In Defense of Imperium of Man

[King Arts]

You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Sure, Imperium may wish it were that way.

But when you read actual books and how things actually are in the Imperium, as opposed to how Administratum may wish they were, that is a completely different picture.

That list of laws is in fact a nice example. Sure, it may seem draconian... until you remember that in most cases there is only a single Arbiter per planet.

And planetary government has its own laws. Thus, punishment can and will be different on each world. Sure, law may be that strict on some worlds... or even stricter. On others, laws will be even milder than modern-day EU.

But 90% of the time, that list will be completely irrelevant. Unless person is copulating with an alien, propagating Chaos cult, or doing something else that would bring the security of wider Imperium into the question... and considering the potential consequences of such actions, yeah - those laws suddenly seem far more reasonable than they do at a first glance. Because to even be concerned with them, you have to do something really, really big.

My god so if the laws aren’t enforced then it’s not oppressive. I guess communist Romania actually had free speech because while on paper you can’t insult Ceaucescu in reality many people complained about his bullshit in public at bars while drunk and nothing happened.

I guess Warsaw pact nations had free speech.

 

[Marduk]

No im talking about Muslims living in the same caliphate but belonging to different schools Hanafi, Shaffi, etc.

And the guy above you seems to argue that. Also even your argument is tyrannical requiring people to worship a man as god would be controversial to many religions. In fact while GW may want to shy away from it the Imperiums policy would call for the death of Jews as “heretics”


Manifestly false 40k had religions that were not chaos worship including Christianity and Islam since history does follow ours to a degree.

We don't have full info on what happens in the warp when one of those is worshiped. However Emperor probably had an idea...
One thing we do know is that chaos cults are willing and able to infiltrate and subvert other religions in more and less subtle ways, and can hide themselves under less than obvious local religions, including even shells that looks like a proper Emperor cult.
Also ironically being worshiped as a god was something Emperor himself outright banned, it's just that people worshiped him anyway, and once he was no longer around to argue his case it grew out of control into effectively state religion.
No one knows really why the Emperor banned worship of himself, but his understanding of the warp was way beyond that of any human, possibly matched only by Old Ones and ancient Eldar, and it's possible that he had a good point in it, for example it could be not powering up him, or not only him.

There are also good warp entities like Eldar gods.

Those are the only ones we know of for sure. If you would even count them as good. And if you can still count them as existing and capable of receiving worship after the events of the Fall. They are probably good for the Eldar, but for humans, hard to say.

 

[StormEagle]

We don't have full info on what happens in the warp when one of those is worshiped. However Emperor probably had an idea...
One thing we do know is that chaos cults are willing and able to infiltrate and subvert other religions in more and less subtle ways, and can hide themselves under less than obvious local religions, including even shells that looks like a proper Emperor cult.
Also ironically being worshiped as a god was something Emperor himself outright banned, it's just that people worshiped him anyway, and once he was no longer around to argue his case it grew out of control into effectively state religion.
No one knows really why the Emperor banned worship of himself, but his understanding of the warp was way beyond that of any human, possibly matched only by Old Ones and ancient Eldar, and it's possible that he had a good point in it, for example it could be not powering up him, or not only him.

Those are the only ones we know of for sure. If you would even count them as good. And if you can still count them as existing and capable of receiving worship after the events of the Fall. They are probably good for the Eldar, but for humans, hard to say.

Considering the shit Kaela Mensha Khaine, got up to… It’s arguable how “good” the Eldar pantheon was for the Eldar.

Some of them, Isha and Vaul, were undoubtedly boons to the Eldar and their pantheon was strong enough to keep a lid on three of the four Chaos Gods for a long time.

But Khaine. Also, I’m pretty sure a not insignificant amount of the Eldar pantheon agreed with Khaine’s decision to purge the Eldar population.

So, yeah, your mileage may vary on how “good” the Eldar gods were.

 

[evilchumlee]

Also ironically being worshiped as a god was something Emperor himself outright banned, it's just that people worshiped him anyway, and once he was no longer around to argue his case it grew out of control into effectively state religion.
No one knows really why the Emperor banned worship of himself, but his understanding of the warp was way beyond that of any human, possibly matched only by Old Ones and ancient Eldar, and it's possible that he had a good point in it, for example it could be not powering up him, or not only him.

I'm by no means a 40k lore expert, but it seems to me that the Emperor's intention was to eradicate all religion due to the very real effects that concentrated worship had. Yes, if people worshipped him, he could become godlike but... he already WAS. He didn't need it. Religion was more dangerous because that could lead people into worshipping OTHER things, and that's how you get Chaos.

Emperor was powerful enough without the worship. The worship was just potentially making enemies stronger.

 

[Aldarion]

My god so if the laws aren’t enforced then it’s not oppressive. I guess communist Romania actually had free speech because while on paper you can’t insult Ceaucescu in reality many people complained about his bullshit in public at bars while drunk and nothing happened.

I guess Warsaw pact nations had free speech.

They did, relatively speaking.

In fact, Communist Yugoslavia had - in practice - far more free speech than any Western nation has today.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Tell me: do you have any idea what is the primary, if not sole, inherent function of the state?

Also, Imperium isn't authoritarian by today's standards. That is part of the reason why I like it. It is basically a combination of Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire in space.

That wasn't the question, is it? I asked you if you truly believed you'd survive better under an Imperium of Man that said "Suffer not the Caucasian to live". Which is a fair question. If the Imperium is more tolerant and less oppressive than the current Left you should be able to answer "Yes". You should no problems living in a society as an unfavored class. It shouldn't matter if the God-Emperor comes out as Trans and the High Lords become LGBTQ devotees because you have total autonomy, correct? I think we both know the answer to that is "No". The Imperium would happily make you respect pronouns and mutilate your children if that served their ends.

