On Masculinity and the concept of a Gentleman

[Scottty]

Something I found on Quora that I considered worth sharing.

Are traditional gentlemen effeminate by design? Or are they masculine with a softer touch?

Holzfeller's answer: Neither. Gentlemen of old are a completely misunderstood subsect of men. They are not effeminate— not even by today’s standards. No, instead it is proper to classify them as masculine. This is just perfect, as masculinity is a good thing. What it is not is always being forc...

www.quora.com

An excerpt or two:

Gentlemen of old are a completely misunderstood subsect of men. They are not effeminate— not even by today’s standards. No, instead it is proper to classify them as masculine. This is just perfect, as masculinity is a good thing.

What it is not is always being forceful, or violent, or argumentative, or loud, or cocky. What it is is being all of those things when they are necessary, and not a moment sooner or later than when one must be. Being a gentleman, the masculine hero of every male child born between 1660 and 1960, entails learning when to speak, when to listen, when to assert, and when to fight. A gentleman chooses his battles, wins often, and loses rarely, but never brags. He is the epitome of refined confidence. A gentleman knows when to discuss his issues with someone who will understand them, but never breaks down and lets them overwhelm him. In the back when times, this is what was known as “masculinity” or “manliness.”

Today, much of this has been lost in young men and replaced with what many think is masculinity. There is a stiff upper lip and bravado, but both of them fall away and reveal an unconfident, soft core which results in unnecessary violence and harm against the friends and family of the man, traits that are inherently not manly, as masculinity entails the protection and care for the “tribe” at any and all costs, even the death of the man in question. To go back on this role and instead become dangerous to the “tribe” is the ultimate form of betrayal.

The man has a duty to his family, and that includes being a confident gentleman:

The gentleman is a man who is confident when he needs to be, resilient when he has to be, and unyielding when called upon. He follows that duty to take care of his family and to allow his family to take care of him in return. He is not afraid to ask for help when he needs it, and only when he needs it. He ensures his “tribe” is well cared for.

His responsibility, which he puts his every fiber into, is to his family, his country, and in the end, to his God.

Modern men fight. They fight a lot. They:

1. Do not have the same code of honor,
2. Pick fights over trivial things,
3. Pick the wrong time to start fights,
4. Brag when they win, but complain when they lose.
5. They refuse to concede when they have lost.

All five of these are wrong.

1. You fight, you lose, you admit defeat. You fight, you win, you respect your foe. This is the code of gentlemanly, masculine honor. You never fight a fight that has already been won, and you never pick a target that you know has no chance. When the fight is over, that’s that. You pack up and call it a day.
2. You never fight over anything that does not absolutely need to be fought over.
3. If something requires a fight, you only fight fairly, when both parties are facing one another like men. You never throw a swing at the back of a man’s head.
4. You never brag about winning. You never complain about losing. You shake hands and respect one another.
5. You take a loss without allowing it to overwhelm you, and then you come back stronger.

Gentlemen follow the above five guidelines, both in physical fights and in metaphorical (read: arguments, debates, work, war, etc.) fighting. Every fight they fight grows both them and their opponent as people. They gain a mutual respect and eventually they get over their disagreement. The ultimate marker of masculinity is backing yourself when you know you are right, and admitting when you are wrong. Modern society is missing so many of these things.

 

[Guncannon]

Gentlemen of old are a completely misunderstood subsect of men. They are not effeminate— not even by today’s standards.

I've never understood how some people twist "gentleman" into something that's anti-masculine. I blame the anti-Intellectualism and celebration of ignorance that's rampant in this country; that somehow being unhealthy, obnoxious, belligerent, and shunning the learned is "true" masculinity.

I don't agree with all of the article, but I agree that masculinity should be measured by quiet confidence and secureness in your identity.

 

[Cherico]

In the 1960s the social contract that made gentlemen possible was firmly broken.

And lets face facts single mothers and no offense to mothers but women in general cant teach that behavior. Because women do not get or understand the stuff men go through every day. Its why fathers really cant teach their daughters all of the in and outs of femninine behavior its not a skill set they grow up with or really understand.

It takes time to teach a man how to become a gentleman it does not come naturally and you need an environment that rewards a man for such behavior. Maybe that will come back en vogue but not under our current social conditions.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

I have heard RedPillers as in the Red Pill of Dating and so on that talked about how single mothers destroyed their sons by making their sons be someone who is reliable and submissive and easily walked over by them so that said sons will always remain as a source of funds and resources and this leads to said sons when older being walked all over by women and happy to throw thousands away for said women.

