Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
That's the best you can do? Namecalling? You can't even be bothered to google shit before saying shit anymore.
1 and 5 kilotons respectively. And wtf do you mean by " contend with something built to intercept ICBMs"? In the 50's and 60's? What? Flying saucers?

Yes, i will insist on pushing my side of the argument, also known as the anti-nonsense side, because made up nonsense is all you have come up with so far.
Range and speed-wise an ASAT/ABM would be superior to a regular anti-aircraft missile because surprise surprise, ICBMs fly higher, are faster, and might need more damage to be taken out.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
The oligarchs and the bureaucracy that lick foreign ass on the other hand are on the side of whoever threatens them the most and gives them the biggest bribes.
Fair enough.

I was mainly referring to the official govt.
aka the oligarchs and their followers.

Naturally there are different factions within each country with differing opinions.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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The F 35 isn't replacing the F22 though.
It is just a platform for multi role not purely air dominance
 

Marduk

Well-known member
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Range and speed-wise an ASAT/ABM would be superior to a regular anti-aircraft missile because surprise surprise, ICBMs fly higher, are faster, and might need more damage to be taken out.
But we are not in the 60's anymore, now systems like Patriot and S-400 are both SAM and ABM, with some of their missiles more optimized for one role or another, but the system is the same.
 

AmosTrask

Well-known member
I literally mean do you have evidence Russian and Chinese stuff was used on the raptor
Just reread the article. You are correct. It was the F-35 that had Chinese parts. The F-22 schematics were sold by Honeywell to China. Somehow I mixed up the two articles.

The maintenance of F-16C is 22500 USD per flight hour. An F-22A can run as high as 68000 USD. Jesus Christ that's expensive. That's the running cost of that Indian steel magnate billionaire's personal skyscraper mansion.
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Just reread the article. You are correct. It was the F-35 that had Chinese parts. The F-22 schematics. Somehow I mixed up the two articles.

The maintenance of F-16C is 22500 USD per flight hour. An F-22A can run as high as 68000 USD. Jesus Christ that's expensive. That's the running cost of that Indian steel magnate billionaire's personal skyscraper mansion.
Yes, but it is still the most powerful and effective air supremecy fighter
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Yeah, how many kilotons?

Oh, yeah, right, they were probably sub-kiloton.

Speed-wise, I doubt they would have been able to contend with something built to intercept ICBMs.

And we all know the Eternal Bronekokoshka will say and do anything to push his side of the argument across so...

Wrong on both counts. The RIM-8 carried a five kiloton W30 warhead, and sustained flight speed over Mach 3.0. It's comparable in performance to the modern Standard missile that replaced it; the Standard's primary advantage is achieving Talos-tier range and performance with a Terrier-sized missile, and then later versions have of course enjoyed substantial refinement in their electronics end.

Of course, those refinements easily backfit to Talos, and if anyone ever cared to bring back Tython...
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
This man is hilarious! Lazerpig can make any topic amusing! I'd forgotten about the T-95 bullshit bluff they pulled in the 90's

His video unfortunately is full of absolute bullshit.
Protip, the X-12 Armata engine has nothing to do with the Sla.16 X-16 engine.
And the Porsche Tiger never used said engine to begin with, it didn't even ever use a diesel.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Wrong on both counts. The RIM-8 carried a five kiloton W30 warhead, and sustained flight speed over Mach 3.0. It's comparable in performance to the modern Standard missile that replaced it; the Standard's primary advantage is achieving Talos-tier range and performance with a Terrier-sized missile, and then later versions have of course enjoyed substantial refinement in their electronics end.

Of course, those refinements easily backfit to Talos, and if anyone ever cared to bring back Tython...
This one?


Wingspan280 cm (110 in)
Operational
range
RIM-8J 241 km (130 nm); RIM-8A: 92 km (50 nm)
Flight ceiling24,400 m (80,100 ft)
Maximum speedMach 3

240 kilometers range(with what payload?), Mach 3, 24km flight ceiling so suborbital.
meanwhile the distance from Tallinn to Moscow is about 900 km. So, yeah, not really, it does not have the range and assuming sea launch there would be time for Moscow's ABM and other defenses to be engaged, and what about precision?
Can it take out a specific hardened command bunker, or several?
You and Marduk are talking nonsense again, and at mach 3 that would still give a bunch of early warning radars and ABM systems time to take it out.



