that provide timely PGM support in quantity. That means connectivity. The big problem with CAS has always been the propensity of CAS aircraft to hit friendly troops by accident. In the past that was mitigated by the equal propensity of CAS to miss what they were shooting at. With PGMs, that doesn't happen any more so we have disasters in the making.

As a last thing, the A-10s are the Air Force's equivalent of the battleships. they are Omega postings. Pilots and crews know if they are posted to an A-10 unit, their careers are effectively over; if the Air Force wanted to keep them, they'd have been assigned somewhere else.

Actually the T-55 was very common tank throughout the Syrian War, however the losses, along with wear and tear, took their toll on their numbers, with reminder mostly relegated to NDF units, so they are not really seen anymore since the conclusion of the Southern campaign.
That's very interesting information, thank you. Our experience in recent years is that most reported T-54/T-55 sightings are actually Chinese-built Type 69s and Type 79s. Iran received large numbers of these but phased them out in 2004 and passed them on to other regional users.

And T-34/85 have been used in Yemen war, Houthis have been using them against pro-Saudi militas in the South.

Now that is new and, once again, thank you for a very interesting piece of data. Our information comes from the Saudis and they claim mostly T-72 sightings with a handful of T-55s (which we think were Type 69s supplied by Iran). However, and this is a big however, the Saudis suffer from Tiger Syndrome. Just as any tank the Allies took on in 1944/45 was reported as a Tiger, so any tank the Saudis take on is reported as a late-model, fully-upgraded T-72 (or T-80 or T-90 depending on what You-tube videos the Saudi crews have been watching). So, T-34-85 is possible for the Houthis.

My favorite T-34-85 story comes from Ukraine and features a T-34-85 that was part of a war memorial. In an anti-government riot, some of the rioters found it, put oil in the engine and added the other fluids, started it up and waddled off down the street to do combat with the riot police. Unfortunately, while they were good mechanics, they were poor tankists and outran their infantry support. They also left the hatches open and the riot police simply tossed tear gas grenades inside. So, working-condition T-34s still hanging around can't be discounted.

However . . . . The Russians are making a lot of films and TV shows about the Great Patriotic War these days and are buying all the working T-34s they can find. We know of one deal where an Army had some T-34-85s in a depot and the Russians bought them in a 1-for-1 exchange for T-72B3s. My guess based on that is that if somebody has a genuine, original-production T-34-76 they could get a T-90S for it. As far as is known, all the T-34-76s around on display or in museums are actually converted T-34-85s. If somebody does know where a genuine T-34-76 is, please inform the Russian Ministry of Culture who will be duly grateful. :)
 
That's an interesting take on the situation but I would put a different accent on it. The Army likes having air support, but is very cynical about actually getting any. They see the Air Force as a bunch of zoomies who aren't happy unless they are doing Mach 2 and engaging in knightly jousting with other fighter pilots. The Army believes that if the Air Force has aircraft with any function other than close support, they'll spend all their time doing that function and note the close air support bit. The A-10 is useless for any function other than close air support and so the Army thinks that it the aircraft most likely to be available for that role. They believe (wrongly I fear) that keeping the A-10 means getting their close air support. Sadly, they are somewhat deluded on that point. They also believe that the A-10 represents capability, albeit marginal, that they don't have to pay for.

If the Air Force was able to convince the Army that they could rely on getting CAS from other types, then all the Army's objections to losing the A-10s would magically fade away. So, the Army see their propaganda barrage supporting the A-10 as a way of blackmailing the Air Force into providing a way of guaranteeing their PGM support (that 30mm gun doesn't count for anything in today's world unless its a really benign environment). The Air Force are actually addressing that issue and looking at options that provide timely PGM support in quantity. That means connectivity. The big problem with CAS has always been the propensity of CAS aircraft to hit friendly troops by accident. In the past that was mitigated by the equal propensity of CAS to miss what they were shooting at. With PGMs, that doesn't happen any more so we have disasters in the making.