So what you've admitted is that it isn't so much that the Imperium is any less oppressive or more open to alternative viewpoints but that you merely happen to agree with the Imperium worldview. That they're oppressive in your favor.

Which is your choice but it is a rejection of Classical Liberalism and the last few hundred years of social progress which created the modern day ideas of tolerance and liberty. Now those are certainly aren't the only way to organize society, most of human history proves otherwise, but they are incompatible with what we might call "Western values".

Now as for your assertion the Imperium as a whole isn't "authoritarian", that is unfortunately baseless. You can argue it isn't technically Fascist which is fair since, like the Holy Roman Empire aspects, its first and foremost just window dressing fluff that looks or sounds cool and gives off the "vibe" Games Workshop wanted for their dark satirical subversion of typical optimistic future. But to be an "authoritarian" merely requires "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom" to quote the oxford dictionary.

We already know the Imperium favors a police states where everything you say is recorded by secret police, we know via your own evidence the State mandated religion requires obedience to the State and it's leaders and of course absolute power over a world is invested to the State starting with the Planetary Governor which is frequently, if not exclusively, a heredity position and going up to ever more remote and distant rulers.

And we know that, unlike rulers of the past who had quite limited means to enforce or control beyond their immediate presence, the Imperium's 20th century plus technology which most worlds, through not all, posses gives them as much insight and control over the global population as the Left currently enjoys with none of the pesky restraints on power.

It is Churchill's warning of an "abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science" combining modern means of coercion and control with pre-modern strains of thought.

There are certainly laudable aspects to it. The sheer tenacity of humanity, refusing to bow to a hostile universe, is the stuff of humanity "Fuck yeah!" is made of. And I do quite enjoy the "anti-federation" aspects. Its good sometimes to not be the bigger man. To not have to accommodate or compromise. Where instead of navel gazing morality there's a stark black and white of Us or Them.

But all that said as fun as the Imperium is to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

 

[Marduk]

That wasn't the question, is it? I asked you if you truly believed you'd survive better under an Imperium of Man that said "Suffer not the Caucasian to live". Which is a fair question. If the Imperium is more tolerant and less oppressive than the current Left you should be able to answer "Yes". You should no problems living in a society as an unfavored class. It shouldn't matter if the God-Emperor comes out as Trans and the High Lords become LGBTQ devotees because you have total autonomy, correct? I think we both know the answer to that is "No". The Imperium would happily make you respect pronouns and mutilate your children if that served their ends.

This is the classic, widely mocked in memes "wow, imagine if our side did that" line.
Precedents mean a lot only in classic common law, but not in wider politics, plenty of factions are more than willing to set their own and not care about what the other side "might" do with them.
The Imperium does not owe prosperity or tolerance to xenos powers, for one they surely don't think this way regarding mankind, never did, and never will.
In 40k if someone who went "imagine if chaos took over the Ecclesiarchy and used its authority to make everyone worship the ruinous powers, we need to make the Imperium religiously neutral before that happens" would be considered mentally deficient. Why? Because if chaos was in position to do so, it would, regardless of whether Ecclesiarchy exists and has any authority right now, for they do not care the slightest bit about your ideas of justice, precedents, law, fairness or many other things.
And the same applies to leftists btw.

So what you've admitted is that it isn't so much that the Imperium is any less oppressive or more open to alternative viewpoints but that you merely happen to agree with the Imperium worldview. That they're oppressive in your favor.

Which is your choice but it is a rejection of Classical Liberalism and the last few hundred years of social progress which created the modern day ideas of tolerance and liberty. Now those are certainly aren't the only way to organize society, most of human history proves otherwise, but they are incompatible with what we might call "Western values".

Western values and "modern day ideas of tolerance and liberty" are not the same, and we will need to sacrifice some of the latter to save the former IMNSHO, as their excess is causing slow destruction of the former, and liberalism has no monopoly on "western values". This experiment has collided with the hard reality that just because you are tolerant to someone, in no way ensures that they will be tolerant of you in return, especially once they have the upper hand.

If anything, the very alternate view on such things may be a part of the appeal of 40k - in a sea of sameness, it is an island of something else.

And we know that, unlike rulers of the past who had quite limited means to enforce or control beyond their immediate presence, the Imperium's 20th century plus technology which most worlds, through not all, posses gives them as much insight and control over the global population as the Left currently enjoys with none of the pesky restraints on power.

Clearly you have little idea on how the setting is.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Clearly you have little idea on how the setting is.

Let's see we have an RPG sourcebook that details Imperial law, we have the core rulebook describing planetary governors as tyrannically despots, we have an example of the Imperium running a police state.

Conversely you and your side have, to my knowledge, posted *nothing* to dispute any of this. The two primary arguments I've seen in this thread consist of 1.) arguing any negative example is somehow not representative, with the inherent double standard that your alleged examples are representative, or 2.) arguing the example is "needed" because of Xenos and Chaos.

This is on top of both you and @Aldarion citing in defense of your opinions of the Imperium these exact same opinions as evidence in a circular argument.

This is the classic, widely mocked in memes "wow, imagine if our side did that" line.

Marduk there is a very wide difference between presenting the Imperium as some idealized and desirable society and playing by the rules Liberals have set for themselves.