Meanwhile, here is an actual ABM, and you can probably fit a decent-sized payload or even a hypersonic glide vehicle on that thing:

800px-OBV_GBI_1.jpg


Specifications
Mass21,600 kg [1]
Length16.61 m [1]
Diameter1.28 m [1]
WarheadExoatmospheric Kill Vehicle

Oh, and here is how the Russian ABM looks like:
Specifications
Mass33,000-45,000kg (73,000-100,000lb)
Length19.8 m[1]
Diameter2.57m[1][2]
Blast yield10 kilotonnes of TNT (42 TJ)

Engine2-stage solid fuel
Operational
range
350-900km[2]
Flight ceiling350-900km
Maximum speed Mach 7 (8,600 km/h; 5,300 mph; 2.4 km/s)
Launch
platform
silo, launcher(?)[2][3]
 
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Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
This one?


Wingspan280 cm (110 in)
Operational
range
RIM-8J 241 km (130 nm); RIM-8A: 92 km (50 nm)
Flight ceiling24,400 m (80,100 ft)
Maximum speedMach 3

240 kilometers range(with what payload?), Mach 3, 24km flight ceiling so suborbital.
meanwhile the distance from Tallinn to Moscow is about 900 km. So, yeah, not really, it does not have the range and assuming sea launch there would be time for Moscow's ABM and other defenses to be engaged, and what about precision?
Can it take out a specific hardened command bunker, or several?
You and Marduk are talking nonsense again, and at mach 3 that would still give a bunch of early warning radars and ABM systems time to take it out.
Nonsense? Nothing near your time-traveling Muscovite ABM.
Meanwhile Talos was already in service during Vietnam war. There was no functional ABM near Moscow then.
And you still cannot address the point that if USA really wanted such sneak decapitation strike capability, building a fake ABM facility with a handful of tubes is about the least sneaky and least cost efficient way to do it (you have to put powerful radars of few types there and test them or it will be clear they are fake), while container, submarine or air delivery, sometimes with already existing hardware, are also an option, and even in that case it's a long shot, because if sneaky decapitation strikes were a good solution to second strike capability, USA, Russia and other nuclear powers would not spend such big money on building theirs.

Oh, and here is how the Russian ABM looks like:
Specifications
Mass33,000-45,000kg (73,000-100,000lb)
Length19.8 m[1]
Diameter2.57m[1][2]
Blast yield10 kilotonnes of TNT (42 TJ)

Engine2-stage solid fuel
Operational
range
350-900km[2]
Flight ceiling350-900km
Maximum speedMach 7 (8,600 km/h; 5,300 mph; 2.4 km/s)
Launch
platform
silo, launcher(?)[2][3]
Important part:
In service1995–present
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Nonsense? Nothing near your time-traveling Muscovite ABM.
Meanwhile Talos was already in service during Vietnam war. There was no functional ABM near Moscow then.
And you still cannot address the point that if USA really wanted such sneak decapitation strike capability, building a fake ABM facility with a handful of tubes is about the least sneaky and least cost efficient way to do it (you have to put powerful radars of few types there and test them or it will be clear they are fake), while container, submarine or air delivery, sometimes with already existing hardware, are also an option, and even in that case it's a long shot, because if sneaky decapitation strikes were a good solution to second strike capability, USA, Russia and other nuclear powers would not spend such big money on building theirs.

Important part:
Can you even into English?!?!

We are talking about range, payload and size of ordnance here, because you were like, muh civillian ship with a container that has some such missile hidden in it.

I respond by providing concrete info about the missile you are fanboying and compare it to what the Russians and the Americans are using as ABMs RIGHT NOW!
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Can you even into English?!?!

We are talking about range, payload and size of ordnance here, because you were like, muh civillian ship with a container that has some such missile hidden in it.
Well if we are talking about modern systems, Pershing 2\Tomahawk\Iskander grade systems can be fit into a 40ft container format, and obviously a TEL system can be transported by any military or civilian semi-truck transport capable RoRo class ship.
For yet another time, i have to ask - what's the bloody point of "hiding" secret sneaky decapitation nukes as ABM, when USA can do the same job better with ALCMs, submarines,
and could have even done it with creative application of retired (but in one case easily brought back) TEL systems, among other more exotic methods, all with sufficient range and payload, if it ever wanted to do said job to begin with?
I respond by providing concrete info about the missile you are fanboying and compare it to what the Russians and the Americans are using as ABMs RIGHT NOW!
To what fucking point? Yes, of course newer systems are better, water is wet, and you are still dodging the bulk of the argument.
 
