In Defense of Imperium of Man

[Aldarion]

In Defense of Imperium of Man

Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40 000) is often seen as a fascist, totalitarian state with absolutely no redeeming qualities other than “keeps humanity alive” – a hideous amalgman of N…

fantasyview.wordpress.com

Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40 000) is often seen as a fascist, totalitarian state with absolutely no redeeming qualities other than "keeps humanity alive" – a hideous amalgman of Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, North Korea, European Union, Imperial Japan, Roman Empire, Byzantine era of Roman Empire and George Orwell's 1984. It is genocidal, xenophobic, amoral, militaristic, theocratic, paranoid, dystopian, totalitarian, oligarchical, bureocratic police state. But is that so? Shortest answer is "depends on the author". Some will go "grimdark to the floor", while others (such as Sandy Mitchell) will show humane side of Imperium. So who is correct?

Most likely answer is: they all are.

Read More

 

[ATP]

In Defense of Imperium of Man

Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40 000) is often seen as a fascist, totalitarian state with absolutely no redeeming qualities other than “keeps humanity alive” – a hideous amalgman of N…

fantasyview.wordpress.com

Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40 000) is often seen as a fascist, totalitarian state with absolutely no redeeming qualities other than "keeps humanity alive" – a hideous amalgman of Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, North Korea, European Union, Imperial Japan, Roman Empire, Byzantine era of Roman Empire and George Orwell's 1984. It is genocidal, xenophobic, amoral, militaristic, theocratic, paranoid, dystopian, totalitarian, oligarchical, bureocratic police state. But is that so? Shortest answer is "depends on the author". Some will go "grimdark to the floor", while others (such as Sandy Mitchell) will show humane side of Imperium. So who is correct?

Most likely answer is: they all are.

Read More

Most important thing - WH40 is tabletop game with cool looking figurines and rules which made them fight and win in melee,when all sides had lasers or other ranged weapons.

That game was turned into sometching bigger,and ONLY THEN GW started to try find answer why dudes with lasers fight in melee.As a result,we have funny theories,which could not explain anytching.

Becouse it is impossible to explain why dudes with lasers must fight in melee.

So,do not defend IoM,or any other faction in WH40 - they are inlogical,becouse they must be inlogical.

Only rules there are - fight in melee,and end must be grim for everybody including winners.

 

[Aldarion]

Most important thing - WH40 is tabletop game with cool looking figurines and rules which made them fight and win in melee,when all sides had lasers or other ranged weapons.

That game was turned into sometching bigger,and ONLY THEN GW started to try find answer why dudes with lasers fight in melee.As a result,we have funny theories,which could not explain anytching.

Becouse it is impossible to explain why dudes with lasers must fight in melee.

So,do not defend IoM,or any other faction in WH40 - they are inlogical,becouse they must be inlogical.

Only rules there are - fight in melee,and end must be grim for everybody including winners.

I never even attempted to defend the logic of the game.

What I wanted to was defend the Imperium from SJW Tyrannids who would argue that it is somehow a "fascist" state.

 

[ATP]

I never even attempted to defend the logic of the game.

What I wanted to was defend the Imperium from SJW Tyrannids who would argue that it is somehow a "fascist" state.

And i simply stated,that,since entire WH40 thing started as silly game,there is no need to defend anything there,becouse everytching there must be silly.

So,there is no need to be angry about IoM,or defend its virtue,becouse only virtue IoM could have is fighting in glorious melee and ending in grim way.

 

[Aldarion]

And i simply stated,that,since entire WH40 thing started as silly game,there is no need to defend anything there,becouse everytching there must be silly.

So,there is no need to be angry about IoM,or defend its virtue,becouse only virtue IoM could have is fighting in glorious melee and ending in grim way.

It STARTED as a silly game, but it has lost the silliness long time ago. Now it is mostly grimdark and historical parody, though some traces of original comedy still remain.

But even comedy must be defended from SJW zomboids, lest they ruin it.