 

[Cherico]

I have heard RedPillers as in the Red Pill of Dating and so on that talked about how single mothers destroyed their sons by making their sons be someone who is reliable and submissive a easily walked over by them so that said sons will always remain as a source of funds and resources and this leads to said sons when older being walked all over by women and happy to throw thousands away for said women.

there is some truth to that.

But I don't think its malicious, a lot of women simply do not get or understand the male experience and what we go through. Just like men dont understand the female experience. But men get told and understand they do not understand what women go through. A lot of women are pretty arrogant and assume their wiser and they know better, and thus past down lessons and enforce behavior that leads to failure.

Now if you have an intact family the father will take his son aside away from his wife and tell his boy how the world really works for men. In a single family household that doesnt happen that sets up boys for failure.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Usually I’m not one to blame Men’s rights activists and the whole alpha beta thing, but here it’s especially appropriate. They’ve been a bad influence on nearly a generation of young men

Modern masculinity has been warped into either an eternal search for sex combined with empty bravado, hedonism, and a lack of civility and refinement, or men have become feminized.

Modern concepts of the “Chad” are not gentlemanly. It’s a savage and adolescent concept of what being masculine really means.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Usually I’m not one to blame Men’s rights activists and the whole alpha beta thing, but here it’s especially appropriate. They’ve been a bad influence on nearly a generation of young men

Modern masculinity has been warped into either an eternal search for sex combined with empty bravado, hedonism, and a lack of civility and refinement, or men have become feminized.

Modern concepts of the “Chad” are not gentlemanly. It’s a savage and adolescent concept of what being masculine really means.

It's uncontrolled masculinity is what's going on. They still have the violent and ageessive urges sexually and otherwise. Just without the limiting factor of honor. See honor is a concept created to take masculine energy and focus it for a society's benefit. You remove that limiter and you get raw uncontrolled masculinity. Which is what the modern concept is.

 

[Morphic Tide]

My own off-the-cuff idea on how things ended up is that the concept of the "Gentleman" essentially was torn in two, where the careful control of necessary actions had been concentrated into the managerial classes that had no allowance for the use of force, and thus became the "feminized" upper class we see today where the appearance of strength and morals is unspeakably more important than the truth of them.

Meanwhile, the will to violence became concentrated in the "dregs" of society, because acting upon it became almost impossible to do alongside economic success, so those who have such a will fall into the gutters, leading to open, active, masculinity being increasingly tied to criminal ricitivism, generating the modern "gang culture" where there's no reason to restrain oneself, because the consequence has lost most of its impact from becoming so commonplace as to be a simple fact of life.

 

[Navarro]

My own off-the-cuff idea on how things ended up is that the concept of the "Gentleman" essentially was torn in two, where the careful control of necessary actions had been concentrated into the managerial classes that had no allowance for the use of force, and thus became the "feminized" upper class we see today where the appearance of strength and morals is unspeakably more important than the truth of them.

Meanwhile, the will to violence became concentrated in the "dregs" of society, because acting upon it became almost impossible to do alongside economic success, so those who have such a will fall into the gutters, leading to open, active, masculinity being increasingly tied to criminal ricitivism, generating the modern "gang culture" where there's no reason to restrain oneself, because the consequence has lost most of its impact from becoming so commonplace as to be a simple fact of life.

I literally posted a whole video essay about this:

https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/the-necessity-of-chivalry.3653/

 

[Deleted member 88]

It's uncontrolled masculinity is what's going on. They still have the violent and ageessive urges sexually and otherwise. Just without the limiting factor of honor. See honor is a concept created to take masculine energy and focus it for a society's benefit. You remove that limiter and you get raw uncontrolled masculinity. Which is what the modern concept is.

Yep it’s a lack of discipline. And self restraint. A disciplined man doesn’t chase all the poontang that crosses his path. He has higher things to do with his time, and won’t base his choices on pleasure now.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Yep it’s a lack of discipline. And self restraint. A disciplined man doesn’t chase all the poontang that crosses his path. He has higher things to do with his time, and won’t base his choices on pleasure now.

Sure but discipline is is only half. The other is when to stop being disciplined. Anger and violence can and often are justified. Knowing the difference between justified and not justified is part of being a man.