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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Well if we are talking about modern systems, Pershing 2\Tomahawk\Iskander grade systems can be fit into a 40ft container format, and obviously a TEL system can be transported by any military or civilian semi-truck transport capable RoRo class ship.
For yet another time, i have to ask - what's the bloody point of "hiding" secret sneaky decapitation nukes as ABM, when USA can do the same job better with ALCMs, submarines,
and could have even done it with creative application of retired (but in one case easily brought back) TEL systems, among other more exotic methods, all with sufficient range and payload, if it ever wanted to do said job to begin with?

To what fucking point? Yes, of course newer systems are better, water is wet, and you are still dodging the bulk of the argument.
No dude, I am saying that an ABM, like what you will see at an ABM site is huge, much larger, faster and with longer range than the Anti-aircraft missile you and the other guy are showing.

So it will be fairly easy to convert one to carry a nuclear warhead for a thousand kilometers and/or a hydroponics weapon.

You are a broken record, again.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
No dude, I am saying that an ABM, like what you will see at an ABM site is huge, much larger, faster and with longer range than the Anti-aircraft missile you and the other guy are showing.
Modernish ABM. And not the AEGIS BMD one that would be based in Europe anyway, GBI is different, not compatible with Mk41. Versus AA missile from the fucking 50's.
So it will be fairly easy to convert one to carry a nuclear warhead for a thousand kilometers and/or a hydroponics weapon.

You are a broken record, again.
WTF is a hydroponics weapon?
Also, just because it can be theoretically done, we enter a true paranoia world if we allow anyone run with the assumption that any weapon system that can carry an equal or larger warhead than a 155mm artillery shell can be randomly assumed to be actually a nuclear weapon, because it could be.

But it's all pointless theorizing, as in the end, USA has called their bullshit bluff out with a simple offer.
 
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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Modernish ABM. And not the AEGIS BMD one that would be based in Europe anyway, GBI is different, not compatible with Mk41. Versus AA missile from the fucking 50's.
Modernish, like those the USA has in Alaska?
WTF is a hydroponics weapon?
Hypersonic weapon.
Also, just because it can be theoretically done, we enter a true paranoia world if we allow anyone run with the assumption that any weapon system that can carry an equal or larger warhead than a 155mm artillery shell can be randomly assumed to be actually a nuclear weapon, because it could be.
Of what yield.
And again, there are ways to detect nuclear weapons, so your shell will need lead shielding around it.
But it's all pointless theorizing, as in the end, USA has called their bullshit bluff out with a simple offer.
Yeah, sure, then they will have to expand the base and add larger missiles thet are the next iterstion of this and can just boost a hypersonic glide vehicle to the altitude and speed for the ramjet to work....

And the Russians are supposed to believe someone who lied to them about NATO not moving an inch east?

Fat chance.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member

Modernish, like those the USA has in Alaska?
It's almost 2 decades old and replacements are supposed to come in next few years.
Hypersonic weapon.
Again, you can theoretically slap that on anything that can carry a decently sized cruise or ballistic missile. Anything.
Of what yield.
Whatever is decided to be most optimal for the role and fits the weight/size restrictions of the warhead.
100-150 kg range, which is what S-300's are at, is already pretty damn generous compared to artillery shells, while 400-500 kg is the norm for cruise missiles, and that can fit any reasonable warhead - ye olde nuclear Tomahawks had 200kt, and it could easily take a stronger warhead if anyone wanted it (strategic weapons do have stronger warheads that weight less).
Artillery shells themselves, due to size, weight and robustness restrictions generally didn't go beyond 2kt for 6 inch class and 10kt for 8 inch class, with rockets and cruise missiles that have warhead weights around mid to high 3 digit kg, there are plenty enough options.
This is a good example of... peak 50's nuclear miniaturization.
203mm, 10 kilotons, whole shell, not just warhead being 110kg. With experimental 40kt one cancelled but probably doable. Imagine what kind of stuff could be made with today's tech, especially if you plan to put it on top of a missile, without making it robust enough to fire out of a cannon.
And again, there are ways to detect nuclear weapons, so your shell will need lead shielding around it.
Those ways are not really effective for detecting flying aircraft with nuclear weapons, nevermind missiles, otherwise stealth nuclear bombers would be pointless. They work best for... slow and methodical scanning for stationary facilities. Apparently it's not that great even for something as mobile as trucks, considering how Russia, China, NK and Pakistan still aren't scrapping their truck TEL based strategic missiles.

