Immigration and multiculturalism news

Terthna

Professional Lurker
There are certainly more innocents in American prisons just because there are so many people in American prisons. But even if the Japanese justice system is better than the American one at identifying the correct suspects, I've heard that by the time they get to prosecuting you they are so confident they're right that they will absolutely railroad innocent people to maintain that 99%, and have done so in pretty egregious cases whose details I do not recall.
It has to do with the fact that they're a collectivist culture, rather than an individualist one such as what exists throughout most western countries. In their minds the stability of society as a whole, and the systems built to ensure said stability, are more important than the question of whether or not someone is actually guilty of what they're being accused of; and if someone dares to try and assert their innocence, that just makes them a troublemaker of a different sort. In short, they believe it's better that one innocent person suffers, than ten guilty people go free.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
It has to do with the fact that they're a collectivist culture, rather than an individualist one such as what exists throughout most western countries. In their minds the stability of society as a whole, and the systems built to ensure said stability, are more important than the question of whether or not someone is actually guilty of what they're being accused of; and if someone dares to try and assert their innocence, that just makes them a troublemaker of a different sort. In short, they believe it's better that one innocent person suffers, than ten guilty people go free.
We are starting to see this in western culture too.
It wasn't too long ago that the USA supreme court ruled that even though a person is innocent and was unjustly falsely convicted, he must remain in prison because he used up his appeals already.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
We are starting to see this in western culture too.
It wasn't too long ago that the USA supreme court ruled that even though a person is innocent and was unjustly falsely convicted, he must remain in prison because he used up his appeals already.
No, what we have building up here in the United States is more of a "it's better that only innocents suffer; while the guilty are free to do whatever they want, without fear of consequences" sort of thing.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
No, what we have building up here in the United States is more of a "it's better that only innocents suffer; while the guilty are free to do whatever they want, without fear of consequences" sort of thing.
True. they have been mass releasing criminals for a while now
 

King Arts

Well-known member
There are certainly more innocents in American prisons just because there are so many people in American prisons. But even if the Japanese justice system is better than the American one at identifying the correct suspects, I've heard that by the time they get to prosecuting you they are so confident they're right that they will absolutely railroad innocent people to maintain that 99%, and have done so in pretty egregious cases whose details I do not recall.
In America prosecutors also plays those sorts of games that send innocents to jail to maintain their convictions rate.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
We are starting to see this in western culture too.
It wasn't too long ago that the USA supreme court ruled that even though a person is innocent and was unjustly falsely convicted, he must remain in prison because he used up his appeals already.
I don't think that's a recent development. I remember hearing about courts ruling that actual innocence, even undisputed, is not a valid reason to overturn a verdict. I suppose it may make sense from the perspective of legalistic consistency (follow the process at all costs), and theoretically this is a big reason pardons exist (to override the legal outcome without having to get the legal process to change its outcome).
 

ATP

Well-known member
I don't think that's a recent development. I remember hearing about courts ruling that actual innocence, even undisputed, is not a valid reason to overturn a verdict. I suppose it may make sense from the perspective of legalistic consistency (follow the process at all costs), and theoretically this is a big reason pardons exist (to override the legal outcome without having to get the legal process to change its outcome).
Nothing new - dura lex,sed lex.Roman legacy,i quess.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
A fairly neutral and mainstream article about the massive scamming of western asylum systems.
It's also become a key loophole for economic migrants, who aren't under threat but want better working opportunities. Quirks in the law and an overwhelmed processing system nearly guarantee entry, at least for a time.
This is not a "Quirk" it is an intentional blatant exploit.
Literally anyone from any country can claim asylum over "I want to make more money in USA".
And by "make more money" they mean welfare
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
This is not a "Quirk" it is an intentional blatant exploit.
Literally anyone from any country can claim asylum over "I want to make more money in USA".
And by "make more money" they mean welfare
It is an exploit indeed, but an old one, and it was not tested and probably also recognized for decades, no new laws were made that enabled this. It's just old law interpreted tested in new woke courts and parliaments. If it's anyone's intention, it's theirs.
Theoretically they have to lie that this is not about money, but hey, it's not like it's easy to check or they are going to be punished more than for not lying.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
It is an exploit indeed, but an old one, and it was not tested and probably also recognized for decades, no new laws were made that enabled this. It's just old law interpreted tested in new woke courts and parliaments. If it's anyone's intention, it's theirs.
Theoretically they have to lie that this is not about money, but hey, it's not like it's easy to check or they are going to be punished more than for not lying.
In the US, the law wasn't reinterpreted. The same interpretation was used in the US, but it was designed for people to use it honestly. And for decades it worked, and was a huge help in defeating the USSR. We definitely want legitimate asylum seekers from communist countries who will grow up to hate communism. We need more of that, in fact.