For instance its one thing to employ Cancel Culture against the Left. They started it and it serves us no advantage not to fight fire with fire. Its another thing to argue in favor of Cancel Culture as a positive good. One of these allows us to eventually stop doing this, to return to sane values. The other just furthers an endless cycle of oppression.

The idea isn't so much that the Ecclesiarchy is bad because Chaos will use that as justification to impose their Anti-Ecclesiarchy, through the oppressive framework of the Imperium does make that an easier lift, but that the torment and oppression of the Ecclesiarchy would be no worse than the Anti-Ecclesiarchy.

Western values and "modern day ideas of tolerance and liberty" are not the same

Well it depends on how you define "modern day". For myself I typically put the endpoint in the 50's or 60's when the anti-liberal left started making inroads and indeed I would classify much of the Western nations of today as being incompatible with classical Western values.

For starters Western values are inherently Christian based. While it doesn't require for you to believe it requires an environment based on the former's underlying assumptions. And the strength of conviction to uphold these convictions in the face of opposition. Which is the exact opposite of the one-way tolerance the Left demands. The idea isn't that every idea will be proudly accepted, indeed a vital component is the very Christian sense of shame, but rather allow a market place and the freedom for people to make their own decisions.

What you appear to be objecting to is the Left's perverted view which takes Western ideas and wears them like a skinsuit to advance their agenda selectively applying and distorting this tolerance into a very authoritarian demand to support Gays/Muslims/ect

As for sacrificing liberty in exchange for security I'm reminded of that Ben Franklin quote about hoping the alligator eats you last. So, just speaking for myself, I don't see that as likely to lead to a good outcome. But you are certainly free to believe otherwise.

 

[Marduk]

Let's see we have an RPG sourcebook that details Imperial law, we have the core rulebook describing planetary governors as tyrannically despots, we have an example of the Imperium running a police state.

RPG sourcebooks are secondary lore at best, and it would have far less things like rebellions, chaos cults and even fucking Inquisition civil wars if it was able to run a police state.
And no, only some planetary governors are "tyrannical despots".

Conversely you and your side have, to my knowledge, posted *nothing* to dispute any of this. The two primary arguments I've seen in this thread consist of 1.) arguing any negative example is somehow not representative, with the inherent double standard that your alleged examples are representative, or 2.) arguing the example is "needed" because of Xenos and Chaos.

Imperium is huge and varied. This is the equivalent of arguing whether forge worlds or feral worlds are representative of the Imperium.
And yes, it is needed in light of Imperium's circumstances.

Marduk there is a very wide difference between presenting the Imperium as some idealized and desirable society and playing by the rules Liberals have set for themselves.

Imperium is not "a society". Imperium is a billion societies loosely tied by several imperial organizations, and so anyone trying to generalize conditions in it is merely demonstrating own ignorance. It's incredibly hard to find much in common between Elysia or Hydraphur and Fenris or Iocanthos.

For instance its one thing to employ Cancel Culture against the Left. They started it and it serves us no advantage not to fight fire with fire. Its another thing to argue in favor of Cancel Culture as a positive good. One of these allows us to eventually stop doing this, to return to sane values. The other just furthers an endless cycle of oppression.

Cancel culture cannot exist in a vacuum. It's a variation of general "social conflict" adapted for leftist infiltrators of liberal societies. In different times and places, it did exist, however it usually involved far more torches and pitchforks, literally sometimes.

The idea isn't so much that the Ecclesiarchy is bad because Chaos will use that as justification to impose their Anti-Ecclesiarchy, through the oppressive framework of the Imperium does make that an easier lift, but that the torment and oppression of the Ecclesiarchy would be no worse than the Anti-Ecclesiarchy.

Have you read a description of a daemon world? That's what "Anti-Ecclesiarchy" would bring about. So no, it's not worse, and you have made no argument how its existence makes it easier for agents of chaos, overt and covert, to take power.

Well it depends on how you define "modern day". For myself I typically put the endpoint in the 50's or 60's when the anti-liberal left started making inroads and indeed I would classify much of the Western nations of today as being incompatible with classical Western values.

For starters Western values are inherently Christian based. While it doesn't require for you to believe it requires an environment based on the former's underlying assumptions. And the strength of conviction to uphold these convictions in the face of opposition. Which is the exact opposite of the one-way tolerance the Left demands. The idea isn't that every idea will be proudly accepted, indeed a vital component is the very Christian sense of shame, but rather allow a market place and the freedom for people to make their own decisions.

The funny stuff happens when the "marketplace of ideas" decides that indeed it very much doesn't like some ideas and their adherents especially. What can it do about them?
That is the question of tolerance vs freedom, and the left has made their choice.
Who draws the line on where tolerance ends, and who does the dirty work when it's crossed?

What you appear to be objecting to is the Left's perverted view which takes Western ideas and wears them like a skinsuit to advance their agenda selectively applying and distorting this tolerance into a very authoritarian demand to support Gays/Muslims/ect

As for sacrificing liberty in exchange for security I'm reminded of that Ben Franklin quote about hoping the alligator eats you last. So, just speaking for myself, I don't see that as likely to lead to a good outcome. But you are certainly free to believe otherwise.

Do we need the soundbites? In that case, RECREATIONAL NUKES NOW!
As i said, in 40k some matters related to politics and religion are not like in our time, merely attempts at internal social power games, but a desperate attempt to limit the damage caused by xenos and extra-dimensional entities who are hell bent on killing, eating, enslaving or worse all humans they can get their tentacles on, no ifs and buts. They don't follow our political theories, our laws, and in the latter case, not even the same laws of physics we do, in this pursuit.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

RPG sourcebooks are secondary lore at best, and it would have far less things like rebellions, chaos cults and even fucking Inquisition civil wars if it was able to run a police state.
And no, only some planetary governors are "tyrannical despots".