Yeah, sure, then they will have to expand the base and add larger missiles thet are the next iterstion of this and can just boost a hypersonic glide vehicle to the altitude and speed for the ramjet to work....
So the argument is that the base in the plans as they are now is completely fine, but in the future theoretically USA could build a completely different base on top of it with completely different launchers that will contain completely different, bigger missiles that are exactly what Russia is justified to fear now!
(Though let's not mention that USA could equally theoretically slap these hypothetical nuclear hypersonics on a SSGN and more sneakily park it anywhere on Med, Baltic or polar seas for unpredictable trajectory for better effect if it really wanted to go for a decapitation strike, ditto for stealth bombers).

Ok then, why aren't we treating every Russian presence anywhere, if it contains any missiles of ABM class or larger (aka S-300+), as if it was going to be replaced with dozens of nuclear tipped Zircons, Sarmats or Burevestniks sometime soon?
Yeah, because that would make us look cray-cray.
If Russia wants to do that, that means either they have gone cray-cray, or are pretending to in a malicious quest to get real concessions for mere cessation of such pretense, in which case the same should be done to them in retaliation.
And the Russians are supposed to believe someone who lied to them about NATO not moving an inch east?

Fat chance.
It's not a lie if you made up a convenient verbal promise (not a deal, some kind of idiotic good hearted promise made for nothing given in exchange that both sides knew that could not be binding due to nature of democratic governance), and never spoke of it until a reason to be butthurt at the West was needed, but not before.
Meanwhile Russia has broken an actual promise made in writing in Budapest Memorandum.
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I can assure you the US has no intentions to put anything closer to Russia.
The goal has always been to have subs be the closest we get afaik
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
It's almost 2 decades old and replacements are supposed to come in next few years.

Again, you can theoretically slap that on anything that can carry a decently sized cruise or ballistic missile. Anything.

Whatever is decided to be most optimal for the role and fits the weight/size restrictions of the warhead.
100-150 kg range, which is what S-300's are at, is already pretty damn generous compared to artillery shells, while 400-500 kg is the norm for cruise missiles, and that can fit any reasonable warhead - ye olde nuclear Tomahawks had 200kt, and it could easily take a stronger warhead if anyone wanted it (strategic weapons do have heavier warheads that weight less).
Artillery shells themselves, due to size, weight and robustness restrictions generally didn't go beyond 2kt for 6 inch class and 10kt for 8 inch class, with rockets and cruise missiles that have warhead weights around mid to high 3 digit kg, there are plenty enough options.
This is a good example of... peak 50's nuclear miniaturization.
203mm, 10 kilotons, whole shell, not just warhead being 110kg. With experimental 40kt one cancelled but probably doable. Imagine what kind of stuff could be made with today's tech, especially if you plan to put it on top of a missile, without making it robust enough to fire out of a cannon.

Those ways are not really effective for detecting flying aircraft with nuclear weapons, nevermind missiles, otherwise stealth nuclear bombers would be pointless. They work best for... slow and methodical scanning for stationary facilities. Apparently it's not that great even for something as mobile as trucks, considering how Russia, China, NK and Pakistan still aren't scrapping their truck TEL based strategic missiles.


So the argument is that the base in the plans as they are now is completely fine, but in the future theoretically USA could build a completely different base on top of it with completely different launchers that will contain completely different, bigger missiles that are exactly what Russia is justified to fear now!
(Though let's not mention that USA could equally theoretically slap these hypothetical nuclear hypersonics on a SSGN and more sneakily part it anywhere on Med, Baltic or polar seas for unpredictable trajectory for better effect if it really wanted to go for a decapitation strike, ditto for stealth bombers).

Ok then, why aren't we treating every Russian presence anywhere, if it contains any missiles of ABM class or larger (aka S-300+), as if it was going to be replaced with dozens of nuclear tipped Zircons, Sarmats or Burevestniks sometime soon?
Yeah, because that would make us look cray-cray.
If Russia wants to do that, that means either they have gone cray-cray, or are pretending to in a malicious quest to get real concessions for mere cessation of such pretense, in which case the same should be done to them in retaliation.

It's not a lie if you made up a convenient verbal promise (not a deal, some kind of idiotic good hearted promise made for nothing given in exchange that both sides knew that could not be binding due to nature of democratic governance), and never spoke of it until a reason to be butthurt at the West was needed, but not before.
Meanwhile Russia has broken an actual promise made in writing in Budapest Memorandum.
Yeah, sure, I have to believe you because you just randomly googled some stuff to try and prove your usual angle.
 
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