Most common alternate history tropes?

[Jormungandr]

They would kill hime even in 1938,if France supported Czech.

Yep: people tend to overlook or forget that up until the successful Polish invasion, Hitler was actually on thin ice and doing a delicate balancing act among his own Party members/the Germany military.

If one thing had gone pear-shaped, the "Fuhrer" would've been the leader of a coffin.

 

[ATP]

Yep: people tend to overlook or forget that up until the successful Polish invasion, Hitler was actually on thin ice and doing a delicate balancing act among his own Party members/the Germany military.

If one thing had gone pear-shaped, the "Fuhrer" would've been the leader of a coffin.

True.Even in 1939,if France attacked before soviets,german generals would probably still kill Hitler.
Sralin was very cautious,so in this case woud probably did notching.

 

[raharris1973]

IIRC, elements of the Party and the Germany military were actually preparing to put a bullet in Hitler's head, if their reoccupation of the Rhineland failed/was resisted by the French.

If his gambit failed, they were willing to offer him up as a sacrifice to prevent another war breaking out and taking down a (then still weakened) Germany.

The Hitler "Mein Fuhrer" fanaticism came later.

They would kill hime even in 1938,if France supported Czech.

@Jormungandr and @ATP and everyone - a question for you guys. If other Nazi Party members and militarists were ready to kill or sacrifice Hitler in case of any foreign policy or war failures in the 1930s like you're describing, how do they a) avoid ownership of defeat and any terms the Allies impose to contain and restrict Germany after the Rhineland or Sudetenland adventure, and avoid the charge of stabbing the Fuhrer in the back being used by Hitler fans against them later, and b) if they are trying to hold power for themselves and not open up free political democratic competition that ex-political party and trade union leaders may ask for, how do they justify it? Do they say, "We need to be in charge to keep the country strong and the softies out of power and make the country ready to fight at the right time, even though we just had to ditch Hitler because he got in over his head in a fight at the wrong time?" - It is kind of a self-contradictory argument.

 

[WolfBear]

IIRC, elements of the Party and the Germany military were actually preparing to put a bullet in Hitler's head, if their reoccupation of the Rhineland failed/was resisted by the French.

If his gambit failed, they were willing to offer him up as a sacrifice to prevent another war breaking out and taking down a (then still weakened) Germany.

The Hitler "Mein Fuhrer" fanaticism came later.

Do you have a link for this, please? Because getting the Rhineland reoccupied isn't that scary if the French don't subsequently march onto Berlin. Hitler would be humbled, Yes, but it wouldn't be a critical situation for Germany.

 

[WolfBear]

@Jormungandr and @ATP and everyone - a question for you guys. If other Nazi Party members and militarists were ready to kill or sacrifice Hitler in case of any foreign policy or war failures in the 1930s like you're describing, how do they a) avoid ownership of defeat and any terms the Allies impose to contain and restrict Germany after the Rhineland or Sudetenland adventure, and avoid the charge of stabbing the Fuhrer in the back being used by Hitler fans against them later, and b) if they are trying to hold power for themselves and not open up free political democratic competition that ex-political party and trade union leaders may ask for, how do they justify it? Do they say, "We need to be in charge to keep the country strong and the softies out of power and make the country ready to fight at the right time, even though we just had to ditch Hitler because he got in over his head in a fight at the wrong time?" - It is kind of a self-contradictory argument.

The way that I see it is that a Rhineland reoccupation by France would not be a disaster for Germany if the French don't subsequently march onto Berlin, which I doubt they were realistically capable of doing anyway due to their very bad financial situation back then. But a Sudeten crisis that sparks WWII in 1938 could be perceived as being much more threatening for Germany since it could result in eventual total ruin for Germany just like WWI previously did. In that specific crisis, I could actually see the German opposition acting if they can get their act together. They didn't in the several months before the Fall of France in real life.

 

[ATP]

@Jormungandr and @ATP and everyone - a question for you guys. If other Nazi Party members and militarists were ready to kill or sacrifice Hitler in case of any foreign policy or war failures in the 1930s like you're describing, how do they a) avoid ownership of defeat and any terms the Allies impose to contain and restrict Germany after the Rhineland or Sudetenland adventure, and avoid the charge of stabbing the Fuhrer in the back being used by Hitler fans against them later, and b) if they are trying to hold power for themselves and not open up free political democratic competition that ex-political party and trade union leaders may ask for, how do they justify it? Do they say, "We need to be in charge to keep the country strong and the softies out of power and make the country ready to fight at the right time, even though we just had to ditch Hitler because he got in over his head in a fight at the wrong time?" - It is kind of a self-contradictory argument.