40k does not employ a tier canon system to my knowledge. If I'm incorrect, please cite the relevant quote from Games Workshop. To my knowledge everything is canon.

Further the RPG book was one example one others ranging from novels to the core rulebook all of whom agree with each other.

Which incidently says "many" planetary Governors are despots.

While in contrast your link goes to a Reddit post where people involved seemly give opinions rather than cite evidence. Meaning its worthless.

If you want to cite Caves of Ice you need to cite the specific examples from the text so everyone can independently determine what, if anything, is being shown. Afterall @Aldarion cited a Governor simply showing up to military meetings that had to be dumbed down as "makework" as above the norm for Imperial leaders. Which is a bar Biden could quite possibly shuffle his way under. So what makes a competent leader is always going to be somewhat subjective.

Imperium is huge and varied. This is the equivalent of arguing whether forge worlds or feral worlds are representative of the Imperium.
And yes, it is needed in light of Imperium's circumstances.

Okay. That would be fair if you were saying the Imperium is wide and varied and there is no consistency. Which is not your argument. Rather you have argued in favor of Aldarion's position that the Imperium which is that the Imperium is more free/ less oppressive/less shitty than Western nations. Ie that there is a baseline which can be favorably compared to our world's Western Nations.

Now if you wish to argue with Aldarion that they're wrong and you can't meaningfully compare the Imperium because it's just too varied with no two worlds alike be my guess. I would love to see it.

Imperium is not "a society". Imperium is a billion societies loosely tied by several imperial organizations, and so anyone trying to generalize conditions in it is merely demonstrating own ignorance. It's incredibly hard to find much in common between Elysia or Hydraphur and Fenris or Iocanthos.

More accurately they're a somewhat loose confederation of planets subjugated by Terra and much like the Roman empire there is much transferer of values including a law code all worlds are under as well as most pressingly for our purposes a harsh authoritarianism against the "other".

Or in other words if you wish to claim Elysia is different from Fenris in ways that are relevant to the discussion you would need to cite examples of them not being authoritarian dicks. Which is possible. Space Wolves are some of the nicer Space Marine chapters.

All of which ties back to your core problem of making claims and shifting the burden of proof to the other person then resorting to insults when called out on it.

Cancel culture cannot exist in a vacuum. It's a variation of general "social conflict" adapted for leftist infiltrators of liberal societies. In different times and places, it did exist, however it usually involved far more torches and pitchforks, literally sometimes.

Not really. Cancel Culture has its roots more in Marxist group politics forcing homogenous of opinions and ostracizing and punishing those who, even for good intentions, have "wrong think". That is very different from people applying social pressure to say make Gays keep a lower profile.

One is an artificial, typically perpetually ramping mob mentality to advance an agenda while the other is a natural self-corrective that helps keep a society relatively stable. You may notice we've lost the latter while gaining the former much to our societies detriment.

Have you read a description of a daemon world?

Demon worlds are planet who have been engulfed in the warp, yes? Like the eye of terror. Which would presumably be the end result or end goal of a Demon cult since stable holes into the Warp don't happen every day. I mean the Laer had a dedicated cult worship of Chaos and their planet was not a daemon world.

Further if you and your entire family have been burned to ash does it matter if it was on a Daemon world or by Imperials. Dead is dead.

and you have made no argument how its existence makes it easier for agents of chaos, overt and covert, to take power.

Well the easiest way for a faction known for insidious corruption would be to simply corrupt the church's leadership. The top down nature of the Imperium would make it hard for anyone to realize and speak up unless they were higher on the totem pole.
As was the case of Vraks and Cardinal Xaphan. Showing the downside of amassing power in small groups of people when there's instant crazy madness floating around.

The funny stuff happens when the "marketplace of ideas" decides that indeed it very much doesn't like some ideas and their adherents especially. What can it do about them?

Well Free Will has its downsides but I'd rather argue with people why socialism is a stupid idea than trust the guy who thinks he can personally decide what is and isn't acceptable.

And broadly speaking I think the people drawing the line in the sand, and doing the "dirty work", should be the ones most reluctant to do it not the most eager. Restraint and moderation should be good watch words in these circumstances.

As i said, in 40k some matters related to politics and religion are not like in our time, merely attempts at internal social power games, but a desperate attempt to limit the damage caused by xenos and extra-dimensional entities who are hell bent on killing, eating, enslaving or worse all humans they can get their tentacles on, no ifs and buts. They don't follow our political theories, our laws, and in the latter case, not even the same laws of physics we do, in this pursuit.

Well that's very much a point where we disagree. Your position seems to be Classical Liberalism only works in a "good" universe and it won't work in 40k. Essentially agreeing with the Left that we must jettison our liberty, our values ect because of the EMERGENCY.

In contrast I believe the opposite Classical Liberalism made the goodness of our time line rather than was a product of it. I think good ol American Exceptionalism would fare a lot better with a lower body count than Imperium's fanaticism and pre-Enlightenment values.

 

[Ixian]

I would like to point out, the fantasy flight ttrpg books are all canon, and continue to be referenced in codex's, and novels.

If the Calixis Sector is an average example of an Imperial Sector, you can't really argue that the Imperium isn't authoritarian.

Hmm, well maybe you could, most of the oppression actually comes from local planetary rulers and nobility, but the Great Sector houses, more involved in the upper Imperium level governance certainly don't mind taking advantage of the common man.