As a last thing, the A-10s are the Air Force's equivalent of the battleships. they are Omega postings. Pilots and crews know if they are posted to an A-10 unit, their careers are effectively over; if the Air Force wanted to keep them, they'd have been assigned somewhere else.
From what I have heard from people who were in the current conflicts, the Army isn't completely wrong on this point. Basically, because A-10s are nothing but ground support, and pilots posted there are unlikely to ever get a different aircraft, they get good at it in a way that multi-role pilots don't. The boots on the ground like the A-10s because in their experience, the A-10 actually delivers the bomb to the target reliably, the first time. All the fancy PMGs in the world do you no good if you cannot punch the coordinates into the computer right.
 
From what I have heard from people who were in the current conflicts, the Army isn't completely wrong on this point. Basically, because A-10s are nothing but ground support, and pilots posted there are unlikely to ever get a different aircraft, they get good at it in a way that multi-role pilots don't. The boots on the ground like the A-10s because in their experience, the A-10 actually delivers the bomb to the target reliably, the first time. All the fancy PMGs in the world do you no good if you cannot punch the coordinates into the computer right.
Not to mention the vaunted precision guided munitions have hit civilian targets because either the Pilot of the fancy jet or the Drone operator did an oopsy.
 
A little history lesson.

The Air Force had one of the best CAS aircraft in the world, the mighty A-1 Skyraider, and it served immensely well. The Army loved being supported by Skyraiders, because when they needed support *now*, the Spads were there.

Then the Air Force got rid of Skyraider, told the Army that their fancy fast mover jets could deliver all the support they'd ever need! Look at how accurate these new bombs are! And they're more survivable on the modern battlefield.

Only... all those fancy new fast moving jets that were supposed to support the Army? They never did, they were too busy zooming around the battlefield playing tag with the enemy fast movers, because fast mover pilots all want to be aces and you don't get bragging rights for 'moving mud'. Or if they were available for support, you'd get one bombing run a day, maybe, before the fast mover ran out of gas and had to go back to base, then be pampered by the maintenance crews. Need a second bombing run because the first one missed, or there were more enemy? Tough luck!

So the Army used helicopter gunships as stopgap solutions, but they were too fragile, too slow, and too vulnerable to be *the* replacement for Skyraider.

Cue the AH-56 Cheyenne. The Army were going to get themselves a helicopter that had the speed of a Spad, the endurance of a Spad, could carry ordnance all day long, and would be under their control, not the Air Force, so it wouldn't be swanning around at 30k feet playing tag with MiGs while the poor grunts needed support.

The Air Force *freaked out*, the Cheyenne's performance levels were up to the low end of their beloved fighters, it was a seriously sexy flying platform, and threatened their budget since for years the Air Force had been using the budget monies allocated for moving mud to instead buy more and sexier fast movers to zoom around in.

Congress refused to kill the Cheyenne, because the Army had a bloody point, the Air Force had, under Key West, committed to providing as-needed ground support to the Army and was utterly failing at doing so. So the Air Force gritted their teeth and opened up the A-X program. Voila, the A-10 is born.

Once the A-10 was coming into service, the Air Force promised the army that they'd buy massive numbers of them to guarantee the grunts on the ground would always have air support from BRRRRTTTT. So could the Army please cancel Cheyenne? The Army, being foolishly optimistic that the Air Force wouldn't try and screw them again, did so. And the Air Force promptly tried to withdraw the A-10 and replace them with... fast sexy fast movers like the F-16. 'They can carry bombs you know, look how accurate they are? Honest, we won't zoom around at 35k feet with them instead of supporting you with them!'

The Army completely refused to bite, a major motivator for the Apache program has been to keep an in-house support option that the Air Force knows full well can be upgraded to Cheyenne levels of performance (note, Boeing is as we speak developing an Apache upgrade that turns it into a compound helicopter like Cheyenne...) They've also howled at Congress every time the Air Force tries to again kill the A-10, because no grunt in their right mind trusts that the Air Force will ever fulfill that mission without it.
 