 

[Marduk]

In Defense of Imperium of Man

Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40 000) is often seen as a fascist, totalitarian state with absolutely no redeeming qualities other than “keeps humanity alive” – a hideous amalgman of N…

fantasyview.wordpress.com

Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40 000) is often seen as a fascist, totalitarian state with absolutely no redeeming qualities other than "keeps humanity alive" – a hideous amalgman of Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, North Korea, European Union, Imperial Japan, Roman Empire, Byzantine era of Roman Empire and George Orwell's 1984. It is genocidal, xenophobic, amoral, militaristic, theocratic, paranoid, dystopian, totalitarian, oligarchical, bureocratic police state. But is that so? Shortest answer is "depends on the author". Some will go "grimdark to the floor", while others (such as Sandy Mitchell) will show humane side of Imperium. So who is correct?

Most likely answer is: they all are.

Read More

If the Imperium even had the mere ability to be a fascist state (one with high degree control by a central government with an autocratic leader), it would be a very different setting.

What the leftists really mean is that the whole setting, and Imperium in particular, are covered in enemy colors through the lens of their ideology, by mere existence attacking their many sensibilities.
Basically, it's a setting where in many ways leftist ideals, particularly the current year incarnations of them do not work, and the setting is painfully clear about this.
There isn't much leftism, what is there doesn't work very well, and it's not a safe space culturally either.
And if you haven't noticed, future oriented fiction and non fiction are something which holds a special place in leftist's hearts. After all, leftism is supposed to be what history and civilization progress towards, and when they say that they are "on the right side of history", that's what they mean. James Lindsay's lectures bring it up sometimes, the future, fictional or not, and the idea of being judged by history, has an additional, ideological meaning to leftist idealists.
Meanwhile in 40k, it's the friggin 41st millenium, and socialist utopia is nowhere to be seen, bah, it's further away than it was in the mere 3rd millenium.
40k, by its shape alone, is a middle finger to leftist theory.

 

[ATP]

If the Imperium even had the mere ability to be a fascist state (one with high degree control by a central government with an autocratic leader), it would be a very different setting.

What the leftists really mean is that the whole setting, and Imperium in particular, are covered in enemy colors through the lens of their ideology, by mere existence attacking their many sensibilities.
Basically, it's a setting where in many ways leftist ideals, particularly the current year incarnations of them do not work, and the setting is painfully clear about this.
There isn't much leftism, what is there doesn't work very well, and it's not a safe space culturally either.
And if you haven't noticed, future oriented fiction and non fiction are something which holds a special place in leftist's hearts. After all, leftism is supposed to be what history and civilization progress towards, and when they say that they are "on the right side of history", that's what they mean. James Lindsay's lectures bring it up sometimes, the future, fictional or not, and the idea of being judged by history, has an additional, ideological meaning to leftist idealists.
Meanwhile in 40k, it's the friggin 41st millenium, and socialist utopia is nowhere to be seen, bah, it's further away than it was in the mere 3rd millenium.
40k, by its shape alone, is a middle finger to leftist theory.

And,it still is silly world when dudes with lasers still fight in melee.Just becouse.
Fact,that leftist accused silly game of being fascist is just another proof,that they are retarded.

 

[Marduk]

And,it still is silly world when dudes with lasers still fight in melee.Just becouse.
Fact,that leftist accused silly game of being fascist is just another proof,that they are retarded.

Dudes with guns today still have combat knives and sometimes even bayonets.
And dudes with guns today don't fight orks and giant space bugs that charge into melee guns be damned.

 

[Husky_Khan]

This is that moment when you read the article and at the end just shrug because you mostly agree with what was said.

 

[Aldarion]

If the Imperium even had the mere ability to be a fascist state (one with high degree control by a central government with an autocratic leader), it would be a very different setting.

What the leftists really mean is that the whole setting, and Imperium in particular, are covered in enemy colors through the lens of their ideology, by mere existence attacking their many sensibilities.
Basically, it's a setting where in many ways leftist ideals, particularly the current year incarnations of them do not work, and the setting is painfully clear about this.
There isn't much leftism, what is there doesn't work very well, and it's not a safe space culturally either.
And if you haven't noticed, future oriented fiction and non fiction are something which holds a special place in leftist's hearts. After all, leftism is supposed to be what history and civilization progress towards, and when they say that they are "on the right side of history", that's what they mean. James Lindsay's lectures bring it up sometimes, the future, fictional or not, and the idea of being judged by history, has an additional, ideological meaning to leftist idealists.
Meanwhile in 40k, it's the friggin 41st millenium, and socialist utopia is nowhere to be seen, bah, it's further away than it was in the mere 3rd millenium.
40k, by its shape alone, is a middle finger to leftist theory.