 

[Marduk]

40k does not employ a tier canon system to my knowledge. If I'm incorrect, please cite the relevant quote from Games Workshop. To my knowledge everything is canon.

Well then some canon is wrong because it contradicts other canon and both can't be true.

Further the RPG book was one example one others ranging from novels to the core rulebook all of whom agree with each other.

Which incidently says "many" planetary Governors are despots.

While in contrast your link goes to a Reddit post where people involved seemly give opinions rather than cite evidence. Meaning its worthless.

If you want to cite Caves of Ice you need to cite the specific examples from the text so everyone can independently determine what, if anything, is being shown. Afterall @Aldarion cited a Governor simply showing up to military meetings that had to be dumbed down as "makework" as above the norm for Imperial leaders. Which is a bar Biden could quite possibly shuffle his way under. So what makes a competent leader is always going to be somewhat subjective.

The thread gives more examples than that. I'm not spending hours getting and then searching books to get you examples to serve them to you on a silver platter, i have better things to do.

Okay. That would be fair if you were saying the Imperium is wide and varied and there is no consistency. Which is not your argument. Rather you have argued in favor of Aldarion's position that the Imperium which is that the Imperium is more free/ less oppressive/less shitty than Western nations. Ie that there is a baseline which can be favorably compared to our world's Western Nations.

Now if you wish to argue with Aldarion that they're wrong and you can't meaningfully compare the Imperium because it's just too varied with no two worlds alike be my guess. I would love to see it.

The Imperium itself allows a massive variance of systems with their own ideas of laws, customs and freedoms. This is the complete opposite of modern western organizations like the EU, which only allow liberal democracy with very little leeway from that. That's may be what he means. Just because many don't use that leeway in a creative way doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Many feral worlds have tribal council based rule, and on more modernish end you have planets like Athonos which is in oligarchy/democracy territory, there's a democratic hive city on Necromunda, and then you have outright 40k Tatooine like places like Footfall on the border territories.

More accurately they're a somewhat loose confederation of planets subjugated by Terra and much like the Roman empire there is much transferer of values including a law code all worlds are under as well as most pressingly for our purposes a harsh authoritarianism against the "other".

Nah, many worlds, especially on the edges, wouldn't recognize the imperial law if it hit them in the face. In terms of... coherence and law enforcement that it's closer to Mongolian empire than Roman one. Unless someone really pushes the line, outside of some important places no one cares about little issues. There is no one to care.

Or in other words if you wish to claim Elysia is different from Fenris in ways that are relevant to the discussion you would need to cite examples of them not being authoritarian dicks. Which is possible. Space Wolves are some of the nicer Space Marine chapters.

All of which ties back to your core problem of making claims and shifting the burden of proof to the other person then resorting to insults when called out on it.

You are asking with a lot of my time for an exercise in futility. How do you even measure being authoritarian dicks in an objective way? Neither you nor i can.
For one there is a whole category of worlds notable for... being not very authoritarian, sometimes to the point of making lives of the locals more interesting than they would wish.

Frontier World

"I’m sure this fancy windup chrono does indeed mean you’re wealthy -- somewhere else. On this world, you’ll be needing to use that pretty laspistol of yours instead if you’re wanting to impress anyone." —Tildi Galloph, trading post dealer A Frontier World is a planet only recently discovered by...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Not really. Cancel Culture has its roots more in Marxist group politics forcing homogenous of opinions and ostracizing and punishing those who, even for good intentions, have "wrong think". That is very different from people applying social pressure to say make Gays keep a lower profile.

One is an artificial, typically perpetually ramping mob mentality to advance an agenda while the other is a natural self-corrective that helps keep a society relatively stable. You may notice we've lost the latter while gaining the former much to our societies detriment.

I'd prefer the term "morphed". Note that it can be in flux between one form and another, considering some situations in Mao's China, and also during BLM riots.

Demon worlds are planet who have been engulfed in the warp, yes? Like the eye of terror. Which would presumably be the end result or end goal of a Demon cult since stable holes into the Warp don't happen every day. I mean the Laer had a dedicated cult worship of Chaos and their planet was not a daemon world.

Yes. Also many planets around Eye of Terror and similar warp phenomena.

Further if you and your entire family have been burned to ash does it matter if it was on a Daemon world or by Imperials. Dead is dead.

A lot of chaos stuff is in "death would be strongly preferable" territory.

Well the easiest way for a faction known for insidious corruption would be to simply corrupt the church's leadership. The top down nature of the Imperium would make it hard for anyone to realize and speak up unless they were higher on the totem pole.

But there are people higher on the totem pole meant specifically to monitor those who the Imperium gives such authority.

As was the case of Vraks and Cardinal Xaphan. Showing the downside of amassing power in small groups of people when there's instant crazy madness floating around.

And the Imperium did intervene. Moreover, he didn't spread his heresy by authority, it was a very popular heresy, so in a liberal society he would do no worse.
You think equivalent Islamist governments on Earth arise by being brought on the tanks of some foreign power, or out of popular sentiment?

Well Free Will has its downsides but I'd rather argue with people why socialism is a stupid idea than trust the guy who thinks he can personally decide what is and isn't acceptable.

And how is that working out?
Now imagine if socialists could write books that will turn 90% of their readers into a crazy Mao fanatics as opposed to just making them bored.
Well Chaos can pull off stuff like that.

And broadly speaking I think the people drawing the line in the sand, and doing the "dirty work", should be the ones most reluctant to do it not the most eager. Restraint and moderation should be good watch words in these circumstances.

