I Wish I Had a Gun Just Like the A-10

A little history lesson. The Air Force had one of the best CAS aircraft in the world, the mighty A-1 Skyraider, and it served immensely well. The Army loved being supported by Skyraiders, because when they needed support *now*, the Spads were there. Then the Air Force got rid of Skyraider, told the Army that their fancy fast mover jets could deliver all the support they'd ever need! Look at how accurate these new bombs are! And they're more survivable on the modern battlefield.

No, not true. See Air War Vietnam by van Staveraan. The A-1 was a great light attack aircraft right up to the time that multiple AA mounts (especially the ZU-23) and the SA-7 missile arrived in numbers. Then, the A-1 was driven off the battlefield. Casualties rose to an unacceptable level and the aircraft was withdrawn due to those excessive casualties. The actual replacement as the A-37 Dragonfly which had the jet power to get in fast and more importantly get away fast. The A-37 was a temporary fix though and it too was becoming too vulnerable for use by the time the Vietnam Was started to draw down.

Only... all those fancy new fast moving jets that were supposed to support the Army? They never did, they were too busy zooming around the battlefield playing tag with the enemy fast movers, because fast mover pilots all want to be aces and you don't get bragging rights for 'moving mud'. Or if they were available for support, you'd get one bombing run a day, maybe, before the fast mover ran out of gas and had to go back to base, then be pampered by the maintenance crews. Need a second bombing run because the first one missed, or there were more enemy? Tough luck!

That's the Army propaganda view. It doesn't hold up in reality. The problem was, and has always been, allocating aircraft to targets and locating those targets. The solution to that issue was the development of forward observation aircraft which could spot the targets and coach the jets in. That was fine, only the FACs were vulnerable to ground fire as well; the original Cessnas 0-1s were replaced by the O-2 and the OV-10 and that as replaced by the OA-37. Interestingly, the A-10 actually took over the FAC role for a while as the OA-10 (despite the difference in designation, the only difference between the A-10A and the OA-10 was tasking). The A-10 fleet doesn't do FAC work any more. I know the Marines use F/A-18Ds, I'll have to check what the USAF uses. These days, though, we tend to rely more on ground parties unless the environment is really permissive. For more details on the FAC, see Forward Air Control in Vietnam by Lt. Col. Ralph A Rowley.

So the Army used helicopter gunships as stopgap solutions, but they were too fragile, too slow, and too vulnerable to be *the* replacement for Skyraider.
That's not true. The introduction of gunships had nothing to do with the demise of the A-1. They originate from the airmobile operations trials in the early 1960s and were intended to provide close support as troops disembarked from transport helicopters. The originally intended to be carried out by the Mohawk (a twin turboprop light attack and observation aircraft but that project was discontinued and the helicopters kept the job. The significant factor was to try and keep the support aircraft (whether fixed or rotary wing) together with the transport birds. The A-1 was still a Navy aircraft at the time and had nothing to do with it. See "Close Air Support in Vietnam" for the real story.

Cue the AH-56 Cheyenne. The Army were going to get themselves a helicopter that had the speed of a Spad, the endurance of a Spad, could carry ordnance all day long, and would be under their control, not the Air Force, so it wouldn't be swanning around at 30k feet playing tag with MiGs while the poor grunts needed support. The Air Force *freaked out*, the Cheyenne's performance levels were up to the low end of their beloved fighters, it was a seriously sexy flying platform, and threatened their budget since for years the Air Force had been using the budget monies allocated for moving mud to instead buy more and sexier fast movers to zoom around in.
Wrong again. The AH-56 was ditched because it was unreliable, over-complex and exceptionally expensive. It was a budget-breaker and its fundamental shortcomings couldn't be fixed.

Congress refused to kill the Cheyenne, because the Army had a bloody point, the Air Force had, under Key West, committed to providing as-needed ground support to the Army and was utterly failing at doing so. So the Air Force gritted their teeth and opened up the A-X program. Voila, the A-10 is born.
Again, wrong. A-X dated from the mid-1960s and was intended to be the replacement for the A-1. By the time it became available, Vietnam was winding down and the watchword was "No More Vietnams!" The A-X was a Vietnam environment system and stood neither economic nor political chances of survival. So, the program was recast as a tank destroyer and a replacement for the A-7.