 

[Bacle]

I have to say, I think part of the issue is that the school system, in it's modern form, is designed for women to succeed in, not men.

Women often do not get that men and women remember/imprint memories differently, on the genetic level. Men also tend to learn better via experiece/working with their hands, not being stuck at a desk all day with a teacher droning on from a textbook or behind a computer screen.

This lack of understanding, and often desire to NOT understand how men form memories differently/learn differently is a big part of why things have gotten so bad and gentlemanly behavior became looked down upon.

Men are better at teaching men, women are better at teaching women, and that's something society seems to have either forgotten or simply chosen to ignore.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I have to say, I think part of the issue is that the school system, in it's modern form, is designed for women to succeed in, not men.

Women often do not get that men and women remember/imprint memories differently, on the genetic level. Men also tend to learn better via experiece/working with their hands, not being stuck at a desk all day with a teacher droning on from a textbook or behind a computer screen.

This lack of understanding, and often desire to NOT understand how men form memories differently/learn differently is a big part of why things have gotten so bad and gentlemanly behavior became looked down upon.

Men are better at teaching men, women are better at teaching women, and that's something society seems to have either forgotten or simply chosen to ignore.

Undermining masculinity is necessary for tyranny. Women don't fight revolutions so you create a generation of cucks. Then continue that program while increasing government power. They don't emasculate men for shits and giggles. It has a point

 

[Bacle]

Undermining masculinity is necessary for tyranny. Women don't fight revolutions so you create a generation of cucks. Then continue that program while increasing government power. They don't emasculate men for shits and giggles. It has a point

I think some of it is purposeful, absolutely.

However some of it is also that, well...Rosie the Riveter is a female icon for a reason. I think a lot of it was how WW2 changed the economic dynamics between men and women, around the globe, and new tech meant women could do jobs that had required male physical strength before.

It's not all one reason or another, not all purposeful, it's more an accumulation of different changes that snowballed together till people realized they could make money/careers off of destroying the concept of a 'gentleman' and male strength as a concept.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I think some of it is purposeful, absolutely.

However some of it is also that, well...Rosie the Riveter is a female icon for a reason. I think a lot of it was how WW2 changed the economic dynamics between men and women, around the globe, and new tech meant women could do jobs that had required male physical strength before.

It's not all one reason or another, not all purposeful, it's more an accumulation of different changes that snowballed together till people realized they could make money/careers off of destroying the concept of a 'gentleman' and male strength as a concept.

So useful idiots being directed by malious actors. I can agree with that

 

[Deleted member 88]

There was a back to the kitchen movement after WW2. Thing is the pill and the sixties ruined everything.

 

[Duke Nukem]

It's a shame social relations are such a disaster.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

Usually I’m not one to blame Men’s rights activists and the whole alpha beta thing, but here it’s especially appropriate. They’ve been a bad influence on nearly a generation of young men

Modern masculinity has been warped into either an eternal search for sex combined with empty bravado, hedonism, and a lack of civility and refinement, or men have become feminized.

Modern concepts of the “Chad” are not gentlemanly. It’s a savage and adolescent concept of what being masculine really means.

I have brought this up before in the Yandere thread that got derailed cause of ships nonsense.

We have a generation of men who fundamentally have nothing about them that makes them them. Just a generic nice guy whether thats actual nice or the meme "Nice guy" . The bad boy has personality compared to the previous in womens eyes. They only have money which they try and use to get women or experience the GF experience hence throwing thousands away to streamers, ASMR, etc.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Which is why men shouldn't focus on women or sex. Have a personality, your own interests, tastes, etc...

The gentlemen knows how to behave in public but he isn't interchangeable with every other man.

He reads, he forms his own beliefs, he thinks for himself, he has his particular interests, as well as things he dislikes.

He has a great level of self actualization.

If your only appeal to women is-"uh I'm normal and nice", then yes she's going to choose the bad boy every time. The bad boy is at least half interesting.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Which is why men shouldn't focus on women or sex. Have a personality, your own interests, tastes, etc...

The gentlemen knows how to behave in public but he isn't interchangeable with every other man.

He reads, he forms his own beliefs, he thinks for himself, he has his particular interests, as well as things he dislikes.

He has a great level of self actualization.

If your only appeal to women is-"uh I'm normal and nice", then yes she's going to choose the bad boy every time. The bad boy is at least half interesting.

Hilariously if you act like a man women will be all over you. "The Nice Guys" dont seem to grok this.