Religion Religion, Atheism and Relation to Basis of Morality

LordsFire

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In their founding, sure they had reasons. But their followers in modern times? You would need to be a scholar or do extensive research to know the exact reasoning behind it.

Modern morality is so far divergent from the morality of the big religious groups that it's meaningless. Modern morals have logic and reasoning behind them before, and even completely lacking, faith.

Morality based off faith first, such as Shariah law, is not logical or compatible with modern society.

No, it's not hypocritical. Because I am saying "Religious Morality." Not "Morality" in general.
1. I am a scholar of Christianity. I study Philosophy and Theology in general, and the history of Christianity in particular. Biblically, it is a requirement of Christianity to be a philosopher and theologian. Not everyone follows this, but it is absolutely part of what is supposed to be.

2. On the contrary, most modern morality has little to no logic or reasoning behind them. Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's, secular philosophers were confidently asserting that religion (Christianity in particular) were superfluous to a moral society. Immanuel Kant in particular asserted that he would be able to arrive at morality by pure reason.

He failed.

Nietsche, on the other hand, famously claimed that 'god was dead,' and that as a consequence, the 20th century would become the bloodiest in all of history, and he was absolutely right. He was an atheist himself, but he was honest about what the consequences would be, and in the 20th century, atheistic regimes started wars and slaughtered and starved their own people resulting in more than a hundred million dead.

3. Sharia is absolutely not compatible with modern western society. Modern western legal systems were founded on Christian morality though, and part of why current justice systems are becoming so messy, is they're shifting in post-modernist directions.

4. So, 'anyone who disagrees with my religious beliefs isn't allowed to take part in public discourse on morality.' Pretty standard modern secularist debate tactic, really.


Something you need to understand, is that Atheism and Agnosticism are religious beliefs. Sure, they're beliefs that God either doesn't exist, or you can't tell if God exists, but those are massively significant philosophical and theological assumptions, and have commensurately immense implications for morality.

As evidenced, again, by the massive bloodshed of atheist regimes of the 20th century.

Now to be very clear, I am not trying to claim that all atheists, agnostics, or secularists, are of the sort of character that the communists and fascists were and are. Not at all.

What I am claiming, is that Communist Russia is just as logical a moral outflowing of atheism as is the UN. Atheism imparts no fundamental moral law to the universe, and reduces mankind to nothing more than a particularly sophisticated aggregation of matter functioning as a biochemical computer. In atheism and most forms of agnosticism, morality is nothing more and less than a matter of personal preference.

Funny though, how most atheists in the US simply inherit the most part of their morality from cultural inertia of Christianity, discarding the bits and pieces they (or their parents) didn't like, usually the bits about sexual restraint.

I am not going to try to claim that all Christians (or followers of any other religion that does believe in the divine) all have thought through the moral teachings of their faith logically. With Christianity at least, I can claim that those who haven't, are in fact violating the morality of Christianity not doing so.

I will absolutely claim that the overwhelming majority of atheists and agnostics have given little or no thought whatsoever to a logically coherent morality.


To tie this back around to the original issue of the thread, this is part of why Democrats try so hard to push churches to either submit to their political agenda, or get out of politics completely. Because as long as people have loyalty to something higher than the state and the ruling class, they will resist attempts by their 'betters' to tell them how to live their lives.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

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honestly I tend to just not worry too much about my personal morality... well, ok, beyond "my right to swing my fist stops at your face"
 

CarlManvers2019

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honestly I tend to just not worry too much about my personal morality... well, ok, beyond "my right to swing my fist stops at your face"
Say, what about Objectivist Atheism? How exactly does that stuff work? Because I’m guessing there is something near-Libertarian in it
 

almostinsane

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A lack of belief is not a belief. It seems to me that religious people have some strange need to see everyone else in terms of their own religion. Like they need validation or something by believing that atheists are actually religious in some way.
A lack of belief is a philosophical position and it affects the way you see things as much as a religion affects a practitioner.

What @lightningshoulder proposes would, in fact, preclude religious people from participating in the democratic process at all as every belief or non-belief a person holds plays a role in shaping their philosophy and therefore their political positions. It will devolve into a witch hunt where the socialist left will dissect their opponent's personal life to prove that their positions come from religion and are therefore counter-revolutionary, I mean, invalid.
 