Yet socialists are running amok and the dirty work ends up undone. So the theory seems to not be working out as you theorize.

Well that's very much a point where we disagree. Your position seems to be Classical Liberalism only works in a "good" universe and it won't work in 40k. Essentially agreeing with the Left that we must jettison our liberty, our values ect because of the EMERGENCY.

In contrast I believe the opposite Classical Liberalism made the goodness of our time line rather than was a product of it. I think good ol American Exceptionalism would fare a lot better with a lower body count than Imperium's fanaticism and pre-Enlightenment values.

From my observation classical liberalism has a big problem with telling no to some rival political movements even in our "nice" universe, in a not so nice one like 40k it would be devoured in a moment.
There certainly are some elements of it worth keeping, but if it is to survive for next centuries, some parts will absolutely need to be removed and added and the end result will probably make some liberals of today uncomfortable.

 

[Ixian]

Here is a pleasant little glimpse at life in the Imperium from the pov of an Enforcer Detective.

"Aberrations. Mutants. The twisted, the void-changed. One of the Trinity of Hatreds, alongside the witch and the xenos, the mutant was a subject of universal fear and loathing. No child grew up without having stories of such creatures' deviance drummed into them, first in the family hab, then by their instructors. Zidarov could remember the fear vividly, waking up in the middle of the night, his sheets drenched with sweat, crying out that they were coming for him. You could, if you tried, entertain the thought that xenos did not exist at all, or were so far away that you'd never see one. You could, if you wished, make yourself believe that witches were something that might never be stumbled across, for they were rarer than an honest man with plentiful slate. But you could never fool yourself into thinking that aberrations didn't exist, for the evidence was everywhere. Every city medicae facility had dedicated incinerators for the infants born with gristle for eyes, or transparent skin, or spines in place of hair. Every cargo hub had illicit vid-footage of the things living in the bilge chambers of starships, wriggling in the dark, flinching from the light of flames. The problem was where to draw the line. Mankind was a galactic species, one scattered across a million worlds. Some planets were high-grav, some low-grav. Some were poisonous hell-swamps, others regulated urban centres. That induced variation, melding and stretching the original physical frame of humanity. Some mutations were deemed so common and benign that they were sanctioned, creating the abhuman class. Some subtle alterations were hard to detect, even by the individuals in question. So what was a true mutation, and what was merely an environmental adaptation? No doubt scholars on Terra spent their lives codifying answers. On a backwater world like Alecto, such certainty was harder to come by. Zidarov remembered attending a case when he'd still been a sanctioner – the armed wing of the enforcer corps – out at one of the mercantile port hubs. A big cargo carrier had ended up berthed in Alecto's voidspace, and its crew had come down planetside for a little rest and relaxation before the next stage. That had been a mistake – their skin was a touch too grey-tinged, their mouths a little too wide. Word got out, and a mob gathered. By the time Zidarov's squad was activated, it was too late – the ringleaders had stormed the compound and dragged the crew out onto the streets. Thirty men and woman, burned alive, screaming their innocence as the promethium-fuelled flames turned them to fatty, blackened meat-strips. No one faced retribution for that. There were too many in the crowds, thousands by the end. In any case, most of the sanctioners on duty had been sympathetic. 'You never know,' one of them had muttered to Zidarov, looking grimly at the smouldering pyres. 'Maybe they were.' Zidarov hadn't disagreed. Better safe than sorry, he'd found himself thinking. Let a mutant in, just one, and you could lose it all. Keep them out. Keep them all out. Still, it had been hard to listen to the screams. Particularly the juveniles. Hard to shake those off."
- Except from No Good Men

 

[Husky_Khan]

Here is a pleasant little glimpse at life in the Imperium from the pov of an Enforcer Detective.

"Aberrations. Mutants. The twisted, the void-changed. One of the Trinity of Hatreds, alongside the witch and the xenos, the mutant was a subject of universal fear and loathing. No child grew up without having stories of such creatures' deviance drummed into them, first in the family hab, then by their instructors. Zidarov could remember the fear vividly, waking up in the middle of the night, his sheets drenched with sweat, crying out that they were coming for him. You could, if you tried, entertain the thought that xenos did not exist at all, or were so far away that you'd never see one. You could, if you wished, make yourself believe that witches were something that might never be stumbled across, for they were rarer than an honest man with plentiful slate. But you could never fool yourself into thinking that aberrations didn't exist, for the evidence was everywhere. Every city medicae facility had dedicated incinerators for the infants born with gristle for eyes, or transparent skin, or spines in place of hair. Every cargo hub had illicit vid-footage of the things living in the bilge chambers of starships, wriggling in the dark, flinching from the light of flames. The problem was where to draw the line. Mankind was a galactic species, one scattered across a million worlds. Some planets were high-grav, some low-grav. Some were poisonous hell-swamps, others regulated urban centres. That induced variation, melding and stretching the original physical frame of humanity. Some mutations were deemed so common and benign that they were sanctioned, creating the abhuman class. Some subtle alterations were hard to detect, even by the individuals in question. So what was a true mutation, and what was merely an environmental adaptation? No doubt scholars on Terra spent their lives codifying answers. On a backwater world like Alecto, such certainty was harder to come by. Zidarov remembered attending a case when he'd still been a sanctioner – the armed wing of the enforcer corps – out at one of the mercantile port hubs. A big cargo carrier had ended up berthed in Alecto's voidspace, and its crew had come down planetside for a little rest and relaxation before the next stage. That had been a mistake – their skin was a touch too grey-tinged, their mouths a little too wide. Word got out, and a mob gathered. By the time Zidarov's squad was activated, it was too late – the ringleaders had stormed the compound and dragged the crew out onto the streets. Thirty men and woman, burned alive, screaming their innocence as the promethium-fuelled flames turned them to fatty, blackened meat-strips. No one faced retribution for that. There were too many in the crowds, thousands by the end. In any case, most of the sanctioners on duty had been sympathetic. 'You never know,' one of them had muttered to Zidarov, looking grimly at the smouldering pyres. 'Maybe they were.' Zidarov hadn't disagreed. Better safe than sorry, he'd found himself thinking. Let a mutant in, just one, and you could lose it all. Keep them out. Keep them all out. Still, it had been hard to listen to the screams. Particularly the juveniles. Hard to shake those off."
- Except from No Good Men

The formatting alone is an abomination worthy of burning in a pyre.