From what I have heard from people who were in the current conflicts, the Army isn't completely wrong on this point. Basically, because A-10s are nothing but ground support, and pilots posted there are unlikely to ever get a different aircraft, they get good at it in a way that multi-role pilots don't.
That's a yes and no. They do get more practice at it and they stay with the units longer. The problem is that they leave earlier and they take the expertise with them. This means their institutional memory is seriously impeded and lessons don't get passed down. So, win some, lose some.

The boots on the ground like the A-10s because in their experience, the A-10 actually delivers the bomb to the target reliably, the first time. All the fancy PMGs in the world do you no good if you cannot punch the coordinates into the computer right.
This is what I keep saying about connectivity. The source of error isn't usually entering coordinates into the system but keeping a running check on who is where. That requires integration into a battle management system and the A-10s aren't in that world. Which is why the A-10 is notorious with allied troops for shooting up friendly targets. Also, the A-10s ability to drop unguided bombs on target is directly related to their ability to fly low and that's only possible in a permissive environment, something that is going away fast. In anything other than a very permissive environment, the A-10s won't deliver their bombs on target because they'll be a pile of smoking wreckage first. Even as long ago as the mid-1980s, it was recognized that the A-10 fleet wouldn't survive the first day of full-scale fighting on the Central Front.

Something to think about; every argument that is made for keeping the A-10 in service could be applied with equal force to bringing back the P-47.
 
A little history lesson.

The Air Force had one of the best CAS aircraft in the world, the mighty A-1 Skyraider, and it served immensely well. The Army loved being supported by Skyraiders, because when they needed support *now*, the Spads were there.

Then the Air Force got rid of Skyraider, told the Army that their fancy fast mover jets could deliver all the support they'd ever need! Look at how accurate these new bombs are! And they're more survivable on the modern battlefield.

Only... all those fancy new fast moving jets that were supposed to support the Army? They never did, they were too busy zooming around the battlefield playing tag with the enemy fast movers, because fast mover pilots all want to be aces and you don't get bragging rights for 'moving mud'. Or if they were available for support, you'd get one bombing run a day, maybe, before the fast mover ran out of gas and had to go back to base, then be pampered by the maintenance crews. Need a second bombing run because the first one missed, or there were more enemy? Tough luck!

So the Army used helicopter gunships as stopgap solutions, but they were too fragile, too slow, and too vulnerable to be *the* replacement for Skyraider.

Cue the AH-56 Cheyenne. The Army were going to get themselves a helicopter that had the speed of a Spad, the endurance of a Spad, could carry ordnance all day long, and would be under their control, not the Air Force, so it wouldn't be swanning around at 30k feet playing tag with MiGs while the poor grunts needed support.

The Air Force *freaked out*, the Cheyenne's performance levels were up to the low end of their beloved fighters, it was a seriously sexy flying platform, and threatened their budget since for years the Air Force had been using the budget monies allocated for moving mud to instead buy more and sexier fast movers to zoom around in.

Congress refused to kill the Cheyenne, because the Army had a bloody point, the Air Force had, under Key West, committed to providing as-needed ground support to the Army and was utterly failing at doing so. So the Air Force gritted their teeth and opened up the A-X program. Voila, the A-10 is born.

Once the A-10 was coming into service, the Air Force promised the army that they'd buy massive numbers of them to guarantee the grunts on the ground would always have air support from BRRRRTTTT. So could the Army please cancel Cheyenne? The Army, being foolishly optimistic that the Air Force wouldn't try and screw them again, did so. And the Air Force promptly tried to withdraw the A-10 and replace them with... fast sexy fast movers like the F-16. 'They can carry bombs you know, look how accurate they are? Honest, we won't zoom around at 35k feet with them instead of supporting you with them!'