The solution to it is actually to have new laws. A few major improvements? Instant denial of asylum if there's no ID. Currently, not having an ID is an advantage in the US system, which is all kinds of bad.

Second, ban any non-Mexican asylum seeker that came through Mexico, saying that they should request asylum from Mexico instead.

Third, the banning of funding to any organization that assists migrants in cheating the system. There's some legalese that would do this, but this stops the US funding NGOs that encourage migration, or more importantly, stops those NGOs from doing this stuff lest they lose funding.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
In the US, the law wasn't reinterpreted. The same interpretation was used in the US, but it was designed for people to use it honestly.
Well that seems to be a kind of interpretation... No laws say the asylum claimants have to be taken at their word and be assumed to be honest. The dreaded elasticity of "muh human rights" comes into this.
And for decades it worked, and was a huge help in defeating the USSR. We definitely want legitimate asylum seekers from communist countries who will grow up to hate communism. We need more of that, in fact.
It worked because the kind of places you wanted to take asylum seekers from were in fact keeping their populations in open air prison, so those who could get out had to be unusually clever or lucky dissidents, filtering out any kind of qualitative or quantitative problem quite effectively. Castro tried to fuck with it a bit with sending criminals and crazy people, but he didn't have the right scale for it.
Meanwhile the third world was under heavy influence of either colonial powers or Soviets, so either way either fuckery would not be tolerated, or open air prison strategy would be copied.
However a scheme to try dump some tens of millions of dumb, sick, criminal and otherwise burdensome people through the border to western countries just because fuck you that's why wasn't something Soviets were willing to do, possibly also their need to maintain face in cold war politics which would make dumping hordes of miserable people out of "communist paradise" to "capitalist exploiters" look very ideologically inconvenient - while modern third world shitholes have no such considerations at all.
The solution to it is actually to have new laws. A few major improvements? Instant denial of asylum if there's no ID. Currently, not having an ID is an advantage in the US system, which is all kinds of bad.
The bleeding hearts will complain that some lose documents so on human rights grounds they can't be discriminated.
Meanwhile since Merkel's Syria policy another problem has arisen - many shitholes have little to no document security features (as who would want those documents anyway), so migrants would get fakes cheaply if they have value as grounds for asylum.
Second, ban any non-Mexican asylum seeker that came through Mexico, saying that they should request asylum from Mexico instead.
Again, many tried, bleeding hearts always sabotage that, while transitory countries like Mexico also red tape pushbacks of such migrants.
Third, the banning of funding to any organization that assists migrants in cheating the system. There's some legalese that would do this, but this stops the US funding NGOs that encourage migration, or more importantly, stops those NGOs from doing this stuff lest they lose funding.
That would have to go as far as arresting either their members or supporters and seizing their accounts as with normal criminal organizations, as it's often private or "private" funding. The legal, political and PR mess around it would be immense.
European story of the rescue ship NGOs should be telling - they got a lot of political and legal cover from the left controlled institutions and still function despite some of them getting outright caught coordinating their activities with foreign criminals.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
Well that seems to be a kind of interpretation... No laws say the asylum claimants have to be taken at their word and be assumed to be honest. The dreaded elasticity of "muh human rights" comes into this.
Again, you don't seem to understand US law at all. Them being taken at their word for the first hearing is a standard process for all civil litigation. Random claims of 'Human Rights' don't even matter in the US legal system either, you need to be explicit about where a right comes from the constitution/law.

There's a process, the same process that always happens. For the initial hearing, you assume honesty, later hearings are designed to kick out bad actors. Why do you assume honesty? Because frequently you can shortcircuit everything and any analysis by going "Even if everything you say is true, no asylum. Goodbye." The issue is those later hearings happen too far later.

No reinterpretation was done at all.

However a scheme to try dump some tens of millions of dumb, sick, criminal and otherwise burdensome people through the border to western countries just because fuck you that's why wasn't something Soviets were willing to do, possibly also their need to maintain face in cold war politics which would make dumping hordes of miserable people out of "communist paradise" to "capitalist exploiters" look very ideologically inconvenient - while modern third world shitholes have no such considerations at all.
Note, it's not really a scheme: there's little to no central organization behind it. It's a mass aligning of incentives. That's far worse, btw. That's how the long march through the institutions happened: aligned incentives, no organization. It's a hard thing to fight.