 

[Simonbob]

The thing is, in 40k?

It really could be the end of a planet.


I won't say it's nice or good. But the Imperium is that vunerable.

 

[Ixian]

The thing is, in 40k?

It really could be the end of a planet.


I won't say it's nice or good. But the Imperium is that vunerable.

I'd agree to an extent, we have seen many examples where Mutants are individually dangerous to surrounding Humans, as well as coordinated mutants uprisings in 40k lore, and often they are connected to Chaos.

But as the above Detective states, Humans are a Galactic species, and the paranoia runs deep in Imperial society. Often an Imperial lynch mob will murder innocents, even in the eyes of the Imperium, let alone our own society.

 

[Marduk]

I'd agree to an extent, we have seen many examples where Mutants are individually dangerous to surrounding Humans, as well as coordinated mutants uprisings in 40k lore, and often they are connected to Chaos.

But as the above Detective states, Humans are a Galactic species, and the paranoia runs deep in Imperial society. Often an Imperial lynch mob will murder innocents, even in the eyes of the Imperium, let alone our own society.

Someone, i think Arch, made a video exploring the mutant question.
The thing is, in 40k only some mutants are caused by "mundane" sources like pollution and ionizing radiation. While the Imperium can be pretty harsh in limiting the spread of genetic illnesses like that, those aren't the worst part.
The worst part are the most wild and significant kind of mutation, caused by exposure to warp energies, be it by warp travel incidents, dabbling in sorcery, or merely living on the wrong planet for too long, or any other reason. Mutants like that are nothing but trouble, and have a natural vulnerability to chaos subversion.
Also its often impossible to tell the difference between one and another type without very rare expertise if they don't go into the extreme.

 

[Aldarion]

That wasn't the question, is it? I asked you if you truly believed you'd survive better under an Imperium of Man that said "Suffer not the Caucasian to live". Which is a fair question. If the Imperium is more tolerant and less oppressive than the current Left you should be able to answer "Yes". You should no problems living in a society as an unfavored class. It shouldn't matter if the God-Emperor comes out as Trans and the High Lords become LGBTQ devotees because you have total autonomy, correct? I think we both know the answer to that is "No". The Imperium would happily make you respect pronouns and mutilate your children if that served their ends.

The answer is: "it depends". Largely, depends on where I live and how strong Imperial presence is.

But, on average, my chances of survival would be decent.

So what you've admitted is that it isn't so much that the Imperium is any less oppressive or more open to alternative viewpoints but that you merely happen to agree with the Imperium worldview. That they're oppressive in your favor.

I agree with many of Imperium's viewpoints because they are necessary for them to survive. But that has nothing to do with whether Imperium is oppressive or not.

As I said: Imperium certainly WANTS and TRIES to be authoritarian. It simply CAN'T be, because of the nature of the universe, nature of the transport and communication, and nature of the Imperium itself. As a result, it HAS to allow a lot of leeway in governance and so on.

Generally, best places to live in the 40k would be Eldar Craftworlds ~= Imperial Paradise Worlds > Imperial Cardinal Worlds = Imperial Shrine Worlds ~= Imperial Civilized Worlds > Imperial Feral Worlds > Imperial Feudal Worlds > Imperial Hive Worlds > Imperial Death Worlds > Mechanicus Forge Worlds ~= Death Worlds With Tyranids > Daemon Worlds.

Which is your choice but it is a rejection of Classical Liberalism and the last few hundred years of social progress which created the modern day ideas of tolerance and liberty. Now those are certainly aren't the only way to organize society, most of human history proves otherwise, but they are incompatible with what we might call "Western values".

Ideas of tolerance and liberty are someting of a joke if implemented without context. In fact, trying to implement absolute tolerance and liberty in one segment merely creates tyranny and oppression in another segment.

For example:

• If you implement liberty of no borders, you have to remove liberty of personal choice and freedom from spying - simply because multicultural societies are inherently murderous.
• If you want to maintain personal liberties, you have to maintain well-protected and at least culturally (ideally also ethnically) homogeneous society... which can only be maintained by denying liberty of migration.
• If you want to implement tolerance, you have to remove all liberties... the only way for no conflict to happen is if nobody has any liberty.
• If you want to maintain liberty in your personal life, you cannot tolerate somebody trying to come into your personal life without invitation.

It is a balancing act, and answer for each society will be different based on its cultural, historical and geopolitical characteristics.

I am in favor of as many personal liberties as possible... but even there, there has to be a limit (e.g. not allowing paedophiles to adopt kids).

But optimal answer for one society cannot be the same as optimal answer for a different society. Therefore, "Western values" too are something of a joke, at least the moment you try to expand them past basic stuff that we gained from Antiquity and Christianity (e.g. individual liberty, respect for life - especially of children, right to personal property and right to self-defense).