The Army completely refused to bite, a major motivator for the Apache program has been to keep an in-house support option that the Air Force knows full well can be upgraded to Cheyenne levels of performance (note, Boeing is as we speak developing an Apache upgrade that turns it into a compound helicopter like Cheyenne...) They've also howled at Congress every time the Air Force tries to again kill the A-10, because no grunt in their right mind trusts that the Air Force will ever fulfill that mission without it.
I remember a story about how Pilots were made to do ride a longs on Riverine Boats in Vietnam so that they would see why giving Air Support to boat crews was important. My sneeky side says it was a way the Boat Guys could make sure Air Cover showed up. Either cover us or Pilot Little Jimmy Gets it.
 
A little history lesson.

The Air Force had one of the best CAS aircraft in the world, the mighty A-1 Skyraider, and it served immensely well. The Army loved being supported by Skyraiders, because when they needed support *now*, the Spads were there.

Then the Air Force got rid of Skyraider, told the Army that their fancy fast mover jets could deliver all the support they'd ever need! Look at how accurate these new bombs are! And they're more survivable on the modern battlefield.

Only... all those fancy new fast moving jets that were supposed to support the Army? They never did, they were too busy zooming around the battlefield playing tag with the enemy fast movers, because fast mover pilots all want to be aces and you don't get bragging rights for 'moving mud'. Or if they were available for support, you'd get one bombing run a day, maybe, before the fast mover ran out of gas and had to go back to base, then be pampered by the maintenance crews. Need a second bombing run because the first one missed, or there were more enemy? Tough luck!

So the Army used helicopter gunships as stopgap solutions, but they were too fragile, too slow, and too vulnerable to be *the* replacement for Skyraider.

Cue the AH-56 Cheyenne. The Army were going to get themselves a helicopter that had the speed of a Spad, the endurance of a Spad, could carry ordnance all day long, and would be under their control, not the Air Force, so it wouldn't be swanning around at 30k feet playing tag with MiGs while the poor grunts needed support.

The Air Force *freaked out*, the Cheyenne's performance levels were up to the low end of their beloved fighters, it was a seriously sexy flying platform, and threatened their budget since for years the Air Force had been using the budget monies allocated for moving mud to instead buy more and sexier fast movers to zoom around in.

Congress refused to kill the Cheyenne, because the Army had a bloody point, the Air Force had, under Key West, committed to providing as-needed ground support to the Army and was utterly failing at doing so. So the Air Force gritted their teeth and opened up the A-X program. Voila, the A-10 is born.

Once the A-10 was coming into service, the Air Force promised the army that they'd buy massive numbers of them to guarantee the grunts on the ground would always have air support from BRRRRTTTT. So could the Army please cancel Cheyenne? The Army, being foolishly optimistic that the Air Force wouldn't try and screw them again, did so. And the Air Force promptly tried to withdraw the A-10 and replace them with... fast sexy fast movers like the F-16. 'They can carry bombs you know, look how accurate they are? Honest, we won't zoom around at 35k feet with them instead of supporting you with them!'

The Army completely refused to bite, a major motivator for the Apache program has been to keep an in-house support option that the Air Force knows full well can be upgraded to Cheyenne levels of performance (note, Boeing is as we speak developing an Apache upgrade that turns it into a compound helicopter like Cheyenne...) They've also howled at Congress every time the Air Force tries to again kill the A-10, because no grunt in their right mind trusts that the Air Force will ever fulfill that mission without it.
I wonder how hard it would be to restart production of Skyraiders, maybe with an upgraded powerplant and equipment for PGMs?
 
@Francis Urquhart that’s precisely why the AirLand Scorpion could be an A-10 replacement for the modern day. 24 SDBs with networked targeting far exceeds the kill probability of the rockets and 30mm of the A-10 against tanks, and it could engage from up to 45,000 feet...
 

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