Once the A-10 was coming into service, the Air Force promised the army that they'd buy massive numbers of them to guarantee the grunts on the ground would always have air support from BRRRRTTTT. So could the Army please cancel Cheyenne? The Army, being foolishly optimistic that the Air Force wouldn't try and screw them again, did so. And the Air Force promptly tried to withdraw the A-10 and replace them with... fast sexy fast movers like the F-16. 'They can carry bombs you know, look how accurate they are? Honest, we won't zoom around at 35k feet with them instead of supporting you with them!'
Wrong again. That simply is not true. I don't know where you got this stuff from but its completely wrong.

The Army completely refused to bite, a major motivator for the Apache program has been to keep an in-house support option that the Air Force knows full well can be upgraded to Cheyenne levels of performance (note, Boeing is as we speak developing an Apache upgrade that turns it into a compound helicopter like Cheyenne...) They've also howled at Congress every time the Air Force tries to again kill the A-10, because no grunt in their right mind trusts that the Air Force will ever fulfill that mission without it.

Actually the AH-64 was a cheaper, less-expensive and more reliable replacement for the AH-56. Again, it started life as a troop lift support system and became a tank-killer as the Vietnam-era missions faded away. The Army demands to keep the A-10 are basically blackmail to ensure that the Air Force maintains the CAS mission. If the Air Force had designated F-16 or F-35 units assigned to CAS, the Army would drop the A-10 like a shot. That may happen in time.

Your history lesson is good propaganda, but it is wrong on every salient point. I would you read the books I've been pointing you at and you'll get a better picture of what was really going on.
 
@Francis Urquhart that’s precisely why the AirLand Scorpion could be an A-10 replacement for the modern day. 24 SDBs with networked targeting far exceeds the kill probability of the rockets and 30mm of the A-10 against tanks, and it could engage from up to 45,000 feet...

Exactly! The A-10 belonged to the days when we counted the number of aircraft that we had to fly against a single target. These days we count the number of targets a single aircraft can take out per story. There's an interesting cyclic there by the way that I'll go into a bit later. Airland Scorpion is a good project; the only thing wrong with it is timing; its being pushed at a time when there is no money in the kitty.
 
Exactly! The A-10 belonged to the days when we counted the number of aircraft that we had to fly against a single target. These days we count the number of targets a single aircraft can take out per story. There's an interesting cyclic there by the way that I'll go into a bit later. Airland Scorpion is a good project; the only thing wrong with it is timing; its being pushed at a time when there is no money in the kitty.


Very affordable despite that; I bet we could pay for one for one replacement of the A-10 with the right calculations based on A-10 maintenance cost, which will just keep going up and up.
 
I wonder how hard it would be to restart production of Skyraiders, maybe with an upgraded powerplant and equipment for PGMs?
Impossible. We can't go back like that. All the sub-systems that were used have been out of production for 60 years and we'd end up designing a completely new aircraft. However, as our Captain-General has been pointing out, functionally the AirLand Scorpion is that completely new aircraft, a modern equivalent only its got all the connectivity it needs to function over a battlefield plus is economic to procure and run. So, the "other answer" to your question is "we have it, sitting in the wings. There's even a Plan B, the A-28 although that's a much weaker force.
 
Very affordable despite that; I bet we could pay for one for one replacement of the A-10 with the right calculations based on A-10 maintenance cost, which will just keep going up and up.
My guess would be more than one-for-one; that's rare in modern budgeting. I think we'd have the aircraft getting IOC now if we had the funding - ie if it wasn't being squandered on A-10s
 
I love Air Force fanboys who think the boys in blue can do no wrong and the Army is a bunch of clueless ninnies who don't know what they actually need or want.

Since your 'you are wrong' basically consists of Air Force propaganda, and ignores the actual Congressional testimony during the budget processes, the history of the Air Forces attempt to kill the A-10 (they've been trying since the AH-56 was cancelled, the ink wasn't dry on the cancellation before they started trying to replace the A-10 with the F-16) and the reality on the ground that I have yet to speak with an Army person who trusts the Air Force any further than they could throw a B-36 when it comes to promises about CAS.

The first Air Farce attempt to kill A-10? Before it even started, they tried to kill the A-X requirement in the cradle on the grounds that the magic F-111 could do the job better. Then kept it as something to wave at Congress in order to justify F-X 'not a pound for air-to-ground' but HONEST we'll develop a real attack bird for the Army!