Now as for your assertion the Imperium as a whole isn't "authoritarian", that is unfortunately baseless. You can argue it isn't technically Fascist which is fair since, like the Holy Roman Empire aspects, its first and foremost just window dressing fluff that looks or sounds cool and gives off the "vibe" Games Workshop wanted for their dark satirical subversion of typical optimistic future. But to be an "authoritarian" merely requires "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom" to quote the oxford dictionary.

We already know the Imperium favors a police states where everything you say is recorded by secret police, we know via your own evidence the State mandated religion requires obedience to the State and it's leaders and of course absolute power over a world is invested to the State starting with the Planetary Governor which is frequently, if not exclusively, a heredity position and going up to ever more remote and distant rulers.

And we know that, unlike rulers of the past who had quite limited means to enforce or control beyond their immediate presence, the Imperium's 20th century plus technology which most worlds, through not all, posses gives them as much insight and control over the global population as the Left currently enjoys with none of the pesky restraints on power.

It is Churchill's warning of an "abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science" combining modern means of coercion and control with pre-modern strains of thought.

Yes, it might be more accurate to say that Imperium is not "tyrannical" rather than "authoritarian". But my point is that Imperium has only few baseline rules, and these are not very invasive to individual world's (or even citizen's) rights. Imperium doesn't care how you run your world, so long as you a) fulfill your obligations in terms of tithe and b) do not endanger security of the Imperium. You want to have a democratic government? Cool, now where are my recruits?

We also know that Imperium cannot really implement any of the policies you have said it favors. We know there are Chaos and Genestealer cults on Holy Terra itself, we know that Imperium does NOT have absolute power over a world - Governor may have in theory, but said governor typically originates from the planet itself, be it as a hereditary feudal lord, military dictator or even (though these are rare) democratically elected leader.

And said "insight and control over the global population" is basically nonexistent. Again: there are Chaos and Genestealer cults on the Holy Terra itself, and Imperium has basically no knowledge about things that are happening in the bowels of the Imperial Palace itself. So much for Imperium's "insight and control".

EDIT: Hell, on some planets you have literal Bills of Rights:

"Oh, yes I can, commissar! Fifth Bill of Rights, Amendment 457/hj: 'In event of conflict, surgeon staff may commandeer all available resources for the furtherance of competent medical work.' - Gaunt's Ghosts, novel 2: Necropolis

The Imperium itself allows a massive variance of systems with their own ideas of laws, customs and freedoms. This is the complete opposite of modern western organizations like the EU, which only allow liberal democracy with very little leeway from that. That's may be what he means. Just because many don't use that leeway in a creative way doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Many feral worlds have tribal council based rule, and on more modernish end you have planets like Athonos which is in oligarchy/democracy territory, there's a democratic hive city on Necromunda, and then you have outright 40k Tatooine like places like Footfall on the border territories.

That is precisely what I mean.

I don't see EU tolerating any political system that is not "liberal democracy".

 

[Husky_Khan]

Just read my first Warhammer 40K Omnibus of novels not too long ago... and it was about the White Scars who were my favorite Space Marine chapter already but anyways, the planetary societies they visited were varied but with one or two exceptions, was pretty shallow. It seems to reinforce the idea of the Imperium being pretty autonomously locally though.

Arbiters were like mentioned ONCE in all of the novels, and that was on a Hive World where they were investigating Hive Gangs getting weapons from invading Tau scum. It was like a one line discourse. I don't think Inquisitors were mentioned once. So much for those Imperial laws. As for the worlds themselves...

The first world was a Promethium manufactory in a frozen wasteland under the control of Chaos, so not applicable. The second world seemed like some generic world just conquered by Chaos. There seemed to be a lot of local resistance against it though despite the odds and sacrifices involved and the Chaos peeps were mass slaughtering/sacrificing civilians as punishment. Didn't seem like the world was too crapsack ahead of time. Elements of the military leadership were corrupt and there was a Civil War due to the military leadership choosing to side with either the Imperium or Chaos and from what I can see, choosing Chaos seemed to lead to overall worse outcomes IMHO.

Then there was some random tribute world to the White Scars. One major city, and lots of steppe tribes. Everyone seemed pretty swell, with the exception of Genestealer/Tyranid infestation ruining everything and again... I think the Imperium was preferable to the Tyranid governance as an alternative. Didn't notice anything particularly crapsack. The city dwellers and steppe people also looked strikingly different from each other so there was antipathy that seemed more motivated by cultural differences as opposed to mutation/appearance based racism.

Then there was the aforementioned Hive World, but it didn't really delve into the specifics of the society. I will say the Tau were able to invade it far more effectively then many 40Ker adherants would argue it would be possible to, and they did take advantage of societal fractures in a few cases (arming Hive Gangs as an example) though in another case they actually blew up an entire Hive City and killed seven billion people IIRC with a weapon of mass destruction and the Tau shrugging stating how many Tau lives were saved and how cost effective it was lol.

Then there was a Knight World I think its called. The ones controlled by Imperial Knights. It seemed to be populated by lots of happy, pretty peasant folk living on some lush world in a pastoralist type of setting. Of course the Tau had to try and show up and ruin everything.

Anyways, long story short, the Imperium seems pretty situational when it comes to governance. Most of the worlds seem to just be no markedly better or worse than anything else despite the overall grimdark tone and atmosphere of everything.

 

[Ixian]

Actually the best place to live in 40k is the bridge of my Tyrant-class Cruiser at the head of my dynastic Rogue Trader fleet beyond the edge of the Imperium.