I know.

But converting the leftists is never really the goal of such articles, just as converting the rightists is never the goal of leftist articles.

Rather, the aim is to convince the centrists: the undecided, those who do not know much about the setting and have not yet formed their opinion of it.

 

[evilchumlee]

The Imperium is absolutely an awful, terrible, fascist state.

That shouldn't be so much defended as it is acknowledged. It's ok to root for a fictional terrible fascist state. They're actually at their best when the fact that they have no redeeming qualities is played up and embraced rather than try to dance around them to try to satisfy some peoples real-world political hard ons.

Let them be genocidal and terrible. That's what's fun about them.

 

[Marduk]

The Imperium is absolutely an awful, terrible, fascist state.

That shouldn't be so much defended as it is acknowledged. It's ok to root for a fictional terrible fascist state. They're actually at their best when the fact that they have no redeeming qualities is played up and embraced rather than try to dance around them to try to satisfy some peoples real-world political hard ons.

Let them be genocidal and terrible. That's what's fun about them.

You have completely missed the point - it's a rather poor example of a fascist state. It's more of a loose semi-feudal federation of various state and pseudo-state organizations, some of them possibly fascist (on the scale of some planetary governments), many not really.

 

[evilchumlee]

You have completely missed the point - it's a rather poor example of a fascist state. It's more of a loose semi-feudal federation of various state and pseudo-state organizations, some of them possibly fascist (on the scale of some planetary governments), many not really.

I did completely miss the point, and after actually skimming the article... I assumed it was going to be one of those "but actually, fascism is GOOD!" type things.

The article is right. The IoM is horrible... but... "fascist" is actually probably an incorrect term to use.

 

[ATP]

Dudes with guns today still have combat knives and sometimes even bayonets.
And dudes with guns today don't fight orks and giant space bugs that charge into melee guns be damned.

For silenty removing enemy guards.Not for fighting in glorious melee during open fight.
When,in WH40,you must fight in melee to win.

Tell me,when lately somebody win using melee? one or reasons,why we lost in 1939 was that part of money on army was wasted on bayonet fencing for all infrantry soldiers.
Yes,we win every melee with germans - but,so what?

 

[Marduk]

For silenty removing enemy guards.Not for fighting in glorious melee during open fight.
When,in WH40,you must fight in melee to win.

Tell me,when lately somebody win using melee? one or reasons,why we lost in 1939 was that part of money on army was wasted on bayonet fencing for all infrantry soldiers.
Yes,we win every melee with germans - but,so what?

If Germans were orks who can't shoot for shit and rush into melee it would be much wiser.
Sure, they will shoot some as they charge, but then its hard to shoot a rifle, nevermind reload, when a giant green brute with a big hunk of sharpened scrap is trying to whack you.
Orks are probably the most common opponents in 40k by a big margin, followed by crazy cultists for whom similar problems apply.
Also in 40k many factions wear armor that makes basic guns not very effective, and orks are inhumanly tough even without armor.

 

[ATP]

If Germans were orks who can't shoot for shit and rush into melee it would be much wiser.
Sure, they will shoot some as they charge, but then its hard to shoot a rifle, nevermind reload, when a giant green brute with a big hunk of sharpened scrap is trying to whack you.
Orks are probably the most common opponents in 40k by a big margin, followed by crazy cultists for whom similar problems apply.
Also in 40k many factions wear armor that makes basic guns not very effective, and orks are inhumanly tough even without armor.

Only 3% on Ukraine now die from rifles or HMG.All others - artillery,drones and sometime tanks.

Modern artillery with enough ammo and modern drones mean,that no ork would come alive into your trenches.
But,WH40 use artillery from WW2-Vietnam era.

 

[Aldarion]

For silenty removing enemy guards.Not for fighting in glorious melee during open fight.
When,in WH40,you must fight in melee to win.

Tell me,when lately somebody win using melee? one or reasons,why we lost in 1939 was that part of money on army was wasted on bayonet fencing for all infrantry soldiers.
Yes,we win every melee with germans - but,so what?

Uh...