Not NSDAP,generals.Wermacht till 1940 was still independent enough for making coup.But Hitler keep winning,so they did notching - becouse they were german racists too.
Dude who tried to kill Hitler in 1944 in 1939 supported genocide of poles.

 

[Agent23]

Why so?

Although I suppose pre-Spanish locals would have preferred to be left alone as long as possible. But why would Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, English, Portuguese, Germans have been any better in the long or short run?

Let us see, first of all if you look and compare Spanish/Catholic colonies to ones created by protestants then you see that the non-spanish, non-catholic ones prospered.
Maybe it is because of the protestant work ethic or because the Spanish were overly-centralized and their main focus when colonizing was resource extraction, not the creation of a stable colony.

Basically you had a bunch of functionaries sent in, they got mistresses, those mistresses spawned a local aristocracy/oligarchy which still runs shit there to this day.

Francis Fukuyama covered it.

The americans did nothing to dislodge those rent seekers, but rather decided to work with and coopt them.

Why so? I could imagine the situation being ultimately no worse for Australian aboriginals, but also no or or little better - just screwed over and assimilated on a different timescale and in a different way.

For Southeast Asia, I could imagine it being worse than OTL because Japan has potential for a longer and heavier colonial yoke than the west which left much of the native national cultures and some institutions intact through the colonial period.

Cause I am a weeb, if you haven't figured it out by my avatar.
Also, Confucian civilization tends to create a pretty decent, well educated society and anything that gets me more animu and azn waifus is a good thing.

Which story was that in?

Sailing towards Byzantium was IIRC the name of the book.

 

[ATP]

Let us see, first of all if you look and compare Spanish/Catholic colonies to ones created by protestants then you see that the non-spanish, non-catholic ones prospered.
Maybe it is because of the protestant work ethic or because the Spanish were overly-centralized and their main focus when colonizing was resource extraction, not the creation of a stable colony.

Basically you had a bunch of functionaries sent in, they got mistresses, those mistresses spawned a local aristocracy/oligarchy which still runs shit there to this day.

Francis Fukuyama covered it.

The americans did nothing to dislodge those rent seekers, but rather decided to work with and coopt them.


Cause I am a weeb, if you haven't figured it out by my avatar.
Also, Confucian civilization tends to create a pretty decent, well educated society and anything that gets me more animu and azn waifus is a good thing.


Sailing towards Byzantium was IIRC the name of the book.

1.Yes,they treated colonies as source of gold.Only reason why something good happened there were monks - locals in their property lived good lives.Till masons destroyed it in 18/19th century.

Fun thing - Spain had from 16th century Salamanca school of economy,which was like Austrian school - but never used it.
You could create spanish world from TL when Kings started using it.

2.Ha,ha.Japan was not confusian,only buddhist-shinto.Locals could never get anything good from such mix.And you would get notching from them if they invade you,becouse you would be serf or dead body.

3.I read it.Do not change fact,that Machomet was christian heretic.

 

[Jormungandr]

Do you have a link for this, please? Because getting the Rhineland reoccupied isn't that scary if the French don't subsequently march onto Berlin. Hitler would be humbled, Yes, but it wouldn't be a critical situation for Germany.

I can't remember exact details, but it was in a few of those WW2 history videos on YouTube.

Basically, if there were any signs things were going to go pear-shaped during Germany's initial push (Rhineland, et cetera), Hitler would've been their scapegoat to prevent another war.

 

[Circle of Willis]

Some tropes I've seen specific to North America...

Second American Civil War starting positions: The feds are always going to be based in DC and/or the Rockies no matter whether this 2ACW happens in the '30s, '60s or near-future. The commie faction invariably has its stronghold in the Midwest, California or both. The South is Racism Central. New England & New York form a benevolent liberal bastion/breakaway that alone preserves democracy while everywhere else goes to hell. If I had a dollar for every time I saw a timeline or HOI4 mod with this premise, well I wouldn't be a millionaire, but I would be able to treat myself to a nice dinner.