Then along comes AH-56. Contrary to your claims, the reliability issues were well within norms for prototypes, especially prototype rotorcraft. Testing was progressing quite well and the Cheyenne fully met the requirements set down for it. The Air Force actually tried to take over the project on the grounds that it was an 'aircraft' that only they should have, and openly said that they only wanted to do so in order to cancel it. Congress baulked, the program continued, and the Air Force was forced to actually go with A-X, which until then had been a purely paper project with no hardware and no contracts. And before you try to defend the sainted Air Farce, look into the C-27J program. Army needed a replacement for the Sherpa, Air Force refused to even consider it, Army buys aircraft and operates them in the role, Air Farce gets shirty and demands that they be transferred to the Air Farce, and then promptly gets rid of them under the claim that 'we have an excess of transports!', leaving the Army high and dry in the role.

And oddly, there have been plenty of instances of A-10's operating in contested airspace, taking significant damage... and making it home. I can already hear the cries that now it's somehow different because new systems are magically capable of gibbing A-10's now, but the Air Forces fancy fast movers will be PERFECTLY FINE! Because! Trust us!
 
If the key virtues of close support are loiter time and bomb-hauling, doesn't that mean the ideal CAS aircraft is the B-52 and then the B-21?
 
I love Air Force fanboys who think the boys in blue can do no wrong and the Army is a bunch of clueless ninnies who don't know what they actually need or want.

Since your 'you are wrong' basically consists of Air Force propaganda, and ignores the actual Congressional testimony during the budget processes, the history of the Air Forces attempt to kill the A-10 (they've been trying since the AH-56 was cancelled, the ink wasn't dry on the cancellation before they started trying to replace the A-10 with the F-16) and the reality on the ground that I have yet to speak with an Army person who trusts the Air Force any further than they could throw a B-36 when it comes to promises about CAS.

The first Air Farce attempt to kill A-10? Before it even started, they tried to kill the A-X requirement in the cradle on the grounds that the magic F-111 could do the job better. Then kept it as something to wave at Congress in order to justify F-X 'not a pound for air-to-ground' but HONEST we'll develop a real attack bird for the Army!

Then along comes AH-56. Contrary to your claims, the reliability issues were well within norms for prototypes, especially prototype rotorcraft. Testing was progressing quite well and the Cheyenne fully met the requirements set down for it. The Air Force actually tried to take over the project on the grounds that it was an 'aircraft' that only they should have, and openly said that they only wanted to do so in order to cancel it. Congress baulked, the program continued, and the Air Force was forced to actually go with A-X, which until then had been a purely paper project with no hardware and no contracts. And before you try to defend the sainted Air Farce, look into the C-27J program. Army needed a replacement for the Sherpa, Air Force refused to even consider it, Army buys aircraft and operates them in the role, Air Farce gets shirty and demands that they be transferred to the Air Farce, and then promptly gets rid of them under the claim that 'we have an excess of transports!', leaving the Army high and dry in the role.

And oddly, there have been plenty of instances of A-10's operating in contested airspace, taking significant damage... and making it home. I can already hear the cries that now it's somehow different because new systems are magically capable of gibbing A-10's now, but the Air Forces fancy fast movers will be PERFECTLY FINE! Because! Trust us!
I have a solution to everyone's problem here. Force the US Air Force to make Flight Warrant Officers and have them as A-10 Pilots. The USAF is the only and I mean only branch of the Armed Forces that don't have Warrant Officers and Chief Warrant Officers. I say we fix that by forcing them to promote some to become A-10 Pilots.
 
My favorite T-34-85 story comes from Ukraine and features a T-34-85 that was part of a war memorial. In an anti-government riot, some of the rioters found it, put oil in the engine and added the other fluids, started it up and waddled off down the street to do combat with the riot police. Unfortunately, while they were good mechanics, they were poor tankists and outran their infantry support. They also left the hatches open and the riot police simply tossed tear gas grenades inside. So, working-condition T-34s still hanging around can't be discounted.
You are mixing it with protests in Budapest, a decade ago. And the funniest part is that the guy just entered the tank and started it up, as it was originaly driven to the place where it was exhibited and they never bothered to drain the fuel tank. I heard they took out spark plugs and some cables out of the engine, once they returned it to exhibiton place.



It is true though that during Donbass war the rebels used several tanks from memorials (T-34/85, IS-2, SU-85/100), but since their guns were disabled they were used as glorified self propelled machinegun nests and were removed from use once better stuff from Russian depots was avaible.