That would have to go as far as arresting either their members or supporters and seizing their accounts as with normal criminal organizations, as it's often private or "private" funding. The legal, political and PR mess around it would be immense.
No, it absolutely wouldn't have to go that far for the US. Simply stopping funding from the US government would be enough to bankrupt a lot of NGOs, so they would have to change tacks and what they do. It's about changing incentives.
The bleeding hearts will complain that some lose documents so on human rights grounds they can't be discriminated.
Meanwhile since Merkel's Syria policy another problem has arisen - many shitholes have little to no document security features (as who would want those documents anyway), so migrants would get fakes cheaply if they have value as grounds for asylum.
Forged documents are far better than what's happening now with no documents. Basically, requiring forged documents raises the price of entry to the US. The goal isn't to stop illegal immigration, but to raise its price high enough that it becomes a small thing. Again, it's about changing incentives. The goal, and progress for the US on immigration, looks like increasing the cost for a person to travel from venezuela or wherever into the US.

Again, many tried, bleeding hearts always sabotage that, while transitory countries like Mexico also red tape pushbacks of such migrants.
Countries can be bribed/threatened with US foreign aid. Election wise, there are frequently other priorities. Trump has one of the clearest attacks on illegal migration there is right now, and would come in with a fair bit of support.
 
Last edited:

DarthOne

☦️
Police Scotland 'Can't Cope' With Flood of Hate Speech Reports as 8,000 Flood in During First Week of Draconian Law


Police Scotland has been overwhelmed by a flood of reports under the recently implemented draconian speech restrictions, with approximately 8,000 reports in the first week, alone, surpassing the annual total for hate crimes in general of any other year.

Law enforcement in Scotland has claimed that it "can't cope" with the staggering number of reports flooding into police stations after the controversial Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 came into force last Monday, criminalising the opaquely-worded "stirring up hatred" towards protected groups, such as the so-called LGBTQ2AIS community, among others.

According to initial estimates, Police Scotland received around 8,000 complaints under the law in the first seven days of its implementation, which according to analysis by The Telegraph, would surpass the total number of crimes reported annually (416,000) if the trends continue.

Only 8,000? Seems low. We gotta get those numbers up! :p
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
Again, you don't seem to understand US law at all. Them being taken at their word for the first hearing is a standard process for all civil litigation. Random claims of 'Human Rights' don't even matter in the US legal system either, you need to be explicit about where a right comes from the constitution/law.

There's a process, the same process that always happens. For the initial hearing, you assume honesty, later hearings are designed to kick out bad actors. Why do you assume honesty? Because frequently you can shortcircuit everything and any analysis by going "Even if everything you say is true, no asylum. Goodbye." The issue is those later hearings happen too far later.

No reinterpretation was done at all. That's the issue.


Note, it's not really a scheme: there's little to no central organization behind it. It's a mass aligning of incentives.


No, it absolutely wouldn't have to go that far for the US. Simply stopping funding from the US government would be enough to bankrupt a lot of NGOs, so they would have to change tacks and what they do. It's about changing incentives.

Forged documents are far better than what's happening now with no documents. Basically, requiring forged documents raises the price of entry to the US. The goal isn't to stop illegal immigration, but to raise its price high enough that it becomes a small thing.


Countries can be bribed/threatened with US foreign aid. Election wise, there are frequently other priorities. Trump has one of the clearest attacks on illegal migration there is right now, and would come in with a fair bit of support.
MODDDDD FIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT



ITS ON!

MOD FIGHT!

MOD FIGHT IS ON EVERYBODY, SHIT IS GOING DOWN!
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
Police Scotland 'Can't Cope' With Flood of Hate Speech Reports as 8,000 Flood in During First Week of Draconian Law




Only 8,000? Seems low. We gotta get those numbers up! :p
How sad I'll play the Scottish police a sad song on the worlds smallest violin.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Again, you don't seem to understand US law at all. Them being taken at their word for the first hearing is a standard process for all civil litigation. Random claims of 'Human Rights' don't even matter in the US legal system either, you need to be explicit about where a right comes from the constitution/law.
There is no shortage of activist lawyers willing to take these cases and bullshit plenty.
The problem is that by the process they get a "foot in the door" so that they get years to either get better arguments for their stay or disappear into the overloaded bureaucracy and stay for years before they get forcibly removed even if their case is ultimately doomed to that.
There's a process, the same process that always happens. For the initial hearing, you assume honesty, later hearings are designed to kick out bad actors. Why do you assume honesty? Because frequently you can shortcircuit everything and any analysis by going "Even if everything you say is true, no asylum. Goodbye." The issue is those later hearings happen too far later.