Canada's just there: We're always just kinda there on the sidelines, virtually never the focus of the timeline (unless it's one of those rare Canadian-centric TLs obviously), and treated as either le wholesome 100 socdem mirror of the US with maple syrup & polar bear dung fire BBQs and/or a minor lackey of the British and Americans. In post-American Revolution British Empire TLs, Canada may get to enjoy a slightly higher profile as the UK's lieutenant among the colonies. Kaiserreich, despite being the source of the above 2ACW setup trope (at least as far as Hearts of Iron modding goes), actually avoids this meme by instead making Canada into a reasonable power and the main conservative monarchist tag (as the refuge of the exiled Windsors) at the start of the game.

Mexican'ts: Nine out of ten times, if Mexico shows up in a timeline after the Mexican-American War, it's going to be as a basketcase with no hope of recovery or outright in a state of civil war. No you can't ask what a successful Porfiriato or a Cristero victory would look like, the Mexicans pretty much never get to catch a break and be even moderately successful & stable outside of the (also quite rare, and most that I've seen center on Maximilian's 2nd Empire rather than exploring other periods of Mexican history) Mexico-centric TLs.

 

[Skallagrim]

Another trope, the Christians do not scoff at Mohammed and the Orthodox priests he meets are slightly less corrupt and inept and he becomes a Christian Saint, thus paving the way for the spread of Orthodoxy across Asia and Africa.

Well, not that widely used a trope tbh, but Turtledove did it.

Which story was that in?

Sailing towards Byzantium was IIRC the name of the book.

The book in question is Agent of Byzantium. (Linked wiki article might contain spoilers; caveat lector.)

Actually a set of spy stories set in an ATL 14th century, but with "Mohammed becomes a Christian saint" as the background POD. I think he later added a stort shory featuring Mohammed's conversion to later editions, but I own an edition without that later elaboration, I'm afraid.

 

[Skallagrim]

@Jormungandr and @ATP and everyone - a question for you guys. If other Nazi Party members and militarists were ready to kill or sacrifice Hitler in case of any foreign policy or war failures in the 1930s like you're describing, how do they a) avoid ownership of defeat and any terms the Allies impose to contain and restrict Germany after the Rhineland or Sudetenland adventure, and avoid the charge of stabbing the Fuhrer in the back being used by Hitler fans against them later, and b) if they are trying to hold power for themselves and not open up free political democratic competition that ex-political party and trade union leaders may ask for, how do they justify it? Do they say, "We need to be in charge to keep the country strong and the softies out of power and make the country ready to fight at the right time, even though we just had to ditch Hitler because he got in over his head in a fight at the wrong time?" - It is kind of a self-contradictory argument.

Because getting the Rhineland reoccupied isn't that scary if the French don't subsequently march onto Berlin. Hitler would be humbled, Yes, but it wouldn't be a critical situation for Germany.

The way that I see it is that a Rhineland reoccupation by France would not be a disaster for Germany if the French don't subsequently march onto Berlin, which I doubt they were realistically capable of doing anyway due to their very bad financial situation back then.

The problem here (causing the confusion for the both of you) is that the actual argument/motivation has been somewhat misrepresented in this thread. It's not that a re-occupation of the Rhineland would doom Germany and cause a new war, and therefore the generals would kill Hitler and make him the scape-goat in a desperate gamble to avoid annihilation. It's that the generals at this time were still mostly of the old officer corps, and they detested Hitler regardless of any other matter. Him failing in a very public way -- but precisely in a way that wouldn't doom Germany itself -- would be the perfect excuse to launch a coup and have a good shot at sufficient support.

Shoot all the Nazi leaders, take over the government, blame the Rhineland mess on Hitler. Then buddy up to the West. ("No, listen, we're just reasonable guys and we hate commies. That whole Rhineland thing was all Hitler!") And whip up anti-communist sentiment as much as possible. Gear up for a war against the USSR, and position yourself as the Defender of Civilised Europe. Do everything to make Europe afraid of "the Slavic hordes". All in the sure knowledge that when the time comes and Stalin actually seeks war, the Western powers will give up Poland as a lost cause, and prop Germany up as their bulwark.

The post-war reward will be that Germany gets Poland, to do with whatever it pleases. Probably Großdeutschland and a similar "as you see fit" domination over Czechia as well.

That was their game plan. And it would've worked, too, if Hitler hadn't had the devil's luck.