We know of one deal where an Army had some T-34-85s in a depot and the Russians bought them in a 1-for-1 exchange for T-72B3s.
From Laos, but they were only part of a payment for the new tanks. Russia in general is very flexible when it cames to payment, willing to take payments in raw materials, like in the their sale of Su-30s to Indonesia.

Force the US Air Force to make Flight Warrant Officers
Only way to force USAF to do this is if you put the gun to the head of top brass and you would probably have to really execute a few of them to make it happen. USAF has considerable shortage of pilots and pilot WOs were proposed as solution, but it was refused with extreme prejudice.
 
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I love Air Force fanboys who think the boys in blue can do no wrong and the Army is a bunch of clueless ninnies who don't know what they actually need or want.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Since your 'you are wrong' basically consists of Air Force propaganda, and ignores the actual Congressional testimony during the budget processes, the history of the Air Forces attempt to kill the A-10 (they've been trying since the AH-56 was cancelled, the ink wasn't dry on the cancellation before they started trying to replace the A-10 with the F-16) and the reality on the ground that I have yet to speak with an Army person who trusts the Air Force any further than they could throw a B-36 when it comes to promises about CAS.
Firstly, I don't work for the Air Force, I work for the DOD as a whole. And I have seen, in detail, the budget process/technical develop papers of the era and they don't support what you are saying. In fact, I work with budget and program data every day. The whole late-60s and early-70s era is a very complex one for a variety of economic, technical and political reasons. There was a major change in aircraft technology happening, some aspects of which worked, some did not and some might have worked but it would cost to much to cure the basic problems. AH-56 fell into the latter category. The political environment for new defense programs was made toxic from about 1968 onwards and there was a desperate fight to get any defense program funded. If said program had a hint of being Vietnam-related it was dead on arrival. If it would cost a lot of money, it was dead on arrival. If it developed any technical problems, it was dead on arrival. Look back at that era and its a miracle any defense program survived, let alone one that had multiple strikes against it.

The first Air Farce attempt to kill A-10? Before it even started, they tried to kill the A-X requirement in the cradle on the grounds that the magic F-111 could do the job better.
No, they didn't. It might surprise you to learn that the Air Force disliked the whole concept behind the F-111 themselves and viewed with favor efforts to develop alternatives to it. Once McNamara had left DoD, everybody knew future developments of the F-111 weren't going to happen.

By the way, it wasn't the F-111 that was pushed to fill the A-1 replacement requirement, it was the A-7. That was pushed heavily by McNamara who wanted to cancel any new-design A-X program primarily because it could be presented as a joint program with the Navy. Remember the lists of negatives for programs? Well, "joint program" was one of the few positive things that were around back then. The Air Force didn't really want to go the A-7 route because they knew McNamara would use it to kill A-X and they wanted an aircraft built to their requirements. McNamara got his way though, the Air Force ended up buying A-7s to replace the B-57, A-1 and F-100. It was a really nice little bird too. Very smooth and on cost/on-schedule development.

Then kept it as something to wave at Congress in order to justify F-X 'not a pound for air-to-ground' but HONEST we'll develop a real attack bird for the Army!
Wrong (again). It was the A-7 that was waved as the Air Forces CAS aircraft and to be fair it was very good at it. The Air Force actually saved the A-X program by recasting it as a tank destroyer for the Fulda Gap. Just as the Army saved their advanced attack helicopter (by the way the main factor that made the Army swing the cancellation axe was the fact it was single-engined.
One of the main lessons that the Army saw as coming out of Vietnam was that helicopters had to be twin-engined. They'd lost too many UH-1s by having single hits taking out their only engine. Lockheed actually did design a twin-engined AH-56 but the changes were so great that it was an entirely new aircraft.

Along comes AH-56. Contrary to your claims, the reliability issues were well within norms for prototypes, especially prototype rotorcraft. Testing was progressing quite well and the Cheyenne fully met the requirements set down for it.
No, it didn't. It had serious flight control issues and it was behind the curve with regard to Army requirements. Fixing the problems with it would take a long time and cost a lot of money. That killed the program in Congress. The Army didn't want it any more because it had a single engine, couldn't fly the mission profiles they wanted and looked like a Vietnam era bird. They wanted the AH-64 which would cost less and fit the developing Army operational concepts. Note how all the AH-64 publicity shots showed it with a battery of anti-tank missiles?