No reinterpretation was done at all.
It's the same conventions that apply in Europe.
And a lot of things did change functionally, for one not detaining asylum claiming illegals and releasing them with a distant court date would be unthinkable few decades ago.
And such changes are in one way or another related to "muh human rights" arguments.
Note, it's not really a scheme: there's little to no central organization behind it. It's a mass aligning of incentives. That's far worse, btw. That's how the long march through the institutions happened: aligned incentives, no organization. It's a hard thing to fight.
No central organization, but a certain political ideology bent on enabling this no matter what, and for the migrant side it's economic self interest.
No, it absolutely wouldn't have to go that far for the US. Simply stopping funding from the US government would be enough to bankrupt a lot of NGOs, so they would have to change tacks and what they do. It's about changing incentives.
Delusional wishful thinking, if it was mostly government it would be easy to starve the hydra.
This is one of big such NGOs, most of its funding is not government, at least not directly.
And here's an interview with one of Europe's problem NGOs talking about funding:
Is funding one of the NGO's biggest problems?


On the contrary, it's really easy. In our first week in Lesbos we were interviewed by the BBC. One man recommended setting up an NGO, as that way they could not throw us out. We set up a website, crowdfunding... A friend set up a website for us with PayPal and in 24 hours money had come in from all over Silicon Valley. In next to no time we had 50,000 euros. We received support from the businesswoman Amy Rao, who is a close friend of Hillary Clinton and the widow of actor Robin Williams. I sent a video to Toms Molina, who is from Badalona, and it was shown on the TN Migdia news bulletin, I made some statements to the New York Times criticising Frontex and the EU after a boat sank, and we ended up on El Intermedio, which made us known in Spain. We got some 130,000 euros in donations.
Forged documents are far better than what's happening now with no documents. Basically, requiring forged documents raises the price of entry to the US. The goal isn't to stop illegal immigration, but to raise its price high enough that it becomes a small thing. Again, it's about changing incentives. The goal, and progress for the US on immigration, looks like increasing the cost for a person to travel from venezuela or wherever into the US.
It's pennies on the dollar, adds disproportionate costs and delays on the other side to find and legally prove the fakes, for the "huge" raise in price measuring few hundreds of dollars (the criminal smuggling facilitators charge 1-2 orders of magnitude more).
Countries can be bribed/threatened with US foreign aid. Election wise, there are frequently other priorities. Trump has one of the clearest attacks on illegal migration there is right now, and would come in with a fair bit of support.
Can be, but few are willing and able to do it, and some countries are just simply uncooperative for other hostility reasons.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
There is no shortage of activist lawyers willing to take these cases and bullshit plenty.
The problem is that by the process they get a "foot in the door" so that they get years to either get better arguments for their stay or disappear into the overloaded bureaucracy and stay for years before they get forcibly removed even if their case is ultimately doomed to that.
Yes. But that's not because of any reinterpretation of a law. It's that a system is being tested by an out of context problem. Please don't opine on US law, you keep shouting how little of it you know every time you do so. It would be like me shouting about Polish law.

Delusional wishful thinking, if it was mostly government it would be easy to starve the hydra.
This is one of big such NGOs, most of its funding is not government, at least not directly.
And here's an interview with one of Europe's problem NGOs talking about funding:
The LIRS literally works with the US government. It's the first sentence of the link you gave. Thanks for proving my point?

It's pennies on the dollar, adds disproportionate costs and delays on the other side to find and legally prove the fakes, for the "huge" raise in price measuring few hundreds of dollars (the criminal smuggling facilitators charge 1-2 orders of magnitude more).
It's not just the cash, it's the need for contacts, etc. This is how illegal immigration is actually fought: make it financially infeasible. It's not the only thing needed to do, but it would be a huge help.

Can be, but few are willing and able to do it, and some countries are just simply uncooperative for other hostility reasons.
Trump would be willing. He got the remain in Mexico policy done last time, he can do it again.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top