British Soldiers in Afghanistan Counterattacked a Taliban Ambush with a Bayonet Charge

While it is common to hear stories of soldiers fixing bayonets in the days of yore, it might come as a surprise to hear about one using modern SA80 semi-automatic rifles.

www.military.com

Turns out, when fighting Orks, bayonets can be very effective.

Only 3% on Ukraine now die from rifles or HMG.All others - artillery,drones and sometime tanks.

Modern artillery with enough ammo and modern drones mean,that no ork would come alive into your trenches.
But,WH40 use artillery from WW2-Vietnam era.

WW2 - Vietnam era artillery can be very useful even today, if you know how to use it.

And Imperium also has self-propelled artillery:

Basilisk

"Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery wins wars." —Old saying amongst Astra Militarum artillery officers The Basilisk is the standard self-propelled artillery piece of the Astra Militarum in the 41st Millennium, and is also the most common artillery piece used by the Imperial...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Hydra

The Hydra, formally the Hydra Flak Tank, is the main mobile anti-air artillery piece of the Astra Militarum. It is produced on hundreds of Forge Worlds across the Imperium and is widely-used in nearly every regiment. The Hydra, like many other Imperial military vehicles, is based on the Chimera...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Manticore

The Manticore, also known as the Manticore Rocket Launcher, is a self-propelled rocket artillery piece used by the Astra Militarum that is based on a variant of the Chimera armoured personnel carrier chassis. A formidable weapon, the Manticore is capable of firing devastating barrages over...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

 

[Marduk]

Only 3% on Ukraine now die from rifles or HMG.All others - artillery,drones and sometime tanks.

Modern artillery with enough ammo and modern drones mean,that no ork would come alive into your trenches.
But,WH40 use artillery from WW2-Vietnam era.

Tau fight like this. AdMech and sometimes Astartes too. But Guard units are considered unusually well equipped if they have this kind of stuff.

 

[ATP]

Uh...

British Soldiers in Afghanistan Counterattacked a Taliban Ambush with a Bayonet Charge

While it is common to hear stories of soldiers fixing bayonets in the days of yore, it might come as a surprise to hear about one using modern SA80 semi-automatic rifles.

www.military.com

Turns out, when fighting Orks, bayonets can be very effective.

WW2 - Vietnam era artillery can be very useful even today, if you know how to use it.

And Imperium also has self-propelled artillery:

Basilisk

"Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery wins wars." —Old saying amongst Astra Militarum artillery officers The Basilisk is the standard self-propelled artillery piece of the Astra Militarum in the 41st Millennium, and is also the most common artillery piece used by the Imperial...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Hydra

The Hydra, formally the Hydra Flak Tank, is the main mobile anti-air artillery piece of the Astra Militarum. It is produced on hundreds of Forge Worlds across the Imperium and is widely-used in nearly every regiment. The Hydra, like many other Imperial military vehicles, is based on the Chimera...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Manticore

The Manticore, also known as the Manticore Rocket Launcher, is a self-propelled rocket artillery piece used by the Astra Militarum that is based on a variant of the Chimera armoured personnel carrier chassis. A formidable weapon, the Manticore is capable of firing devastating barrages over...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Basilish had 132mm gun,and open turret.WW2/Vietnam Era gun.
Even now,155mm modern SPG are better in everything.
If IoM come here now,even polish obsolate army would defeat IG,as long as we would have ammo for our 155mm SPG.

 

[Marduk]

Basilish had 132mm gun,and open turret.WW2/Vietnam Era gun.

Armageddon pattern Basilisk has closed turret like modern SPGs, Mars-Solar pattern is also enclosed, and many modern ones, especially the wheeled kind, have open mounts too. The gun is a bit smaller than modern ones, but Imperium may have different strategic needs, and also uses different explosives.

Even now,155mm modern SPG are better in everything.

Basilisks aren't the only artillery IG has, just the most common. For one they use massive siege mortars rare in modern armies, like Medusa and Colossus.

If IoM come here now,even polish obsolate army would defeat IG,as long as we would have ammo for our 155mm SPG.

But they aren't a modern army, if they have to attack something too hard for their artillery, they have the Imperial Navy and AdMech to ask to bring much bigger guns to the fight, in fact they aren't supposed to be too independent.