 

[Earl]

No, listen, we're just reasonable guys and we hate commies. That whole Rhineland thing was all Hitler!"

You have encountered a rare creature: Werechmact Officer whose self serving narrative is kinda true.

Main problem though: “Ah hello My Fellow Germans, we just killed the Furher because we were afraid of the Brits and French. Your welcome!”

German people : “Actually uh… we don’t like knuckling down to Britian and France. Fuck You (insert anti semitic conspiracy theory here)”

 

[Skallagrim]

Main problem though: “Ah hello My Fellow Germans, we just killed the Furher because we were afraid of the Brits and French. Your welcome!”

German people : “Actually uh… we don’t like knuckling down to Britian and France. Fuck You (insert anti semitic conspiracy theory here)”

More like:

"Fellow Germans, that upstart Austrian corporal has led us into a doomed conflict, years before we were ready, just as we've been saying all along. It has cost us much; too much. Now, the time has come to cleanse Germany of the socialist menace -- be they national or international socialists -- and restore firm, fair and capable government. Germany seeks no pointless war with civilised countries; we are a bastion against the communist menace, a shield against the slavic hordes that would over-run Christendom. Let us embrace our destiny and restore Germany's honour. Es lebe das heilige Vaterland!"

Something along those lines.

(And yes, it has the distinct advantage of not actually being complete bullshit.)

 

[Earl]

More like:

"Fellow Germans, that upstart Austrian corporal has led us into a doomed conflict, years before we were ready, just as we've been saying all along. It has cost us much; too much. Now, the time has come to cleanse Germany of the socialist menace -- be they national or international socialists -- and restore firm, fair and capable government. Germany seeks no pointless war with civilised countries; we are a bastion against the communist menace, the slavic hordes that would over-run Christendom. Let us embrace our destiny and restore Germany's honour. Es lebe das heilige Vaterland!"

Something along those lines.

Mmm, Maybe. Although Id see Nazis and Hitler Loyalists still being a factor, more of one than Otl post war politics.

Also a rather funny twist on this, they say all these things… and then just lose the war when Stalin finally gets going, having to be bailed by the Brits and French.

 

[stevep]

both spaniards and americans fucked Philippines,agreed - but,why Japan should be better?

And,Machomet was kind of christian.First ERE reaction to islam,after loosing Egypt,was describing them as heretics,not new faith.
First Koran was writen 100 years after Machomet,and it is different then previous versions - german archeologist found in Yeman version 100 years longer,20% of text is different.Oryginal must differ even more.

Which differ compared to chrystianity - older found Evangelions are almost exactly the same like our version.

Somewhat debatable conclusion. See this for an alternative viewpoint.

 

[stevep]

I think for Hitler the bad thing about a French intervention that forces him to back down over the Rhineland is that it stays demilitarized. So even if the army or some other group don't remove him his later adventures in Austria, Sudetenland, Bohemia and Poland vary between a hell of a lot less risky and simply suicidal. Unless he manages to get a successful 2nd attempt at some point but once the French have established the maintenance of the demilitarization of the Rhineland that seems unlikely.

 

[Bassoe]

Some tropes I've seen specific to North America...

Second American Civil War starting positions: The feds are always going to be based in DC and/or the Rockies no matter whether this 2ACW happens in the '30s, '60s or near-future. The commie faction invariably has its stronghold in the Midwest, California or both. The South is Racism Central. New England & New York form a benevolent liberal bastion/breakaway that alone preserves democracy while everywhere else goes to hell. If I had a dollar for every time I saw a timeline or HOI4 mod with this premise, well I wouldn't be a millionaire, but I would be able to treat myself to a nice dinner.

Canada's just there: We're always just kinda there on the sidelines, virtually never the focus of the timeline (unless it's one of those rare Canadian-centric TLs obviously), and treated as either le wholesome 100 socdem mirror of the US with maple syrup & polar bear dung fire BBQs and/or a minor lackey of the British and Americans. In post-American Revolution British Empire TLs, Canada may get to enjoy a slightly higher profile as the UK's lieutenant among the colonies. Kaiserreich, despite being the source of the above 2ACW setup trope (at least as far as Hearts of Iron modding goes), actually avoids this meme by instead making Canada into a reasonable power and the main conservative monarchist tag (as the refuge of the exiled Windsors) at the start of the game.