FriedCFour

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A lack of belief is not a belief. It seems to me that religious people have some strange need to see everyone else in terms of their own religion. Like they need validation or something by believing that atheists are actually religious in some way.
A lack of belief is absolutely a belief. You can't describe it in any other way "I believe there is no god." It's an assertion with its own impact, its own theology and theologians.
 

CarlManvers2019

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How do you know that the switch is off?
Maybe when the atheist simply put is VERY apathetic and uncaring about morality and is more of “Do whatever I have to, don’t bother me, I don’t care about politics” sorts

I believe that people can in a way be religious even if they’re NOT worshipping a God/s or believe in supernatural entities

They just have to repeatedly go on about how morally right certain stances they have are

Like obsessing over “Diversity” and saying anybody who’s against possible Sharia law’s a Nazi

It’s “Altruism” in the Ayn Rand sense of blindly following a set of beliefs, person or organization and going on about how “right” and “for the good of others” it is that in a way counts as a “religion”

Or even apply it to things like Climate Change, you guys already have figures like Greta Gutenberg as high priests for it

Try to prove both ideas in practice are wrong and you’re a fucking heretic or pagan
 

LordsFire

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A lack of belief is not a belief. It seems to me that religious people have some strange need to see everyone else in terms of their own religion. Like they need validation or something by believing that atheists are actually religious in some way.
In terms of philosophical consequences, it absolutely is. Your beliefs about the nature of morality is informed by your beliefs about the divine.

If you believe Man is created in God's Image, and was designed to best live in certain ways, that informs your morality.

If you believe God does not exist, and man is the result of time+matter+chance, that informs your morality.

If you are uncertain if God exists, and what man's relation to him is, that informs your morality.

I'm not saying this is the only thing that informs your morality, but it absolutely is a very large factor.
 

CarlManvers2019

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Politics is downstream from religion.

Unless politics is your religion.
From what I can tell regarding Western-Left-Aligned-Atheists, their politics maybe close enough to their religion.

They'll keep going on about crusades and inquisitions whilst weirdly enough being in love with Islam more than any other religion they bash and "satirise"
 

Scottty

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From what I can tell regarding Western-Left-Aligned-Atheists, their politics maybe close enough to their religion.

They'll keep going on about crusades and inquisitions whilst weirdly enough being in love with Islam more than any other religion they bash and "satirise"
Yes - when they rant on about how they don't want society to be ruled by "religion", the religion they describe starts to sound far more like Islam than like Christianity.
And yet - those same people will not apply their anti-religion arguments to Islam, but only to Christianity.
Because it's not really about any of the things they pretend it's about - they just hate Christianity.
 

Terthna

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Yes - when they rant on about how they don't want society to be ruled by "religion", the religion they describe starts to sound far more like Islam than like Christianity.
And yet - those same people will not apply their anti-religion arguments to Islam, but only to Christianity.
Because it's not really about any of the things they pretend it's about - they just hate Christianity.
Speaking as a former atheist, but now agnostic theist, it is maddening to see the atheist community at large refuse to call out the issues prevalent in Islam.
 

CarlManvers2019

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Yes - when they rant on about how they don't want society to be ruled by "religion", the religion they describe starts to sound far more like Islam than like Christianity.
And yet - those same people will not apply their anti-religion arguments to Islam, but only to Christianity.
Because it's not really about any of the things they pretend it's about - they just hate Christianity.
They’ve been indoctrinated by Hollywood and want to just keep giving the middle finger to their parents or grandparents who in the first place are more understanding and tolerant or have grown MUCH more understanding and tolerant by their own
 

CarlManvers2019

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Speaking as a former atheist, but now agnostic theist, it is maddening to see the atheist community at large refuse to call out the issues prevalent in Islam.
Blame Hollywood for making them an underdog

Speaking of Atheism and it being Left Aligned

Why is it so concerned and controlling about and for the sake of “Others”?

Ayn Rand’s idea of “For Others” involves being yes-men and unquestioning followers and repeated belief that what they are doing is for “The Greater Good” even if they prove to be morons

Why not start off with being an Atheist who admits to mainly caring about or for himself?
 
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