The Air Force actually tried to take over the project on the grounds that it was an 'aircraft' that only they should have, and openly said that they only wanted to do so in order to cancel it.
That is true, not very edifying I agree but it merely reflected a consensus that AH-56 was not the way people wanted to go. By the time they came out with that, everybody was looking for ways to cancel AH-56 without exposing the DOD to massive cancellation fees.

Congress baulked, the program continued, and the Air Force was forced to actually go with A-X, which until then had been a purely paper project with no hardware and no contracts.
Congress didn't balk at anything; they wanted that program dead. The Air Force wanted the Northrop A-9 which reflected their ideas on how a close-support aircraft should look. The Russians agreed, because the stole the design and copied it as the Su-25. Originally the Republic design (which became the A-10) was a stalking horse that was intended to keep Northrop honest (not an easy task by the way). Only, the Republic design turned out to be a lot cheaper, would provide jobs in an area that badly needed them and had several neat design featured. The rear-mounted engines was one, the non-handed structures in the fuselage and tail were another. Fairchild-Republic were politically slick in a way Northrop wasn't. They went around Congress and pointed out how many jobs the A-10 would bring to each constituency. It's standard practice now but they were the first people to do it.

And before you try to defend the sainted Air Farce, look into the C-27J program. Army needed a replacement for the Sherpa, Air Force refused to even consider it, Army buys aircraft and operates them in the role, Air Farce gets shirty and demands that they be transferred to the Air Farce, and then promptly gets rid of them under the claim that 'we have an excess of transports!', leaving the Army high and dry in the role.
I don;t regard the Air Force as being sainted any more than I do the Army or the Navy (the Marines are possibly a different matter). I happen to know the C-27 program very well. The C-27J was selected as a multi-service transport aircraft intended to serve in the Air National Guard, the US Army, the US Coastguard and SOCOM. In 2009 the Army aircraft were indeed transferred to the ANG, a deal that was regarded as a bit ripe at the time but it offered potential savings and the Obama administration wanted to make defense cuts wherever it could. What killed the C-27 though was Congress. They kept adding C-130Js to the budget, five or six a year, and the money had to come from somewhere. C-27 was an obvious target and that's where the funding for the extra C-130s came from. The C-27s went to the boneyard from whence they emerged as Coastguard and SOCOM aircraft. There are suggestions that the whole thing was a set-up that allowed the Coastguard (in particular) and SOCOM to get aircraft they couldn't otherwise afford. Personally I doubt that although SOCOM (in particular) does a lot of really devious things now and then. But that's their job description after all.

And oddly, there have been plenty of instances of A-10's operating in contested airspace, taking significant damage... and making it home.
Twenty five years ago, against air defense systems that are two generations out of date and they were operating in a benign environment. They still got shot to shit. Thank you for proving my point.

I can already hear the cries that now it's somehow different because new systems are magically capable of gibbing A-10's now, but the Air Forces fancy fast movers will be PERFECTLY FINE! Because! Trust us!

There's nothing magic about it. Data processing, target motion analysis, data transfer and high-precision guidance systems are all standard tools these days. Nobody will be all right in that environment, the only real cure is to stay out of it. Which is what modern CAS aircraft do. The reason to go in low was to gain accuracy. Now, precision guidance, whether integral with the aircraft or provided by FAC parties, give the accuracy without the same level of risk.

By the way, you started your post by throwing the insult 'fanboi" around. The only person behaving like a fanboi here is you. I suggest you take a deep breath, calm down and think about things rationally.
 
You are mixing it with protests in Budapest, a decade ago. And the funniest part is that the guy just entered the tank and started it up, as it was originaly driven to the place where it was exhibited and they never bothered to drain the fuel tank. I heard they took out spark plugs and some cables out of the engine, once they returned it to exhibiton place.
I'm not sure it is the same case; some of the details are a bit different. I got the story from Nick Moran and he is usually regarded as an extremely reliable source. Its possible he got mixed up on locations though. You must admit, its a hell of a tribute to Russian diesels.

It is true though that during Donbass war the rebels used several tanks from memorials (T-34/85, IS-2, SU-85/100), but since their guns were disabled they were used as glorified self propelled machinegun nests and were removed from use once better stuff from Russian depots was available.
If one has a tank, even a degunned one and the other side has no anti-tank weapons except Scharanskas, its a big advantage. I hope the vehicles were returned after they were replaced . . . As always, thank you for that bit of extra information. I find your contributions very valuable and am grateful for them.