Mexican'ts: Nine out of ten times, if Mexico shows up in a timeline after the Mexican-American War, it's going to be as a basketcase with no hope of recovery or outright in a state of civil war. No you can't ask what a successful Porfiriato or a Cristero victory would look like, the Mexicans pretty much never get to catch a break and be even moderately successful & stable outside of the (also quite rare, and most that I've seen center on Maximilian's 2nd Empire rather than exploring other periods of Mexican history) Mexico-centric TLs.

It's a classic cliché source of post-apocalyptic baddies. If the author is left-wing, they'll have a new Confederacy, if right-wing, Aztlan. I have no knowledge of actual support for founding either of these, but can imagine timelines where their supporters fight each other over the same territory or team up to found some kind of apartheid hacienda system knockoff.

 

[WolfBear]

The problem here (causing the confusion for the both of you) is that the actual argument/motivation has been somewhat misrepresented in this thread. It's not that a re-occupation of the Rhineland would doom Germany and cause a new war, and therefore the generals would kill Hitler and make him the scape-goat in a desperate gamble to avoid annihilation. It's that the generals at this time were still mostly of the old officer corps, and they detested Hitler regardless of any other matter. Him failing in a very public way -- but precisely in a way that wouldn't doom Germany itself -- would be the perfect excuse to launch a coup and have a good shot at sufficient support.

Shoot all the Nazi leaders, take over the government, blame the Rhineland mess on Hitler. Then buddy up to the West. ("No, listen, we're just reasonable guys and we hate commies. That whole Rhineland thing was all Hitler!") And whip up anti-communist sentiment as much as possible. Gear up for a war against the USSR, and position yourself as the Defender of Civilised Europe. Do everything to make Europe afraid of "the Slavic hordes". All in the sure knowledge that when the time comes and Stalin actually seeks war, the Western powers will give up Poland as a lost cause, and prop Germany up as their bulwark.

The post-war reward will be that Germany gets Poland, to do with whatever it pleases. Probably Großdeutschland and a similar "as you see fit" domination over Czechia as well.

That was their game plan. And it would've worked, too, if Hitler hadn't had the devil's luck.

Worth noting that German generals had already sworn a personal loyalty oath to Hitler in 1934, though. Would they break it so casually in spite of the Prussian traditions of honor and military discipline?

 

[Zyobot]

Have seen quite a few clichés over the years, but adding to what's been said so far:

JFK Lives - Seriously, this one's been done to death over and over again. Granted, I can somewhat empathize with the "martyrdom" aspect that comes with a handsome, vivacious fella like Kennedy being taken out so unexpectedly, though digging into his various health issues and escapades over the years will tell you that's more public image than it was reality. That's something people taken in by the idea of a two-term Kennedy presidency forget, I imagine — especially since future battles over civil rights and the brewing counterculture of the Sixties would've tested his metal.

Nazi Super Science - Basically, the idea that Nazi Germany was this cutting-edge, technologically supreme force of destruction that could've easily won on the back of its technological superiority. Really, it always amuses me how even non-Nazi apologist Wehraboos active in the AH community hype up the state of World War II Germany's science and military technology — despite how misleading and cherrypicked their thesis is. For one, the Wehrmacht relied on horses and captured vehicles to lug troops and supplies around, not to mention French tanks actually being superior to German ones pound for pound — the French commanders’ incompetence in putting their superior armor to good use notwithstanding. Never mind some of the really dumb and wasteful “Wunderwaffe” projects Hitler blew the Reich’s money and best minds on, like the Landkreuzer and other ill-conceived mechanical monstrosities of the sort. So, hyper-futuristic victorious Third Reich? Yeah, how ’bout no!

Reverse Cold War - A wholesale "swap" of the Western and Eastern blocs' economic ideologies and systems of government over the 20th century. Usually, it's the US undergoing a communist revolution of some sort, while Russia liberalizes and becomes the world's foremost bulwark of "God and tradition!" in facing off against the Reddened West. Most well-known example of this scenario I can think of is Back in the USSA, though there are certainly online TLs — such as AH.com's Hammer's, Sickle's, and Mushroom Clouds — that are arguably even sillier, especially since they go full-tilt on direct analogies and ATL doppelgängers of OTL events, factions, and key figures.

Missed a good number, no doubt, but will give others a chance to speak and leave it at that for now.