From Laos, but they were only part of a payment for the new tanks. Russia in general is very flexible when it cames to payment, willing to take payments in raw materials, like in the their sale of Su-30s to Indonesia.
Oh yes. There's actually a whole market sub-sector devoted to getting rid of "stuff" that the Russians have accepted as payment for military equipment. In my office we actually track arms deals around the world and we noticed how the Russians are starting to buy up old but historically-significant equipment. I think they got goodies from Mongolia and Bulgaria as well. The Holy Grail is the T-34-76 in original condition. There's a company in Russia (maybe more than one) that specializes in salvaging tanks from rivers and restoring them. Apparently, go somewhere the Russian Army did an assault river crossing and there will be submerged tanks. There was a TV program here that showed the salvage and reconstruction of a KV-1. Western restorers would look a bit questioningly at the methods used (they replace original material with non-authentic parts for example) but they do bring a lot of vehicles back from the dead.

Only way to force USAF to do this is if you put the gun to the head of top brass and you would probably have to really execute a few of them to make it happen. USAF has considerable shortage of pilots and pilot WOs were proposed as solution, but it was refused with extreme prejudice.

Not surprising, the requirement that officers have degrees goes back to before WW2. Friend of mine joined up in 1941 and already had a pilot's license. He was allowed in because he had two years college but when the war ended, the first thing the Army Air Force made him do was go back to university and finish his degree.

On the other hand, the USAF is the only service where the enlisted men send the officers out to die.
 
If the key virtues of close support are loiter time and bomb-hauling, doesn't that mean the ideal CAS aircraft is the B-52 and then the B-21?
This is a good argument. The problem with the B-52 is that it was designed to salvo the conventional bombload and releasing single weapons is not that reliable. The B-21 may well fix that, too much is secret for us to know for sure.

One proposal for a CAS aircraft was built around the Navy's P-8 and picked up an idea first used by the Sunderland flying boats in WW2. Instead of a massive bomb bay, the proposal has a bomb room in the fuselage where the weapons are prepped. Then, they can be run out into the bomb bay and dropped from around 35,000 feet. The aircraft has all the connectivity one wants and the bomb-room concept allows the crew to check that the information in the bombs is correct.

Having said that, heavy bombers do have their advantages. There are some targets that just cry out for grid square removal (the Gaza Strip is one) and the mass drop of bombs from an aircraft (or four) that nobody can see or hear has a morale effect all of its own. We found in Afghanistan that the local forces we were supporting weren't that impressed by a 1,000lb PGM but were by 200+ of them from a formation of B-52s.
 
Not surprising, the requirement that officers have degrees goes back to before WW2. Friend of mine joined up in 1941 and already had a pilot's license. He was allowed in because he had two years college but when the war ended, the first thing the Army Air Force made him do was go back to university and finish his degree.

On the other hand, the USAF is the only service where the enlisted men send the officers out to die.
Having a Collegee Degree just to fly aircraft in the Air Forces sounds like the dumbest policy I have ever heard of. You don't need a College Degree to fly a freaking passenger Airliner for a major carrier. Their pilot shortage is there own damn fault and need to drop that 4 year degree requirement and start making Warrant Officers. I think the President should tell the Brass either you make some Warrants or you will be replaced.

Edit: It seems some Major carriers do now. but most others just require a two year degree.
 
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Having a Collegee Degree just to fly aircraft in the Air Forces sounds like the dumbest policy I have ever heard of. You don't need a College Degree to fly a freaking passenger Airliner for a major carrier. Their pilot shortage is there own damn fault and need to drop that 4 year degree requirement and start making Warrant Officers. I think the President should tell the Brass either you make some Warrants or you will be replaced.
It comes from the time when a pilot was expected to be able to put a malfunctioning aircraft down in a field, diagnose what was wrong, fix it and take off. Try that with an F-22. Also, back then, all a high-school diploma proved was that the holder could read and write plus do elementary sums. The idea of a college degree was that it proved the bearer had a more sophisticated grasp on things that that. Again, everything has changed out of all recognition although I must say I wonder of a modern college degree helps anybody do anything.

"Other people do it" is a very poor argument but the degree requirement is very common around the world for intrepid birdmen. Even the Chinese People's Liberation Air Force has that requirement. I'd love to find out what the modern justification is but I can't get a straight answer from anybody. I suspect its one of those things that has just hung around, everybody has forgotten why and continues doing it because everybody else does.

Personally, I'd take in everybody who wants to fly and wash out the ones who can't. Even allowing for that though, the recruitment problem really is that not enough people want to join up. everybody right now has that problem
 
Funny thing is, I was Air Force and I am a big supporter of the A-10.
Doesn't surprise me; the A-10 always has had a staunch community built around it both inside and outside the Air Force. The problem is though that the defense budget is so stretched and after eight years of Obama, so underfunded that we have to be super-careful where we put our resources. However appealing the A-10 is, keeping it in service is just not a cost-effective use of those resources. We've mentioned the AiLand Scorpion; for the money we have squandered on keeping the A-10, we could have re-equipped all the CAS squadrons with that aircraft and had a much more effective force (technically and numerically) as a result
 
It comes from the time when a pilot was expected to be able to put a malfunctioning aircraft down in a field, diagnose what was wrong, fix it and take off. Try that with an F-22. Also, back then, all a high-school diploma proved was that the holder could read and write plus do elementary sums. The idea of a college degree was that it proved the bearer had a more sophisticated grasp on things that that. Again, everything has changed out of all recognition although I must say I wonder of a modern college degree helps anybody do anything.

"Other people do it" is a very poor argument but the degree requirement is very common around the world for intrepid birdmen. Even the Chinese People's Liberation Air Force has that requirement. I'd love to find out what the modern justification is but I can't get a straight answer from anybody. I suspect its one of those things that has just hung around, everybody has forgotten why and continues doing it because everybody else does.

Personally, I'd take in everybody who wants to fly and wash out the ones who can't. Even allowing for that though, the recruitment problem really is that not enough people want to join up. everybody right now has that problem
I remember back when Vietnam was ramping up the US Navy wanted to have all of the Riverine Boats Captained by a Officer in the grades between Ensign and Lieutenant. Some forward thinking brass in the Navy said how about making most of them Captained by mostly High Ranking Enlisted men. At first the old guard balked at the idea. But as the war unfolded It was shown that Petty Officers could lead the boats very well and slowly more and more boats began to have all Enlisted crews. Flash forward to my day you had an all Enlisted Boat Unit with one officer their only as a paper pushing in command type. The Lieutenant only gave out the weekly orders and that was it. Sometimes progress can be made if people are willing to take the chance.
 
From this discussion there seems to be a basic institutional problem with the USAF not really being committed to working together with the other branches of the military.
 
From this discussion there seems to be a basic institutional problem with the USAF not really being committed to working together with the other branches of the military.
This is very true but it was not restricted to the USAF. Basically none of the three services could get the others to cooperate with them. This tended to be more obvious with the Air Force because they had the highest visibility. The only people who weren't affected were the Marines, partly because they already had elements of all three services in their structure and partly because everybody else was scared of them. This has changed a lot in the last ten years, mostly as a legacy of Rumsfeld which was about the only he thing he did that worked.

Back in 2001, being given a "Joint" posting was the kiss of death for one's military career - a bit like being given a free transfer from a football team. It was a very overt message that one's services were no longer required. However, the system was changed so that every officer had to punch his ticket in a joint post at regular intervals - starting at a relatively junior rank. The result of that was that every officer in each service grew up with "Purple" (ie joint) operations being the norm rather than the exception Purple postings also became the step upwards rather than the door out. This has seeped into US military structure and a lot of the old attitudes have died out. Give it another ten years and they'll be gone completely.

One effect of that was that the various services saw how the others did things and, much more importantly why they did them that way. Going back to Vietnam, one of the things that drove the Air Force mad was that the Navy had either hordes of aircraft available or none. Nothing in between. When purple became the norm, the Air Force realized why. The Navy carriers (right up to the Ford) are designed to launch alpha-strikes, that is, massive blows that were intended to be aimed at opposition naval assets and overwhelm them. So, the carriers were designed with an operational cycle designed to support relatively infrequent massive strikes. Not a trickle of strikes that kept a small number of aircraft constantly available. The problems this caused, by the way, are well-described in "Fighters over the Fleet" by Norman Friedman. The Ford class carriers have been redesigned so they can support a constant stream of operations rather than being just restricted to alpha strikes.

The Army looked at how the Marines did close support and came to the conclusion that the Army were some thirty years behind the times. That's changing now as well. We have a lot to be grateful for from the purple revolution.
 
Now what about drones? Remote-controlled or fully-autonomous? Who gets to play with them?
 

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